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samanthawriter7
Community Member

Anxious and looking for opinions on a situation

A client issue. Hoping to get some insight and opinions here, if possible.

It's pretty complicated, so just to keep it straight (even in my own head), I'm going to make a numbered list of what happened. The project was/is an approximately 40,000-word book of English idioms. I was only contracted to provide the content, not to actually format an e-book.

  1. The client suggested that I use Excel to collect the idioms, indicating that it would be easier and more effective than Word. He strongly implied that it would be easy to transfer them to Word afterwards, and he never mentioned anything about the fact I would have to put the material in a specifically formatted document.
  2. Once I had reached the number of idioms needed to proceed with going into Word, he said to send the file to him and he would create a properly formatted file.
  3. All he sent me as a template and a video, showing how I was supposed to transfer the idioms to Word.
  4. I realized that he wanted me to cut and paste each idiom, explanation, and example individually. There are nearly 1,400 idioms. I tried to see if I could just cut and paste the whole Excel file, but found that it would ruin the formatting of his template.
  5. I pointed out that if I'd just done it in Word to begin with, it would have been far easier and that all that cutting and pasting would take me several hours.
  6. He said to stop what I was doing and send the cutting and pasting I had done so far to him (I'd done about 100 idioms by that point). He indicated that he was going to do it and then send it back to me to review and add to.
  7. A couple of days later, he told me that he had sent it to an "employee" (whom I later found out was another freelancer!) to be done. I objected to this, pointing out that he could have just set up another milestone for me. Obviously, the other freelancer was cheaper.
  8. He then claimed that he had asked me to completely do it in Word from the beginning. By this point, I was extremely exasperated and pointed out that he was lying.
  9. He became angry and there was some exchange back and forth.
  10. In the end, he said that he no longer trusted me with the project, and that he wouldn't be sending me the Word file once he received it (whenever that will be). He claimed he thought that I would "sabotage" the project. I was extremely offended by this, and I said so.
  11. I have sent a message to him explaining that I want to finish the project myself, as the Excel file must have many typos (as I had been planning all along to fix all of that once it was in the Word file). I have not heard back.

Do you think I was being reasonable here? And what about him? I honestly don't know how all this happened. Everything seemed to be going so well before this. 

I'm feeling really anxious and am afraid that he will twist things around in the review and say that there were typos in the work when he knows very well that I planned to fix those once working on the actual Word document. For some reason, I just feel like a total failure. Please note that I have already earned about $500 from the earlier milestones of this project, and so just completely canceling the project is not an option. 

 

32 REPLIES 32
petra_r
Community Member


Samantha L wrote:
  1. By this point, I was extremely exasperated and pointed out that he was lying.

Well, breakdown in communication all round.

 

The ship has sailed I'm afraid. Once you call a client a liar and start a fight, it's game over.

The client has every right to give any part of a project to whomever he wants. The only bit you are "owed" as such is whatever is funded.

 

NEVER argue with a client. Even if you win the argument, you still lose (the client, the project and on Upwork, the good feedback you could have had.)

 

 

Obviously submitting something that is full of mistakes was not a good idea either.

You didn't read my post properly, did you? I submitted it on the understanding that it would be put into Word and then I would check it. But obviously you want to put me down. 


Samantha L wrote:

You didn't read my post properly, did you? I submitted it on the understanding that it would be put into Word and then I would check it. But obviously you want to put me down. 


I did read it and I don't want to put you down.

Having read the job post I got as far as "expert level" and "you will be paid $17 per 1k words. "

 

Sigh.

 

You're top-rated, if the worst comes to the worst, use your perk and have the feedback removed (if you haven't used the perk in the last 3 months / 10 contracts. The client does not have a history of leaving (or receiving) poor feedback so maybe this is salvageable. He only once left less than a 4.6.

 

There is, I am told, a way to import excel sheet content into Word as well but I don't know how that works and it seems to be too late anyway.

 

If you can't sort it with the client try ending the contract yourself in the hope that the client won't leave feedback at all.

 

I still stand by my earlier statement that you can't ever win a fight with a client.

 

 

 

martina_plaschka
Community Member


Samantha L wrote:

A client issue. Hoping to get some insight and opinions here, if possible.

It's pretty complicated, so just to keep it straight (even in my own head), I'm going to make a numbered list of what happened. The project was/is an approximately 40,000-word book of English idioms. I was only contracted to provide the content, not to actually format an e-book.

