Sep 22, 2021 01:03:10 AM by Piotr O
Good day to all!
An interesting case (at least for an UpWork rookie like me). For a small job, the client offered $10.00. I bid $25. She started a conversation via UW messages. We agreed on the $20.00, as it is really a small job she needs to be delivered today by 11.00 am Greenwich time sharp. Job done. I've looked into the project to realize that the budget states $20.00, but there is only $10.00 on the Escrow account - she has created 2 milestones: "before review" and "final". I have messaged the client asking to feed the Escrow with the 10 bucks missing so I can submit the work. She's silent for now. Ok, still over an hour to the deadline.
But....here it gets interesting - I've tried to check if I was clear on the $20 deal and if she clearly agreed to this. Oppps....all messages are gone, aside from the contract. Honestly, I am not sure what to do now. As a newbie here, I have a limited number of jobs completed so I take such small jobs to boost the stats. I would not want to have an argument and lose some credibility if she reports I have not submitted the work (which I can submit in a matter of 5 seconds cos it is ready). The $20 budget and 2 milestones $10 each seem to indicate she understood and agreed to the final price.
Of course, I can "fire and forget", meaning that I can send the work and trust that the missing 10 dollars will be paid into Escrow and to my account one day - not such a big deal. But, if there is some idea behind paying only 10 and not 20, I do not like being ripped off, at least not before noon 😉
What course of action would you recommend? Thanks in advance!
Piotr
Sep 22, 2021 01:12:01 AM by Goran V
Hi Piotr,
I checked your contract and I can confirm that you have 2 milestones for $10. Please keep in mind that once the first milestone is paid, the client will be able to fund the second milestone.
You can communicate with your client about getting paid the full amount under one milestone, or delivering the agreed work only for the first milestone.
Please keep in mind that our fixed price protection for freelancers does not cover promised funds and unfunded milestones.
To learn more about how you're protected on fixed price contracts, check out this Help Article. Thank you.
Sep 22, 2021 01:57:01 AM by Piotr O
Goran V wrote:Hi Piotr,
I checked your contract and I can confirm that you have 2 milestones for $10. Please keep in mind that once the first milestone is paid, the client will be able to fund the second milestone.
You can communicate with your client about getting paid the full amount under one milestone, or delivering the agreed work only for the first milestone.
Please keep in mind that our fixed price protection for freelancers does not cover promised funds and unfunded milestones.
To learn more about how you're protected on fixed price contracts, check out this Help Article. Thank you.
Hi Goran, thanks for the reply.
Exactly that is sth I am not sure I understand correctly. Does the client have to pay for M1 to be able to fund the M2? I thought she could just pay 20 into the Escrow and then divide it into 10 and 10. I am even OK with someone reviewing the work and paying the balance after it is reviewed (although it is not a welcome concept) but I would feel better seeing the whole sum in Escrow. I do not know the client so I cannot assess if she will do what is agreed or not. I would just clarify if she technically can feed the Escrow for two milestones in advance, and release them once the job is submitted.
Splitting a short paper into two parts seems even more ridiculous than breaking up the payment into two milestones 🙂 But maybe that is what I should do.
Sep 22, 2021 02:01:18 AM by Goran V
Hi Piotr,
I would like to confirm that when you have multiple milestones on your contract, the client will not be able to activate the second milestone unless the first one is paid.
I would recommend to communicate directly with your client about the budget. I would also like to clarify that once you've submitted your work, the client will have 14 days to review your work and approve the payment. Thank you.
Sep 22, 2021 02:03:12 AM by Petra R
Piotr O wrote:
Does the client have to pay for M1 to be able to fund the M2?
Yes
I would never accept a small contract with 2 small milestones. It is just needless fuss.
Now you have agreed, what are the two milestones defined as?
