Aug 14, 2019 07:26:11 AM by Katherine T
Aug 14, 2019 07:30:09 AM by Jennifer M
You have two options: do what he says or tell him to kick rocks. Decide which one you wanna go with and do it.
Aug 14, 2019 07:38:07 AM by Robin H
If you decide to move forward with the project, understand he'll probably do it again in the future. So you'll want to **bleep** it in the bud early.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Robin
Aug 14, 2019 07:39:22 AM by Preston H
Katherine:
I know you want to do the right thing.
But you are NOT in charge of Upwork's policies.
Upwork does not allow clients to ask for free work. Doing so is explicitly identified as a violation of Upwork's ToS. And that is what is happening if a client asks you to do work that is outside of the original agreed-upon scope.
When I have a fixed-price contract, I do what is in the contract, and nothing more.
If a client asks for something that is out of scope, I tell them that yes, I would like to help with that, but they would need to close the current fixed-price contract first and set up a new hourly or fixed-price contract so that I can do the additional work.
Depending on the situation, I might NOT offer a separate fixed-price contract as an option. Some tasks should only be worked on using an hourly contract. Some clients should only be worked for using an hourly contract.
I don't know if any of my advice applies directly to your situation. But hopefully this provide some additional perspective.
Aug 14, 2019 07:51:05 AM Edited Aug 14, 2019 07:52:17 AM by Petra R
Preston H wrote:
Upwork does not allow clients to ask for free work. Doing so is explicitly identified as a violation of Upwork's ToS. And that is what is happening if a client asks you to do work that is outside of the original agreed-upon scope.
When I have a fixed-price contract, I do what is in the contract, and nothing more.
This is not the case here. This is a milestone based contract and the OP and the client are in the middle of negotiations on the next milestone. This is not the client asking for free work.
Katherine, simply tell the client that you will charge $ XXX.XX for this milestone with X words according to his specifications. Then see what he says.
There is no need to get all controversial and throw around accusations of asking for free work or trying to force the client to end the contract after a number of successful milestones and a great working relationship.
Negotiating and setting boundaries is part of running your own business. Neither rolling over and doing more work for less money, nor stomping in with a sledgehammer are successful business strategies.
Just be friendly, professional and firm and tell him what it costs to produce what he is asking for. He can take it or leave it.
Aug 14, 2019 07:47:00 AM Edited Aug 14, 2019 08:11:08 AM by Mark F
Katherine T wrote:
Good day everyone,
I'm feeling a little confused about how to proceed with a client and thought I'd ask for advice.
I've been working with a great client for a few months - doing research and writing for his business in a field that I have lots of experience and understanding of. I've completed 6 successful milestones and he is happy.
I don't do what you do so maybe I don't understand but I think what you need to do is end this project (to be crystal clear get the client to END the project), get your feedback, and get him to start another one. For me milestones would be building on the existing project, so if you were writing a book, maybe every chapter is a milestone (forgive me if the analogy sucks, I am a programmer, what do I know).
So, if this is new stuff, something you have never done before I would suggest this needs to be a new project and have him close the existing one, give you your review, and then you start fresh. If you can't get what you want for this project, then don't accept it. Don't allow yourself to be held hostage over a review.
If you actually did 6 different things instead of 6 different milestones on one thing you would have 6 projects on your credit, positive reviews, and less fear about the final project not going the way the guy wants.
I also assume all clients think or rate is too high but they also know that the search to find someone like you who can do what they want reliably is HARD. They might be able to find cheaper and just as good but they risk finding cheaper and earning a load of hassles.
Aug 14, 2019 08:13:19 AM by Amy R
I like Mark's idea....because this is something you are not familiar with close the current contract - have him leave you your rating/feedback, and request to start another contract specifically for this project. I have done this many times so that I am sure I receive good feedback on the work I've already completed and I know the client is very happy with.
I would also set expectations with the client. If you are unsure whether you even want to do it, set up a project of XX hours first to research preliminarily and make sure you want to do the work, and also if he would want you to based on what you've found in the preliminary research. Maybe you suggest 20 hours to start (or even 10 depending on the subject). This would be the initial contract....then talk about what you've found, what he's looking for, make sure you want to do it and he is on board too. Tell him upfront you have reservations because of your level of experience in this area so you'd prefer to proceed this way.
So close out your current contract and get your feedback, set expections with the client - you might not want to do it, but you'd sure like to give it a try! so open a small contract to preliminarily take a look into the project, chat w/client to see if you want to proceed. This way he knows upfront you might not want to do it.
Aug 14, 2019 12:03:56 PM by Tiffany S
Mark, while I agree it would be great in this case to end the contract and start a new one, it's not typical for clients with ongoing writing needs. The "project" is often "blogging" or "website updates" and new milestones are added weekly or monthly or as new needs arise without a clear end point.
