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serafindesigns
Community Member

Abuse, Clients & Disputes Who's Right?

I was recently involved with a client that took advantage of my generosity and my work set. After pleading for me to work for him after I turned him down 3x I stupidly agreed to help him.

I felt bad for him, but knew he was the worst of the worst. Ugh.

After getting his site squared away and hours upon hours of work he told Up Work that I over billed him by one hour. Which isnt correct. I added manual time honestly and was allowed 2 hours per week.

Aside from all that I was verbially abused as well as in writing and harassed with over 10 emails.

How are we, as freelancers, protected from people like this on UpWork if UpWork won't take these things into consideration when a dispute is in play?

Has anyone ever filed a police report? Does doing so go against any UW terms of use?

There needs to be accountability for clients like this that warp the system to get their way. I want to ensure others don't get hurt like I did. Up Work needs to do better in not only protecting both sides when it comes to pay, but also our sense of dignity as freelancers. Regardless if they don't protect against manual time or not.

26 REPLIES 26
prestonhunter
Community Member

re: "Has anyone ever filed a police report?"

 

There are very few police departments anywhere in the world who want to police what happens on international freelancer work platforms such as Upwork.

 

Most police departments would tell you straight up that they don't deal with this sort of thing and refer you elsewhere. Or if the did take down your report, they will do nothing with it other than to pass it around their department so they can get a good laugh.

 

After carefully reading your post, I can affirm that there is nothing there that should be reported to the police. Nothing that can be reported to police. And nothing that can or should be reported to Upwork.

 

As a freelancer, you made many mistakes. You already realize that. The things you described are either mistakes that you made, or things that were your responsibility to handle directly.

 

Sorry.

Up Work has a location in San Fran. The client is in Maryland. I'm in both Cali and PA. I hardly find this an international issue whatsoever. You can't do business in the United States without recognizing certain laws. If this was an international matter I wouldn't have even moved forward with this comment.

Secondly, I didn't make many mistakes.... the only mistake I made was feeling sorry for this guy and agreeing to help him out.

Lastly, your sarcasm of the police having a good laugh isn't funny or professional whatsoever. If you don't have any advice, keep that **Edited for Community Guidelines** to yourself. Otherwise you're just as bad as he is. Being kind is priceless.



feed_my_eyes
Community Member

If you knew that this client was the "worst of the worst" then I don't understand why you took the job? And when you did take the job, why not use the time tracker to protect yourself? It sounds like you knew what you were getting into, so how could Upwork have "protected" you? We're all adults here who can make our own decisions.

If he's only disputing one hour, then I'd let it go if I were you. I don't see any point in escalating this. (Has the deadline passed for him to potentially dispute all of your manual hours?)

re: "Upwork has a location in San Fran. The client is in Maryland. I'm in both Cali and PA. I hardly find this an international issue whatsoever."

 

None of that matters. What happens on Upwork stays on Upwork.

 

Upwork matters are not police matters.

 

re: "You can't do business in the United States without recognizing certain laws."

 

It is not your responsibility to recognize laws on behalf of Upwork, or tell Upwork how to be in compliance with laws.

 

You may:

- learn how to use Upwork effectively

- make recommendations to Upwork about things you think they can change

 

As an Upwork user, I do those things. I don't tell Upwork that they need to do something differently or that they are doing something wrong based on my understanding of some law somewhere.

 

re: "Lastly, your sarcasm of the police having a good laugh isn't funny or professional whatsoever. If you don't have any advice, keep that **Edited for Community Guidelines** to yourself. Otherwise you're just as bad as he is. Being kind is priceless."

 

This was not sarcasm. You asked a question. I provided you with helpful, accurate information.

 

I do have advice, and shared it with you. None of what I said is **Edited for Community Guidelines** . You are correct: Being kind is priceless. I was being kind to you by answering your questions and providing you with information that can help you succeed as an Upwork user.

Preston, are you a lawyer?

I think you're focused on the wrong thing Christine. The issue here is the abuse, derogatory, degrading comments. Both in DM and email.

And I didn't know he was the "worst of the worst" beforehand. I just had a bad vibe. All I knew is he was cheap. I gave him an hour of my time for free to train him. I went above and beyond and then some. I did my two hours one week and then he wanted more work. So I did another 2 hours. I put my additional two hours in.