Sep 22, 2021 02:16:36 AM Edited Sep 22, 2021 02:17:50 AM by Piotr O
The milestones are named "before review" and "full payments". My mistake, I didn't look closely, just saw 20 in the budget column and did not check if the are milestones at all and if they are funded - small job, short deadline, not enough focus on my side, lesson learned. The milestones are strange a bit, too.
So - the final situation is that I need to send my work and once the client pays me, she will then be able to fund the second milestone and release it. But there is nothing that is obligating her to do the second part. Am I correct?
PS. Why the messages have evaporated?
Sep 22, 2021 02:30:53 AM by Goran V
Hi Piotr,
I checked your messages but I was not able to locate any deleted messages. Please keep in mind that you have two message rooms with your client. You can find them by entering your client name in the search bar on the left. If you're still not able to locate the messages you're referring to, please reach out to me via PM (click on my name) with more details. Thank you.
Sep 22, 2021 02:36:21 AM Edited Sep 22, 2021 02:57:11 AM by Piotr O
Thanks, Goran! I have sent a message to the client asking for making only one milestone and funding 20 into Escrow - I hope she will do it. It is all already taking up too much of everyone's time for the 10 dollar bill. If she doesn't do it, I will probably submit the work anyway and - in the worst-case scenario - "invest" my other 10 dollars in the training of being more detail-oriented when accepting contracts.
Thank you all for helping!
Update: I have sent my work so she can meet her deadline.
Sep 22, 2021 02:52:33 AM by Aleksandar D
Hi Piotr,
There are two message rooms with the client you're referring to. Could you please check the second one in case the message you're referring to is there? You should be able to access it directly on this link.
Thank you.
Sep 22, 2021 02:58:52 AM Edited Sep 22, 2021 03:00:43 AM by Piotr O
Aleksandar D wrote:Hi Piotr,
There are two message rooms with the client you're referring to. Could you please check the second one in case the message you're referring to is there? You should be able to access it directly on this link.
Thank you.
Thank you Aleksandar, yes, I have found them. OK, thanks again for helping me out. Let's see what will happen 🙂
Sep 22, 2021 06:10:01 AM by Phyllis G
Piotr O wrote:Thanks, Goran! I have sent a message to the client asking for making only one milestone and funding 20 into Escrow - I hope she will do it. It is all already taking up too much of everyone's time for the 10 dollar bill. If she doesn't do it, I will probably submit the work anyway and - in the worst-case scenario - "invest" my other 10 dollars in the training of being more detail-oriented when accepting contracts.
Thank you all for helping!
Update: I have sent my work so she can meet her deadline.
Good that you have embraced one lesson: check every detail before accepting a contract. (Especially given that the client UI can be kind of opaque and clients who are using UW for the first time or who only use it occasionally will often be careless about details.)
Second lesson: Small, quick projects are good for building your job history but they can be more trouble than they're worth. You can wind up spending the same amount of time on admin details for a $20 project as for a $200 or $2,000 project. And a client who is only spending $20 may be less trusting and/or more difficult to please than the one who is investing more, has more confidence in her own judgement and values your work appropriately. While projects are weighted by dollar value in your JSS calculation, when you first start out and have very few, each one weighs a lot and it's a shame to risk sub-par client feedback for $20.
BTW, this tiny lecture is not for you, Piotr, you have been working in the business world long enough to figure this out. It's for inexperienced FLs who may be reading along. (IMO the community forum is most valuable for generating a book of knowledge about how to use the platform successfully. It's the real 'help and support' encycolpedia.)
Sep 22, 2021 11:09:33 AM by Piotr O
Phyllis G wrote:BTW, this tiny lecture is not for you, Piotr, you have been working in the business world long enough to figure this out. It's for inexperienced FLs who may be reading along. (IMO the community forum is most valuable for generating a book of knowledge about how to use the platform successfully. It's the real 'help and support' encycolpedia.)
I am never too old or too experienced to skip the chance to listen to a little lecture - thank you!