  1. The client suggested that I use Excel to collect the idioms, indicating that it would be easier and more effective than Word. He strongly implied that it would be easy to transfer them to Word afterwards, and he never mentioned anything about the fact I would have to put the material in a specifically formatted document.
  2. Once I had reached the number of idioms needed to proceed with going into Word, he said to send the file to him and he would create a properly formatted file.
  3. All he sent me as a template and a video, showing how I was supposed to transfer the idioms to Word.
  4. I realized that he wanted me to cut and paste each idiom, explanation, and example individually. There are nearly 1,400 idioms. I tried to see if I could just cut and paste the whole Excel file, but found that it would ruin the formatting of his template.
  5. I pointed out that if I'd just done it in Word to begin with, it would have been far easier and that all that cutting and pasting would take me several hours.
  6. He said to stop what I was doing and send the cutting and pasting I had done so far to him (I'd done about 100 idioms by that point). He indicated that he was going to do it and then send it back to me to review and add to.
  7. A couple of days later, he told me that he had sent it to an "employee" (whom I later found out was another freelancer!) to be done. I objected to this, pointing out that he could have just set up another milestone for me. Obviously, the other freelancer was cheaper.
  8. He then claimed that he had asked me to completely do it in Word from the beginning. By this point, I was extremely exasperated and pointed out that he was lying.
  9. He became angry and there was some exchange back and forth.
  10. In the end, he said that he no longer trusted me with the project, and that he wouldn't be sending me the Word file once he received it (whenever that will be). He claimed he thought that I would "sabotage" the project. I was extremely offended by this, and I said so.
  11. I have sent a message to him explaining that I want to finish the project myself, as the Excel file must have many typos (as I had been planning all along to fix all of that once it was in the Word file). I have not heard back.

Do you think I was being reasonable here? And what about him? I honestly don't know how all this happened. Everything seemed to be going so well before this. 

I'm feeling really anxious and am afraid that he will twist things around in the review and say that there were typos in the work when he knows very well that I planned to fix those once working on the actual Word document. For some reason, I just feel like a total failure. Please note that I have already earned about $500 from the earlier milestones of this project, and so just completely canceling the project is not an option. 

 


You are looking for a referee here, but that's no way to conduct your business. It does  not matter who was right or wrong, who lied, who accused the other of lying. This is not kindergarden. What matters is money and feedback. 

Salvage what you can by whatever means that you see fit and hope for feedback that's not disastrous. 

Martina--What an incredibly rude and condescending comment. 


Samantha L wrote:

Martina--What an incredibly rude and condescending comment. 


Did you treat your client in a similar manner as your reply to my comment?

Anonymous-User
Not applicable

According to some of the closed projects, clients have been pretty clear in their public ratings that communication seems to be a big issue.

There's nothing more anyone can do for her. She'll have to get it on her own.
gilbert-phyllis
Community Member


Samantha L wrote:

...

Do you think I was being reasonable here? And what about him? I honestly don't know how all this happened. Everything seemed to be going so well before this. 

I'm feeling really anxious and am afraid that he will twist things around in the review and say that there were typos in the work when he knows very well that I planned to fix those once working on the actual Word document. For some reason, I just feel like a total failure. Please note that I have already earned about $500 from the earlier milestones of this project, and so just completely canceling the project is not an option. 

 


What Petra said. You dug yourself into a hole on this one. The best you can do now is figure out what lessons it holds, and take them to heart.

 

NEVER send anything to a client that contains typos or any other easily corrected flaws. It doesn't matter if it's a first draft, rough draft, will be refined/formatted/checked later in the process. This is why. (You can't bill yourself as a "perfectionist" and then submit even a draft with typos, and not expect it to bite you.)

 

You could have avoided the whole kerfluffle--and preserved your own value to the client--by figuring out how to achieve his goals without spending a zillion hours on it. This forum would have been a great place to get tips on how to do that. One workaround would be to copy the contents of the spreadsheet into a blank Word document, then reformat that one before transferring the contents into the client's formatted doc. The operative concept: when an unexpected challenge arises, find a win-win solution. It often involves more time than you planned but it's worth it to avoid having a project go sideways and you get a new skill for your toolkit.

 

Also, it sounds like the client "suggested" using Excel to collect the material. I'll bet he didn't really care how you did it, as long as it ultimately could be formatted the way he needed it. Your profile implies you know how to handle manuscripts including e-books, so I can understand how he might have become frustrated. If I were you, I'd invest some time learning fundamentals of various document types and formatting tasks. It can help you work more efficiently and be more versatile and valuable to clients. Otherwise, always make perfectly clear that you are only willing to work in Word and you do not do formatting.

 

If my feedback makes you defensive, save your breath on a snippy reply. You asked.

Well, according to all of you, I'm pretty much worthless as a freelancer now and should just give up. And of course, I imagine you are all perfect. You're right. I shouldn't have asked for feedback here. All anyone ever gives is abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here told me to jump off a bridge, just as "well-meaning advice."   