I don't care that he won a dispute. The argument is how do we feel safe and protected! If a client can email you, call you and DM you filthy derogatory comments?

Up Work took none of that into consideration. Whatsoever.

Being an adult is one thing, being a **Edited for Community Guidelines** is another. I don't think that belongs on any online community. Especially one where we work.

You are making a mistake if you think that Upwork can protect you from clients being rude, crude, foul-mouthed, etc.

 

You CAN report Upwork users for such. Maybe something will come of it. Maybe nothing will. But Upwork can not "protect" its users from such ever happening.

 

The person who can do something about that is YOU. If another user uses a word that you don't like or says things that you don't like, then YOU have the ability to block that user in all communication tools that he is able to use to contact you.

 

Moreover, YOU can decide for yourself what is acceptable and what isn't. You are not beholden to anybody else's opinions on that matter.

 

You are mistaken if you think that Upwork employees will take that into consideration when making a decision about a client's dispute of a freelancer's manually logged time. They will not. The criteria they use are very simple. If a client disputes manually logged time, during the narrow five-day dispute window, Upwork will remove that time

You love that word "mistake". Let's slow the use of that word. It's a discussion, not a decision. 

 

An online community will not grow by blocking people. Sorry, but I disagree with that. That's why we're seeing a huge movement in country to change the way things take place online.

 

Simply blocking a user does nothing. Especially when they have your email. 

 

With regards to manual time; I will say this, it is and should be protected in some way. I personally cannot have the camera snapping desktop shots as I work government gigs and have other stuff going on all at the same time. That in itself is a stupid way of logging hours. I get it. We have to see if the person is doing their work.  But it's dumb.

 

Again, I don't give two sheets about this dispute. I care that I can work and know I work in a safe environment. And if Up Work won't do anything about that then I'll take it to the legislature to make it happen. 

 

 

 

What crime do you believe the client committed that you would call to file a police report about? 

Harassing derogatory emails and DMs they not only violate Up Works TOU they're a crime in the U.S. If I could post the emails and DMs here I would, but let's just say it went beyond a simple cyberstalking incident and since non of us our anonymous here in this community I won't be posting any of it here.


Stef S wrote:
Harassing derogatory emails and DMs they not only violate Up Works TOU they're a crime in the U.S. If I could post the emails and DMs here I would, but let's just say it went beyond a simple cyberstalking incident and since non of us our anonymous here in this community I won't be posting any of it here.


So I have actually been cyberstalked and had to file a police report. If you truly believe it was cyberstalking, and that the behavior has continued beyond you blocking them, then you should call your local PD and file a police report. I'm not sure what you expect Upwork to do though. They do not have control over email or anything the client does outside the site. If they are continuing despite blocking them, then you should file a report. However, if you have not already blocked them and sent their emails to a delete filter, I would do so, and I would also advise you that the police will also not do very much in this instance. 

 

I understand that it's frustrating, but really the best course is to simply block them on all channels, set a filter to delete their emails before they get to you, and move on like they don't exist. Crappy people exist, and there's not much you can do except set boundaries (like those suggested).  

Thanks Amanda. Appreciate your words. I'm sorry you had to go thru that as well. It's never a good thing.

I realize the world is full of crappy people. There's no argument there. Just sucks they're on here. This should be a safe place.

As per "suggestions", I wasn't really looking for anyone's advice, more so looking to see if anyone else went is/was going thru this.

Take care


Stef S wrote:
Thanks Amanda. Appreciate your words. I'm sorry you had to go thru that as well. It's never a good thing.

I realize the world is full of crappy people. There's no argument there. Just sucks they're on here. This should be a safe place.

As per "suggestions", I wasn't really looking for anyone's advice, more so looking to see if anyone else went is/was going thru this.

Take care

I think the vast majority of clients on Upwork would never do that kind of things you are suggesting. It is a large community of clients though, and since it's likely these things get reported, it wouldn't surprised me if there were more than one report of this in the community. 

 

FWIW, I have seen more reports from clients complaining of freelancers doing this kind of stalking than clients doing it. It seems like your gut was right, and this client was not someone you'd want to work with (putting it mildly).  Usually, in my experience, people who are doing this kind of baiting behavior (sending emails and DMs, etc.) usually give up once you block them and they realize it's over. 

