🐈
» Forums » Freelancers » Re: Activity Level needs improvement
Page options
bourokit
Community Member

Activity Level needs improvement

Hello!

 

I've noticed that the way the Activity Level is calculated/displayed can be potentially hugely misleading to my clients. It is calculating it in 10-minute chunks regardless of whether you have stopped the tracking or not, so if I take a break at like 2:12 pm and STOP the tracking client, the Activity Level will actually show me having a 2/10 activity on that 10-minute chunk - certainly giving the impression that I was doing nothing for 8 minutes while billing for it (which is definitely not the case).

 

The way I'm working around it right now is I'm trying to only take breaks at the ends of the 10-minute chunks - so I would wait until 2:20 pm for example. But as everyone knows, sometimes you get a phone call or something urgent come up in the middle of the work that you simply have no choice but to stop the tracker. And that will show up in my work diary as a low activity level when in fact I am stopping the tracker whenever I'm not actually working.

 

This really needs an overhaul IMHO and I know if I were a client I would have question marks about my freelancer having a bunch of 2/10 Activity Levels.

26 REPLIES 26
lysis10
Community Member


Talal B wrote:

Hello!

 

I've noticed that the way the Activity Level is calculated/displayed can be potentially hugely misleading to my clients. It is calculating it in 10-minute chunks regardless of whether you have stopped the tracking or not, so if I take a break at like 2:12 pm and STOP the tracking client, the Activity Level will actually show me having a 2/10 activity on that 10-minute chunk - certainly giving the impression that I was doing nothing for 8 minutes while billing for it (which is definitely not the case).

 

The way I'm working around it right now is I'm trying to only take breaks at the ends of the 10-minute chunks - so I would wait until 2:20 pm for example. But as everyone knows, sometimes you get a phone call or something urgent come up in the middle of the work that you simply have no choice but to stop the tracker. And that will show up in my work diary as a low activity level when in fact I am stopping the tracker whenever I'm not actually working.

 

This really needs an overhaul IMHO and I know if I were a client I would have question marks about my freelancer having a bunch of 2/10 Activity Levels.


Nah, it's fine. I don't answer phone calls while on tracker but even if I do (like an important call I don't want to miss), if I run the clock and it's 2 minute charge, you can delete it. I just stop it like you said at the end of the segment, so this way the activity is high for the last segment. If it happens after 6 minutes of work, then I believe 6 minutes of activity is what Upwork has defined as "active." So then you can just leave it.

 

If you want to stop at the 2 minute mark and a snapshot was already taken, just work 8 more minutes. It's not that big of a deal.

It is what it is.

joynul33
Community Member

I trust the Upwork desktop robotically adjusts the time. Sometimes the app takes screenshots after twenty min.

Joynul

That's the thing. I've trusted the tracker for too long before having to figure it out myself (and I consider myself on the more tech-savvy side of things). It is not straightforward to figure out because I've not always had such extreme examples as 2/10 and so I had brushed off those 6/10 or 7/10 segments as meaning I had just perhaps missed something or it would rectify itself.

If this is the case then the tracker should either be CLEAR that it is tracking in 10-minute segments and perhaps even disable our ability to stop tracking in the middle of it. At the very least give us a pop-up warning that we'd probably want to check and possibly delete this segment.

Surely this would only make things vastly better for both the clients and freelancers?
lysis10
Community Member


Talal B wrote:
That's the thing. I've trusted the tracker for too long before having to figure it out myself (and I consider myself on the more tech-savvy side of things). It is not straightforward to figure out because I've not always had such extreme examples as 2/10 and so I had brushed off those 6/10 or 7/10 segments as meaning I had just perhaps missed something or it would rectify itself.

If this is the case then the tracker should either be CLEAR that it is tracking in 10-minute segments and perhaps even disable our ability to stop tracking in the middle of it. At the very least give us a pop-up warning that we'd probably want to check and possibly delete this segment.

Surely this would only make things vastly better for both the clients and freelancers?

You have 200 hours. It seems you haven't figure it out just yet. It's very clear how it works once you understand it. It has all the info you need when you're about to log off. It has the total hours for the week, total hours for the session, and it shows you when the last snapshot was taken so that you know if you can sign off or not, but I don't usually sign off until the 9 minute mark anyway. 