Aug 14, 2019 12:20:56 PM by Mark F
Tiffany S wrote:Mark, while I agree it would be great in this case to end the contract and start a new one, it's not typical for clients with ongoing writing needs. The "project" is often "blogging" or "website updates" and new milestones are added weekly or monthly or as new needs arise without a clear end point.
Good to know. I did try to preference my ignorance.
Aug 14, 2019 08:14:18 AM by Phyllis G
What Petra said. Life would be a dream if we never had to negotiate, especially with people we already know and like. Life is not a dream.
Ideally, you want the client to grasp the difference between what you've been doing and what the new assignment involves, and perceive the value underlying the higher compensation. If you agree to do the new task for less than it's really worth, he won't learn that. Furthermore, he may eventually wonder if he paid too much for the work you did before. So, as Petra advised, be friendly and professional and business-like. (If you contact your ISP and tell them you want a faster speed and they quote you the price, you don't then say, "OK, for that amount I want to also add more lines." That is, you could, but they'd say, "In that case, it's gonna cost you [even more]."
Aug 14, 2019 08:35:11 AM by Madhu K
i think you should hire someone to complete the work. make sure the person you hire is new to field with
little experiance.
Aug 14, 2019 08:38:38 AM by Amy R
Madhu can we do this? I mean I guess we could...and a client has done this with me, but I find it somehow wrong. I had to remote to his machine, log on with his credentials and complete his work, which he passed off as his own. I didn't like it and eventually stopped working with him. That is how he completed all his work. I don't know why but it doesn't sit right with me. Maybe it is fine....I wonder what others think.
Aug 14, 2019 09:04:48 AM by Petra R
Amy R wrote:I had to remote to his machine, log on with his credentials and complete his work, which he passed off as his own. I didn't like it and eventually stopped working with him. That is how he completed all his work. I don't know why but it doesn't sit right with me.
On fixed rate contracts only with the knowledge and consent of the client. With hourly contracts, not at all. If you logged into his Upwork tracker, for example, that would be a massive issue...
Aug 14, 2019 09:09:38 AM by Mark F
Amy R wrote:Madhu can we do this? I mean I guess we could...and a client has done this with me, but I find it somehow wrong. I had to remote to his machine, log on with his credentials and complete his work, which he passed off as his own. I didn't like it and eventually stopped working with him. That is how he completed all his work. I don't know why but it doesn't sit right with me. Maybe it is fine....I wonder what others think.
I believe on a fixed priced contract you can sub the work out. I am not sure what you have to inform the client about, but ethically I think you should.
You can't login to another person's Upwork account and run the time tracker thing. I know you didn't do that but if you had, that would definitely be a violation of Upwork's TOS. A job like that the client has to hire you both.
My problem is, even if I wanted to, I only trust a very narrow slice of humanity to do what I do. That narrow slice doesn't really need me to find them work.
Aug 14, 2019 09:14:30 AM by Amy R
Aug 14, 2019 08:41:31 AM by Katherine T
Aug 14, 2019 08:44:12 AM by Preston H
re: "Sorry, not sure what you mean. I should hire another freelancer with very little experience to do the work?"
He was not suggesting that you do this.
I think he was gently (sarcastically) chiding clients who pressure freelancers to do work that they aren't experienced or knowledgeable about.
Aug 16, 2019 09:19:52 AM by Madhu K
yes its a sub-contract method.. if you hire fresher you can ask him quickly before due.you can recommend him new i just like a group work.their is moral to helping others
Aug 16, 2019 09:56:14 AM by Petra R
Madhu K wrote:yes its a sub-contract method.. if you hire fresher you can ask him quickly before due.you can recommend him new i just like a group work.their is moral to helping others
This is not how it works on Upwork. Or in any professional environment.
Aug 16, 2019 10:10:23 AM by Madhu K
Professional or non-Professional,work always a work and Business alway a Business
Aug 14, 2019 08:46:23 AM by Petra R
Madhu K wrote:i think you
should hire someone to complete the work. make sure the person you hire is new to field with
little experiance.
I think you should refrain from giving dreadful advice.
Aug 14, 2019 08:50:01 AM by Amy R
Yeah Petra....even if he was being sarcastic it's not helpful at all for someone who is really looking for help and guidance. And if he was serious that *is* dreadful advice!!
Aug 14, 2019 08:49:07 AM by Katherine T
Aug 14, 2019 09:05:35 AM by Mark F
Katherine T wrote:
Just want to thank everyone for the helpful and reassuring advice!