 

As long as your life isn't in danger, I'd put on all the blocks and give it a day or so. If they somehow go around the blocks, then I'd call the police. 

 

Also FWIW, I recently blocked a client who decided they must have the last word in everything, even though I had fired them months ago. They sent my 1099 to an address I hadn't lived at for over 2 years, and had since known of my new address since they were sending my checks to my new address. They turned into major jerks, trying to again refute the reasons I ended the contract (which actually had to do with them breaking laws and I found out). Anyways, I said numerous times, please only communicate to me about the resissuing of my 1099, and yet the main contact had to continue replying with slanderous statements that he copied others on so finally I just created a filter to delete his emails immediately. Remember these guys are likely so small time it doesn't matter at all. 

 

For my part, I've reported their activity to the IRS (which is the agency that would investigate the matter), and since I no longer have any need for any kind of documentation from them, I will never communicate with any of their team again. 

 

Whatever they are saying and suggesting, I'm sure you are bigger time than they are. Let them rant and rave like the Karens they are. Put on all the blocks and leave it alone, unless they continue to escalate. Hopefully you were able to leave feedback for this client as well and warn other freelancers about them. 

 

Whenever I encounter a situation like this, I take it as an opportunity to remind myself why I always follow my gut. At this point if my gut has any bad inkling, I bow out. I'd rather walk away and be wrong then find out I was right about a bad client, you know?

🤣😂 "Karens" that's so funny. Total Karen.

I fired myself immediately after he got out of hand, logged my hours and blocked him and after one DM. The after all the emails threatened to call the police. Only then did it stop.

I'm not a client so I can't discuss, nor have I participated in any discussions to even know the scoop. All I know is abuse can't be tolerated in any manner. Or we're as guilty for allowing it.

That was my whole premises for posting this discussion. More has to be done I feel before it gets to any other level.

I did report this guy and I told UpWork to specifically look at his DMs, but I guess they just don't care. It's really sad.

I can't believe they got your address from back then and 1099'd you. That's crazy.



Stef S wrote:

I can't believe they got your address from back then and 1099'd you. That's crazy.



I don't think you understood what I said.   

 

 

Sorry, Preston was making me tired. Like really tired.
joansands
Community Member

Stef - You say you agreed to work for someone you knew was the worst of the worst. Why on earth would you do that? And why would you give that person your email and your telephone number? 

Joan, I'm not sure what you do on here, but as a Fullstack / Database Architect we have to give out emails for server access. In most cases we have to sign NDAs.

There's no way around that.

I had a vibe. Wasn't positive and I'm not a psychic.

I don't think it is possible to know that a client will be a terrible client, or a terrible person.

 

Sometimes, yes. But often it is unrealistic to think that a client will know this beforehand.


I am more of a believer in taking direct action if something happens.

 

If a client or anyone else has my email address and uses bad language, I can ignore it or I can block them or I can warn them. I can report it to Upwork. There are features built into the Messages tool for doing that. There are "Flag as inappropriate" link buttons on every freelancer profile page and every job posting.

 

There is no universal standard. Some users will block a client if she uses the E-word. Others will ignore it. Upwork allows me to do what I will with that. Maybe I think it is okay to use the I-word but not the V-word. Someone else might have the opposite stance. Some freelancers might object to the J-word if a client is new, but ignore it for a client who has paid them over $5000 so far. I am fine with that. Some freelancers might not care about a client's salty language, but if the client calls them on the phone on a Sunday, the freelancer will end the contract. Other freelancers might not mind weekend calls at all, but will warn a client if she sends an email message late at night to never do that again.

 

Upwork is not going to police all of these matters. The police are not going to police all of these matters. The government is not going to legislate all of these matters. Nor do we want it to.

Who's we Preston? You're not a lawyer, you're not a cop and since I practically know everyone at my govt clients (no name agency) I know you don't work there.

Having someone tell you their going to effing kill you, ruin your life and want to rape you Preston is a crime. It's called cyberstalking. Yes, it may be a misdemeanor, and even if it wasn't a law it doesn't give people the right to act like that. And it sure doesn't give them the right to win effing disputes. No way, no how. Especially on here. Blocking them is one thing, like I said. But it's not the answer nor was I looking for one.