 

And since you're kinda new to the Tracker, make sure you have meaning memos on your snapshots.

bourokit
Community Member


Jennifer M wrote:

and it shows you when the last snapshot was taken so that you know if you can sign off or not, but I don't usually sign off until the 9 minute mark anyway. 

Well there is no info or guidelines about when to sign off or not this in the help page: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211064098-Log-Time-with-the-Desktop-App

 

Everything about the app gives the impression that it is like any regular time tracker that can be trusted - such as Grindstone which I've started using in conjunction and which has actually helped me spot this issue (and other issues like the app sometimes reporting 10 or 20 minutes MORE than I have actually worked for some reason). 

 

I appreciate that you have it perfectly figured out as a long-time user, but surely you can't be opposed to making it even better with no down sides I can think of?

 

 

lysis10
Community Member


Talal B wrote:


Well there is no info or guidelines about when to sign off or not this in the help page: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211064098-Log-Time-with-the-Desktop-App

 

Everything about the app gives the impression that it is like any regular time tracker that can be trusted - such as Grindstone which I've started using in conjunction and which has actually helped me spot this issue (and other issues like the app sometimes reporting 10 or 20 minutes MORE than I have actually worked for some reason). 

 

I appreciate that you have it perfectly figured out as a long-time user, but surely you can't be opposed to making it even better with no down sides I can think of?

 

 


I know it takes time to figure out and Upwork's documentation can be confusing at times, but it really makes sense once you figure out what's going on. I'm fine with it as it is, but I've logged hundreds of hours (not sure where I'm at in hours) and I just know how it works and it works fine to me.

lysis10
Community Member


Joynul A wrote:

I trust the Upwork desktop robotically adjusts the time. Sometimes the app takes screenshots after twenty min.


Well yeah, everyone complains about it taking snapshots early, but there can be times when it takes a snapshot at the 0 minute and then not until the 9 minute mark on the second segment. It's true when Upwork says it balances out. I've had plenty of times where I want to pack it in for the day and I have to wait for the snapshot and it doesn't happen until the 9 minute mark.


Jennifer M wrote:
It's true when Upwork says it balances out. 

Actually it isn't, because of an error in the algorithm. It works correctly for segments where you stop working, but not for segments where you start working. When you stop working the probability of getting a snapshot is equal to the % of the 10 minutes that you worked (exception: see below). But when you start working during a segment and continue to the end of the segment, you get a snapshot 100% of the time!

 

I've had plenty of times where I want to pack it in for the day and I have to wait for the snapshot and it doesn't happen until the 9 minute mark.

If you wait for the snapshot and then stop tracking, you bias the result in your favour, since you're making the probability of a snapshot 100% even though you're not working the whole segment. So that's another reason it doesn't balance out (if you do that).

wlyonsatl
Community Member

Talal,

 

If the American phone company AT&T could keep track of the minute-by-minute time of long distance calls 40 years ago, there is technology available today to do the same for more accurate time tracking by the TimeTracker software.

 

I have a good number of client and prospective client calls, exchange emails, work on projects, etc. throughout each weekday. Demanding that I can only work on one client's project over each 10 minute period - of which there are 60 on my 10-hour workdays - is clunky and unnecessarily restrictive.

 

And it appears to me a dishonest freelancer can bill a client for 20 minutes when the freelancer has only actually worked on the client's project for less than 10 minutes.

 

Upwork, please bring TimeTracker into the 21st century! (OK, so I know you'll ignore this request. But a freelancer can dream, can't he?)


Will L wrote:

 

 

And it appears to me a dishonest freelancer can bill a client for 20 minutes when the freelancer has only actually worked on the client's project for less than 10 minutes.

 


There would be no payment protection in this case, because activity levels for the second segment (or at least one of the segments) would be very low. 