A LITTLE UPDATE:
The situation has evolved as expected – the client has canceled a second milestone and sent me a message stating that she does not need my work anymore (the work was submitted in full, ahead of the agreed deadline). I have politely expressed my astonishment and asked to be paid the remaining balance. I do not expect any reply, let alone the payment to be made.
So, I was beautifully ripped off. My fault, no one is to blame here but me – a client took advantage of my lack of experience with milestones’ management.
As much as I cherish every dollar I earn, I couldn’t care less now about extracting this unpaid 10-dollar bill out of her. It’s time for damage control, and I would ask you kindly to allow me to benefit from your broad experience and advise me on the following:
How should I act now to prevent any damage to my account stats? I’m new here, do not have the JSS rating yet, so I am extra cautious not to make any irrational moves that would negatively affect any of my scores and statistics.
Additionally – the client is not new to the UW. Interestingly, I realized now she has hired 2 freelancers for this job! I would be happy to inform other freelancers of the situation, so they take extra care if they decide to work with her. I am afraid though, that giving negative feedback to the client will result in negative feedback for me – and this is definitely something I would like to avoid. Any ideas? Should I just bury this whole thing?
The combined number of words I wrote in this thread is already roughly twice the size of the project itself – and I don’t count your kind answers and support offered. What a waste of energy…
Sep 22, 2021 11:13:06 AM Edited Sep 22, 2021 11:13:59 AM by Preston H
If I had a cousin who hired a freelancer to do a job for $10.
And then the freelancer DID that work and sent that work to my cousin.
And then my cousin decided that she didn't need the work, so she tried to weasel out of paying the freelancer for his work?
I would think that my cousin was being very silly indeed.
And being a brat.
And a thief.
Sep 22, 2021 11:25:17 AM by Petra R
Piotr O wrote:I am afraid though, that giving negative feedback to the client will result in negative feedback for me
Feedback is double blind.... meaning that the other party has no idea of the feedback you left until they left theirs or it is too late to leave any feedback at all. So please DO leave honest and factual feedback. It can't do you any harm.
Sep 22, 2021 05:45:13 PM by Phyllis G
Piotr O wrote:
Phyllis G wrote:BTW, this tiny lecture is not for you, Piotr, you have been working in the business world long enough to figure this out. It's for inexperienced FLs who may be reading along. (IMO the community forum is most valuable for generating a book of knowledge about how to use the platform successfully. It's the real 'help and support' encycolpedia.)
I am never too old or too experienced to skip the chance to listen to a little lecture - thank you!
A LITTLE UPDATE:
The situation has evolved as expected – the client has canceled a second milestone and sent me a message stating that she does not need my work anymore (the work was submitted in full, ahead of the agreed deadline). I have politely expressed my astonishment and asked to be paid the remaining balance. I do not expect any reply, let alone the payment to be made.
So, I was beautifully ripped off. My fault, no one is to blame here but me – a client took advantage of my lack of experience with milestones’ management.
As much as I cherish every dollar I earn, I couldn’t care less now about extracting this unpaid 10-dollar bill out of her. It’s time for damage control, and I would ask you kindly to allow me to benefit from your broad experience and advise me on the following:
How should I act now to prevent any damage to my account stats? I’m new here, do not have the JSS rating yet, so I am extra cautious not to make any irrational moves that would negatively affect any of my scores and statistics.
Additionally – the client is not new to the UW. Interestingly, I realized now she has hired 2 freelancers for this job! I would be happy to inform other freelancers of the situation, so they take extra care if they decide to work with her. I am afraid though, that giving negative feedback to the client will result in negative feedback for me – and this is definitely something I would like to avoid. Any ideas? Should I just bury this whole thing?
The combined number of words I wrote in this thread is already roughly twice the size of the project itself – and I don’t count your kind answers and support offered. What a waste of energy…
Piotr O wrote:I am never too old or too experienced to skip the chance to listen to a little lecture - thank you!