I agree with everything else you said though. We can never know for sure.

Look, I was hoping to have an amazing discussion on the subject matter of abuse on Up Work and instead I felt attacked yet again by other freelancers. My peers no less. Something in that is really wrong in and of itself.

Stef - I hope you reported to Upwork what that client threatened you. But I keep going back to your first post where you said you thought that client was the worst of the worst. It seems that turned out to be the case. If you run into someone else who gives you that feeling, I hope you won't decide to work with them. Upwork has millions of users - both clients and freelancers. My experience has been that there are clients who are just awful in one way or another but there are also some really wonderful people who are clients. Every new job entails some risk - but that's just part of life. 

Ya, I can't go back and edit Joan, but I should have stated I had a vibe and he turned out to be the worst of the worst.

Either way, my grandfather taught me to be kind to everyone, help those that are less fortunate and do good in the world. And I strive to do that everyday for him. Well, for myself too.

Oh I couldn't agree more. Out of the 60+ projects I've done I'm good friends with every single one of them except two.

Especially my Cali clients back home and my PA clients. I came out of retirement after 10 years of boredom and I do this Monday - Friday. I have absolutely loved every minute of it.

Don't get me wrong I'm not dissing on UpWork. I just think more needs to be done to protect us from abuse. Different measures need to be implemented where we're protected.

Unfortunately, even I can't think of how to go that route.

To be fair, until your latest post, there was no indication of what you were referring to. You knew. Nobody else participating in the thread did.

 

Prior threads have involved freelancers offended because a client told them that their rates are too high, or because a client called them "lazy".

 

The discussion here is still worthwhile, informative and valid. But if you actually want to understand everyone's posts here, you need to realize that nobody was assuming that your posts were about a client threatening to kill a freelancer. Most of the participants in this thread have participated and/or read threads that represent a wide range of objectionable language.

That's fair, but it's also not something I wanted to go all public with her either.

Still, that's not even the point Preston, the fact of the matter is abuse was done and Up Work didn't do jack.

I don't even know if this thread gets picked up by Google or if the client can see it even.

I'm tired Preston. You make me tired.
I feel like I'm gonna argue with you until we're both defetead. You win. I give up.

Night everybody.

petra_r
Community Member


Stef S wrote:
How are we, as freelancers, protected from people like this on UpWork 

As far as the money is concerned: By using the tracker. Simple.

As far as the client being rude is concerned: By establishing boundaries and firing clients who cross them immediately. Upwork WILL take action if handed proof, but that is separate from any dispute. It has nothing to do with the dispute.

 


Stef S wrote:
UpWork won't take these things into consideration when a dispute is in play?

The dispute and the client being rude are two different matters. They are 100% unconnected. If you send proof of the abuse to Upwork (screenshots), they will act on it. That won't (and shouldn't) affect the outcome of the dispute, which will go in the client's favour as manual time is never protected and you agreed to that when adding manual time.

 


Stef S wrote:
Has anyone ever filed a police report? 

If you feel that what was said rises to the level of a crime, feel free to do so, but I wouldn't hold my breath that anything will be done.

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi All,

 

A number of posts and replies have been removed from this thread as they were in violation of the Community Guidelines and the thread has been closed from further replies since the arguments have been exhausted and the conversation is moving into an unproductive direction.

 

I would like to address the two main issues that I see had been brought up on this thread - Upwork Hourly Protection and reporting inappropriate behavior. 

Firstly, in order for the freelancer to benefit from Upwork Hourly Protection, they need to make sure they use Upwork Desktop App to log time on hourly projects. By doing so, and following the steps outlined in our Payment Protection article here, the freelancer is taking all of the necessary steps to have their payments covered. More information about payments on hourly contracts, Payment Protection and the process the team would follow when reviewing any disputes on hourly contracts can be found here.

 

Secondly, we do take any reports of abuse or inappropriate behavior seriously. In general, this help article outlines ways such instances could be reported to Upwork team for review. But, Stef, I have also forwarded the concerns you shared here to the team and they'll reach out to you directly for more information about the situation you've described. You'll receive an email from them shortly.

 

~ Valeria
Upwork
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