It would have been fun to watch the reaction of the American public and US federal and state telecom regulators if AT&T had told its long-distance customers (every household in America) in the 1970s:

 

"We are going to bill your long-distance services only in 10-minute increments. So, if your call, or a portion of your call beyond a multiple of 10 minutes, is less than a certain number, we won't bill you for that call or portion of your call. If the segment is above a certain number of minutes between 0 and 10 minutes, we will bill you for a full 10 minutes.

 

We won't tell you what the minimum segment of minutes applies to billing/non-billing. But just trust us on that point; our billing system will handle all of those calculations for you.

 

Thank you for using AT&T."

data_divas
Community Member

If the client looks at the work diary and sees the activity levels of 2 out of 10 minutes for example,  they don't know that's how the tracker works.  I assume they would think I'm charging for time but not doing work on their project.  In my mind that reflects badly on me.

I try to log on and off at the 10 minute mark but always check the work diary and delete any segments that make it look like I'm a lazy slacker. 

Yes exactly. Thankfully I haven't run into problems with a client yet because they already are quite happy with how fast I'm working, but it could easily have led me to potentially losing future work or getting negative feedback. 

 

Now I have to incorporate this tedious checking & deleting those "bad" segments when I should be focusing on delivering quality work for my clients on time and improving/refining my workflows.

lysis10
Community Member


Talal B wrote:

Yes exactly. Thankfully I haven't run into problems with a client yet because they already are quite happy with how fast I'm working, but it could easily have led me to potentially losing future work or getting negative feedback. 

 

Now I have to incorporate this tedious checking & deleting those "bad" segments when I should be focusing on delivering quality work for my clients on time and improving/refining my workflows.


If it helps at all, I've had plenty of low activity segments and never once had a client dispute my hours. Probably jinxing myself by saying that though. lol I think as long as A) you deliver and are productive and B) it's not like a full hour of low activity where it's obvious you're doing nothing.

bourokit
Community Member


Jennifer M wrote:

If it helps at all, I've had plenty of low activity segments and never once had a client dispute my hours. Probably jinxing myself by saying that though. lol I think as long as A) you deliver and are productive and B) it's not like a full hour of low activity where it's obvious you're doing nothing.


That does help and thanks for your input Smiley Very Happy


Julie J wrote:

If the client looks at the work diary and sees the activity levels of 2 out of 10 minutes for example,  they don't know that's how the tracker works.  I assume they would think I'm charging for time but not doing work on their project.  In my mind that reflects badly on me.

I try to log on and off at the 10 minute mark but always check the work diary and delete any segments that make it look like I'm a lazy slacker. 


I actually don't delete segments with low activity (I know some people do). I know it's not protected, but my diary usually has a low activity segment and then a high one the next segment. I usually have low activity for maybe 3-4 segments for each long session (like 5+ hours). 

 

I delete maybe the first segment if I'm totally not thinking about it and just start the tracker at the 9 min mark. I've gotten really good at remembering to start somewhere between the 0-3 mark.

Julie,

 

Neither Upwork nor clients should expect freelancers to have to end each workday by checking and, if necessary, adjusting the time TimeTracker has actually tracked for their work that day.

 

On any given day I have at least three communications or work segments with at least four of my usual 10 - 15 total Upwork clients. If I have to compare those 12 client interactions for their actual time (as tracked in a separate piece of software) against what TimeTracker has allocated in 10 minute segments, that's probably going to take me about 15 minutes per day. If I only work five days a week (that would be nice), that works out to 75 minutes per week adjusting TimeTracker (or 60 -65 hours per year, the equivalent of 1.5 full 40-hour weeks per year).

 

There is no reason any freelancer should think that amount of free work each year is acceptable.

 

 

 

 

In my industry, it's the norm to round up time segments to the nearest 15 minutes. I've worked for at least 100 different creative agencies in Canada, Ireland, Australia, and the UK (to name a few), and it's always been the case that even if you do something for 30 seconds, you round it up to the nearest 15 minutes. So, I don't think that the 10-minute thing is a big deal, and none of my clients have ever queried a few minutes' discrepency here or there. What's the alternative - you finish a job but you're not at the end of a perfect 10-minute segment, so you just randomly mouse click until the time is up? Nah.

Yes, Christine, there are certain industries where clients know they will pay a full segment of time even if only a portion of the segment was actually taken up by work.