Well, the rest of us don't have that much time to prepare lectures for your edification, so spend some time educating yourself about how the platform works. It's not an app you can figure out as you go along. It's a complicated platform, and there's more to freelancing than having marketable skills and being able to land clients. Do some homework.
Piotr O wrote:
So, I was beautifully ripped off. My fault, no one is to blame here but me – a client took advantage of my lack of experience with milestones’ management.
Not your lack of experience, really, but instead your lack of understanding of how to manage UW contracts because you didn't bother to study up. I'm whacking you on the head about this because you can take it and I want to make the point crystal clear for younger, less experienced FLs reading along who need to understand how important it is to do your homework before you start accepting contracts.
Piotr O wrote:
I am afraid though, that giving negative feedback to the client will result in negative feedback for me – and this is definitely something I would like to avoid. Any ideas? Should I just bury this whole thing?
Again with the ignorance about how things work around here. As Petra mentioned, fb is double blind. Please leave concise (one sentence), candid fb. Doing so is one of the few levers available to us FLs. (There is an inherent power imbalance in the contractor-client relationship because one party controls the purse strings. UW's fb system is imperfect but it does offer us a few tools and we need to optimize them.) For instance: Client split the fee into two milestones, only funded the first one, and closed the contract upon delivery leaving half the negotiated fee unpaid. Or something like that.
Sep 25, 2021 06:32:02 AM by Piotr O
I apologize for digging up this thread again, but I have left the feedback and received fantastic feedback of 2.85 after being ripped off and not paid for my work - a work that was as good as all I do commercially, nothing less or substandard. Any option to get this thing out of my profile? It is a bit outrageous to not pay someone what he deserves (no matter how small the amount is) AND give him, as a bonus I reckon, negative feedback.
I'm a bit sick and tired with this case, I have to admit.
Sep 25, 2021 06:43:44 AM by Preston H
re: "Any option to get this thing out of my profile?"
Refund the money received for this contract, and it will not appear in any way in your job history.
(Only thing remaining will be the impact of private feedback on JSS.)
Sep 25, 2021 07:18:45 AM by Piotr O
Preston H wrote:re: "Any option to get this thing out of my profile?"
Refund the money received for this contract, and it will not appear in any way in your job history.
(Only thing remaining will be the impact of private feedback on JSS.)
I've been living all too long on this world to grasp the concept that fairness in this world is a Holly Grail rather than a reality. Nevertheless, this is a bit disturbing:
1. You agree on the price
2. You do the work and submit it
3. You get paid only 50% of the money
4. You get negative feedback which may affect your future earnings
5. To reduce the damage (not recover from it - see JSS score) you have to give back all you earned from this project.
End result: I have a damaged reputation (JSS), the client has my work for free.
Well...
PS. Preston, thanks for the tip, the above is obviously not aimed at or against you. It is a question of if and how I can elevate it to UpWork, because I do have an issue with paying back this person and give him/her the satisfaction of ripping me off TWICE and getting away with it.
Sep 25, 2021 03:12:14 PM Edited Sep 25, 2021 03:20:21 PM by Tonya P
Piotr O wrote:
Preston H wrote:re: "Any option to get this thing out of my profile?"
Refund the money received for this contract, and it will not appear in any way in your job history.
(Only thing remaining will be the impact of private feedback on JSS.)
I've been living all too long on this world to grasp the concept that fairness in this world is a Holly Grail rather than a reality. Nevertheless, this is a bit disturbing:
1. You agree on the price
2. You do the work and submit it
3. You get paid only 50% of the money
4. You get negative feedback which may affect your future earnings
5. To reduce the damage (not recover from it - see JSS score) you have to give back all you earned from this project.
End result: I have a damaged reputation (JSS), the client has my work for free.
Well...