Now I just need to figure out how to ask him to close the current contract and open another one. It just might come across strange as the job description hasn't really changed-- it's just more work/research time for this "milestone".
I could just be direct and ask for a higher rate for what he wants. Or state what I'm prepared to do for the current amount and he can take it or leave it. 😕
I think only you can figure out how to negotiate this or even IF you should. I definitely do not understand your situation, but it would be the best thing for you for sure.
Aug 14, 2019 09:09:47 AM by Virginia F
Katherine T wrote:
Just want to thank everyone for the helpful and reassuring advice!
Now I just need to figure out how to ask him to close the current contract and open another one. It just might come across strange as the job description hasn't really changed-- it's just more work/research time for this "milestone".
I could just be direct and ask for a higher rate for what he wants. Or state what I'm prepared to do for the current amount and he can take it or leave it. 😕
Katherine,
You've received good advice from almost everyone. I'm going to suggest that if you haven't done so, go back to your bid/contract, where job expectations were (hopefully) clearly stated, including possible out of scope work. It may help your argument to point out that what he is asking for was not part of your original contract.
Moving forward, make sure scope and scope creep is always addressed in your bids - that will always give you a leg to stand on.
My 2¢ - I didn't read all the answers you got, so if this was already suggested, apologies.
Aug 14, 2019 09:11:35 AM by Mark F
Virginia F wrote:
Katherine T wrote:
Just want to thank everyone for the helpful and reassuring advice!
Now I just need to figure out how to ask him to close the current contract and open another one. It just might come across strange as the job description hasn't really changed-- it's just more work/research time for this "milestone".
I could just be direct and ask for a higher rate for what he wants. Or state what I'm prepared to do for the current amount and he can take it or leave it. 😕Katherine,
You've received good advice from almost everyone. I'm going to suggest that if you haven't done so, go back to your bid/contract, where job expectations were (hopefully) clearly stated, including possible out of scope work. It may help your argument to point out that what he is asking for was not part of your original contract.
Moving forward, make sure scope and scope creep is always addressed in your bids - that will always give you a leg to stand on.
My 2¢ - I didn't read all the answers you got, so if this was already suggested, apologies.
I don't think it was and it bears repeating anyway.
Always define scope before you take the work. It is the measure twice, cut once of this kind of work if you ask me.
It is also a HARD task sometimes when the client only has whims and fancy.
Aug 14, 2019 09:36:40 AM by Katherine T
Aug 14, 2019 10:51:44 AM by Phyllis G
Katherine T wrote:
Great advice! Thank you.
Luckily, in my original proposal I stated what I'd do (how many words written) for the amount offered. We didn't really discuss it further, but he hired me.
It's slowly crept up and I let it slide once or twice 😞
I brought it up twice and he agreed to pay slightly more for those two occasions when more work was done. Now it seems he's pushing it much more!
I'll definately bring up that.
Writing is not usually my main thing but when I do it, I distinguish between writing from raw material provided by the client, and writing from topics/direction provided by the client where I have to do the research to generate the "meat". Those are qualitatively different kinds of assignments and not everyone who can do one can do the other. It's "can you take this stack of pre-cut materials and this diagram, and assemble this desk for me?" versus "can you take this diagram and materials list and build me a desk?"
Aug 14, 2019 11:10:01 AM by Katherine T
Aug 18, 2019 01:41:31 AM by Katherine T
Aug 18, 2019 02:19:41 AM by Petra R
Well done, you and thanks for coming back with an update.
Great that you managed to take what was suggested, make it yours, and learned from the process.
I really believe that the vast majority of clients are not intentionally evil, often they really don't see what they are doing and what effect it has.
Aug 18, 2019 07:23:17 AM by Phyllis G
Good job, Katherine!
It would be great if there was a way to flag and index threads that turn out to be particularly instructive, so others encountering similar situations could find them easily.
Aug 18, 2019 08:23:03 AM by Preston H
re: "I really believe that the vast majority of clients are not intentionally evil, often they really don't see what they are doing and what effect it has."
This is a fantastic point.
I think most Upwork clients are great.
In the Community Forum, we talk a LOT about bad client behavior, because freelancers don't come here to complain when everything is going fine.
As Katherine found out... Even when things seemed to be going badly, it didn't mean the client was a bad person, and by handling things professionally, she was able to help the client do the right thing.
Aug 18, 2019 09:12:30 AM by Mark F
Katherine T wrote:
Hello everyone,
Just wanted to give an update.
I think it is awesome that you gave an update, great how it turned out, and amazing your approach to what you were told and where you went with it.
This is very refreshing because so many people on this forum take any critical advice as criticism and any suggestion of change as a negative attack.
You also clearly illustrated that clients are people too.
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