 

If this were what Upwork's system did, and it was fully disclosed to freelancers and clients, then no problem.

 

Do you think this is what's happening with TimeTracker and freelancer and clients are both fully aware that this is how the system works?


Will L wrote:

Yes, Christine, there are certain industries where clients know they will pay a full segment of time even if only a portion of the segment was actually taken up by work.

 

If this were what Upwork's system did, and it was fully disclosed to freelancers and clients, then no problem.

 

Do you think this is what's happening with TimeTracker and freelancer and clients are both fully aware that this is how the system works?


Yes, Will, I think that if freelancers and clients are concerned about such things, then an explanation isn't difficult to find. Are you actually experiencing a lot of situations in which your clients are asking for a refund of 5 minutes? 

Christine,

 

I don't have to wait for other people to complain before I fix something that needs fixing.

 

In this case, I want to know my billings to my clients are precise, not something "close enough." And I want to know that I don't need to review my daily TimeTracker time booked. (For non-Upwork clients, I easily provide accurate billings using 21st century software that is available to anyone.)

 

There really is no good excuse for Upwork not to track actual time.

 

If you don't care about accuracy, good for you. But if you don't care then you have no reason to oppose Upwork implementing a more accurate system. 


Will L wrote:

Christine,

 

I don't have to wait for other people to complain before I fix something that needs fixing.

 

In this case, I want to know my billings to my clients are precise, not something "close enough." And I want to know that I don't need to review my daily TimeTracker time booked. (For non-Upwork clients, I easily provide accurate billings using 21st century software that is available to anyone.)

 

There really is no good excuse for Upwork not to track actual time.

 

If you don't care about accuracy, good for you. But if you don't care then you have no reason to oppose Upwork implementing a more accurate system. 


I just think that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. By your own admission, this isn't really a problem, therefore why not hope that Upwork will focus on the things that are bigger problems?

 

I guess it also depends on what you do, you might be doing things away from the computer for the project or your project is long and involved.  I do a lot of one off projects and due the nature of them (I make pretty spreadsheets) I figure clients expect me to be working all the time that I'm billing. 

 

If I was doing something that took a month or more and the deliverables were visible to the client so they could see the progress, then I might not be concerned about low activity screenshots.

Maybe I worry too much about client satisfaction and am overly concerned with clients getting a poor impression of my work. 

 

I dunno, I make it up as I go along. 🙂

 


Julie J wrote:

I guess it also depends on what you do, you might be doing things away from the computer for the project or your project is long and involved.  I do a lot of one off projects and due the nature of them (I make pretty spreadsheets) I figure clients expect me to be working all the time that I'm billing. 

 

If I was doing something that took a month or more and the deliverables were visible to the client so they could see the progress, then I might not be concerned about low activity screenshots.

Maybe I worry too much about client satisfaction and am overly concerned with clients getting a poor impression of my work. 

 

I dunno, I make it up as I go along. 🙂

 


That's a good point - I would be a lot more careful to fill up a time segement if it was a shorter project. But just to clarify, I wasn't saying that I don't work during all of the time that I'm tracking, I just don't worry that much about waiting to stop the tracker exactly at a 10-minute point, if I happen to be finished at the 5-minute mark.

richard_wein
Community Member


Talal B wrote:

Hello!

 

I've noticed that the way the Activity Level is calculated/displayed can be potentially hugely misleading to my clients. It is calculating it in 10-minute chunks regardless of whether you have stopped the tracking or not, so if I take a break at like 2:12 pm and STOP the tracking client, the Activity Level will actually show me having a 2/10 activity on that 10-minute chunk - certainly giving the impression that I was doing nothing for 8 minutes while billing for it (which is definitely not the case).


The problem is that it shows the absolute number of minutes with activity, not the proportion of tracked minutes with activity. And it doesn't correctly show the absolute number of minutes with activity, because it doesn't show any activity at all in those partially-tracked segments where you don't get a snapshot. So overall it understates your activity.

 

Upwork should consult a mathematician before implementing its algorithms!

Latest Articles
Featured Topics
Learning Paths