PS. Preston, thanks for the tip, the above is obviously not aimed at or against you. It is a question of if and how I can elevate it to UpWork, because I do have an issue with paying back this person and give him/her the satisfaction of ripping me off TWICE and getting away with it.
Well, you got 4 and 5 right. Clients are allowed to give feedback on every single contract. That is a fundamental rule of Upwork. You must live with the consequences of the contract you chose to take and the results of how you chose to handle that project.
Refunding the money is actually a bit of a cheat because it allows the freelancer to erase a client's feedback from view. In the past, freelancers who couldn't perform well would use this strategy to maintain their status on the platform. They would claim to be "5-star" freelancers and maintain that falsehood by paying off any cilent who didn't give them 5 stars. That is one of the reasons we have a JSS now. Freelancers can still hide their bad performances by paying off unhappy clients with a refund, but they cannot escape the impact on their JSS.
This contract didn't go bad because of anything Upwork did. You asked how to escape (some) the consequences and a refund is the answer.
Sep 26, 2021 02:50:46 AM by Piotr O
Tonya P wrote:
Piotr O wrote:
Preston H wrote:re: "Any option to get this thing out of my profile?"
Refund the money received for this contract, and it will not appear in any way in your job history.
(Only thing remaining will be the impact of private feedback on JSS.)
I've been living all too long on this world to grasp the concept that fairness in this world is a Holly Grail rather than a reality. Nevertheless, this is a bit disturbing:
1. You agree on the price
2. You do the work and submit it
3. You get paid only 50% of the money
4. You get negative feedback which may affect your future earnings
5. To reduce the damage (not recover from it - see JSS score) you have to give back all you earned from this project.
End result: I have a damaged reputation (JSS), the client has my work for free.
Well...
PS. Preston, thanks for the tip, the above is obviously not aimed at or against you. It is a question of if and how I can elevate it to UpWork, because I do have an issue with paying back this person and give him/her the satisfaction of ripping me off TWICE and getting away with it.
Well, you got 4 and 5 right. Clients are allowed to give feedback on every single contract. That is a fundamental rule of Upwork. You must live with the consequences of the contract you chose to take and the results of how you chose to handle that project.
Refunding the money is actually a bit of a cheat because it allows the freelancer to erase a client's feedback from view. In the past, freelancers who couldn't perform well would use this strategy to maintain their status on the platform. They would claim to be "5-star" freelancers and maintain that falsehood by paying off any cilent who didn't give them 5 stars. That is one of the reasons we have a JSS now. Freelancers can still hide their bad performances by paying off unhappy clients with a refund, but they cannot escape the impact on their JSS.
This contract didn't go bad because of anything Upwork did. You asked how to escape (some) the consequences and a refund is the answer.
Thanks for all the info. I would disagree with the "cheating" part, though. The client in question did a very good job - he/she paid me in half and left a totally unfair rating, KNOWING that I will want to remove this rating and that to do so I will have to refund him in total for my work. I can see no "cheating" in removing a totally unfair rating that was produced to get work totally for free. I would supply all evidence of my communication with the client and the quality of work I have delivered but there is no courtroom here to present it to. It seems that there is a well-thought-out scam that allows you to get work basically for free, especially from new UpWork members who work hard to gain a reputation. And it does not matter here that I mistakenly allowed to be paid in half only. It could work the same even if I was paid in full. A client leaves an unfair bad rating. If a fresh freelancer wants to get rid of the unfair rating, he has to give the client his money back. A client then gets all the money back and gets free work done by a freelancer. I would expect UpWork to address it somehow because the engine of this scam is built in the UpWork rules. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
Sep 26, 2021 04:06:15 AM by Phyllis G
Piotr O wrote:
Tonya P wrote:Well, you got 4 and 5 right. Clients are allowed to give feedback on every single contract. That is a fundamental rule of Upwork. You must live with the consequences of the contract you chose to take and the results of how you chose to handle that project.
Refunding the money is actually a bit of a cheat because it allows the freelancer to erase a client's feedback from view. In the past, freelancers who couldn't perform well would use this strategy to maintain their status on the platform. They would claim to be "5-star" freelancers and maintain that falsehood by paying off any cilent who didn't give them 5 stars. That is one of the reasons we have a JSS now. Freelancers can still hide their bad performances by paying off unhappy clients with a refund, but they cannot escape the impact on their JSS.
This contract didn't go bad because of anything Upwork did. You asked how to escape (some) the consequences and a refund is the answer.
Thanks for all the info. I would disagree with the "cheating" part, though. The client in question did a very good job - he/she paid me in half and left a totally unfair rating, KNOWING that I will want to remove this rating and that to do so I will have to refund him in total for my work. I can see no "cheating" in removing a totally unfair rating that was produced to get work totally for free. I would supply all evidence of my communication with the client and the quality of work I have delivered but there is no courtroom here to present it to. It seems that there is a well-thought-out scam that allows you to get work basically for free, especially from new UpWork members who work hard to gain a reputation. And it does not matter here that I mistakenly allowed to be paid in half only. It could work the same even if I was paid in full. A client leaves an unfair bad rating. If a fresh freelancer wants to get rid of the unfair rating, he has to give the client his money back. A client then gets all the money back and gets free work done by a freelancer. I would expect UpWork to address it somehow because the engine of this scam is built in the UpWork rules. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.
The 'engine of this scam' lies in how you choose to use the platform. There's no way to make it completely idiot-proof. FLs who are serious about earning money and clients who are serious about obtaining professional services are not so often troubled by this kind of thing.
- Stay away from cheapskate clients. Anecdotally, and in all likelihood statistically, they are more likely to cheat FLs when they can.
- Stay away from sketchy projects. For instance, when a project sounds like it could be (or almost surely is) an academic assignment, think twice about pursuing it. If they are cheating at their studies, then they probably won't hesitate to cheat you.
- Structure milestones to reflect the proportion of the work associated with each one, so if a client closes a contract unexpectedly, you'll be paid for work submitted to that point.
So, no, UW is not going to 'address it somehow' because your unhappy outcome resulted from your own errors. Continuing to struggle against that reality is a questionable use of your own time and energy IMO. Although it does present an opportunity to create an instructive narrative for new FLs who use the community forum to learn.
Sep 26, 2021 04:14:03 AM by Piotr O
Thank you Phyllis for the tips. One thing only - no, the "bad rating equals free work" scam has nothing to do with my mistakes. It can happen to anybody, even if paid in full and properly managing the contract. Of course, it will most probably not happen with clients who have a long history on UpWork.
OK, I call it a day with this case. I've finished a nice project with an UpWork client a minute ago - just crossing my fingers now that he will not come up with a concept of getting his money back through giving me negative feedback 😉
Sep 26, 2021 04:21:36 AM by Martina P
Piotr O wrote:Thank you Phyllis for the tips. One thing only - no, the "bad rating equals free work" scam has nothing to do with my mistakes. It can happen to anybody, even if paid in full and properly managing the contract. Of course, it will most probably not happen with clients who have a long history on UpWork.
OK, I call it a day with this case. I've finished a nice project with an UpWork client a minute ago - just crossing my fingers now that he will not come up with a concept of getting his money back through giving me negative feedback 😉
Yes, it's annoying, but no serious client will split $20 into 2 milestones, that was a huge red flag. And I'm sure you're right that some clients will use bad feedback to get a freelancer to refund and get free work. It's your call - either make that job disappear and be done with it, or leave it on your profile and hope it doesn't hinder your chances of getting work.
If you have a number of jobs you can close soon, do the latter to make it slide further down, but it still wil have a big impact when you get a JSS, and that might be really aggravating.
Sep 22, 2021 01:29:45 AM by Martina P
It's pretty ridiculous to break up $20 into 2 milestones. Can you deliver half the work?