 


Samantha L wrote:

Well, according to all of you, I'm pretty much worthless as a freelancer now and should just give up. And of course, I imagine you are all perfect. You're right. I shouldn't have asked for feedback here. All anyone ever gives is abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here told me to jump off a bridge, just as "well-meaning advice."   

 


Nobody suggested anything of the sort, but the above post demonstrates perfectly how you ended up in the situation in the first place.

 

If that is anywhere near how you reacted to the client, I am not surprised he walked away.

 

While I understand your frustration in this matter, please note that the 'criticism' given was constructive in nature and, I believe, not meant to offend you. The freelancers that have given said constructive criticism may seem blunt in their summations, but on the other hand, they are all professionals with great track records and have assumed the same in their answers.

 

I do not believe anyone was 'attacking' you. I think, and this is my personal opinion, that you feel hurt with what has transpired between yourself and the client. 

Yes, I do feel hurt. I'm glad at least someone here has empathy. 


Irene B wrote:

I think, and this is my personal opinion, that you feel hurt with what has transpired between yourself and the client. 


Of course she does. We all (?) would. Everyone hates it when a contract goes south. I get super upset when a client doesn't love my work, I really do.

 

I guess we forgot the obligatory sympathy statement. Yes, we are actually all (I am sure) sorry that this has happened. It sucks when things go wrong.

 

Sympathy, however, does not help you. Practical advice (whether you like its delivery or not) helps.

 

 

Oh, is that so? You guys really enjoy kicking someone when they're down, don't you? 

You are anxious and upset by your own admission so I think you should consider that and maybe take a step back for a second.

 

You asked for opinions, you got them,  you don't like them, you have been personal and defensive in each response.

 

You don't need to be.  They are just opinions.  I am not sure they are the personal attacks you see them as.  The members who have responded, in my short time here, have strong opinions and willingly express them.  People like that are not always gentle but that does not mean they are malicious either.

 

The same is true of your client's inevitable feedback.  You are giving it WAY too much weight.  I would try to listen to it and learn.  But that does not mean you have to own it.

 

I had other things I was going to say about this but once I read how this went down I won't.

Thank you. What you said about my giving it too much weight really helped to calm me down.   

I am glad I could help to whatever extent that I did.  Maybe you will return me the favor someday.  

 

Working with clients is difficult.  Working with cheap clients is the worst.  Although I do not feel you did everything as I would have, and you almost certainly could have done things better (which is always true for all of us), I will say I am sorry this happened to you.

 

But again.  Just one client.  You will survive.    I am certain of it.

 

My advice to you, and to myself, is to remember if we wanted one person's opinion to have such a strong hold over us we would work for a boss...

Hi All,

 

A few posts have been removed from this thread for Community GuidelinesPlease, be mindful of the Community Guidelines and avoid making personal attacks.

~ Bojan
Upwork


Samantha L wrote:

Well, according to all of you, I'm pretty much worthless as a freelancer now and should just give up. And of course, I imagine you are all perfect. You're right. I shouldn't have asked for feedback here. All anyone ever gives is abuse. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here told me to jump off a bridge, just as "well-meaning advice."   

 


None of us said, and none of us believe, that you are worthless as a freelancer. And even if we did, your UW earnings prove it's not the case. You simply ran into a situation you weren't prepared for. It happens to all of us, no matter how long we've been in the business. I've been supporting myself exclusively through freelancing for well over 20 years and I still learn a tough and humbling lesson from time to time. The reason Petra and Martina and I are so unwavering and direct in our comments is that we've been there. Some lessons I've had to learn more than once, so I offer advice to others in hopes they might get it the first time around.

 

One more pro tip: Speaking strictly for myself, I've found that embarrassment is the single most powerful motivator for learning from my mistakes.

 

 

Anonymous-User
Not applicable

Oh stop it.
You asked for feedback. You got the most professional, successful freelancers to respond.

I read your post as well and first red flag I noticed was that you knew Word was better and you didn't take control of the project from the start.

You can't post for advice then get upset because you don't get the answers you want. You're going to get the answers you need to succeed. If you brush that off, then you will continue to have problems.

Freelancing is a business. You are in business for yourself. Calling clients liars and picking fights with the professional community is a fast track to failure.

Try to read through the advice you've gotten and look for the ways to improve.
feed_my_eyes
Community Member


Samantha L wrote:

Oooo, so very, very clever. And biting, too! You must be so impressed every time you read your own remarks. 


Pot, kettle? You seem to be attacking everyone who disagrees with you.

 

Anyway, in case you still want some constructive advice - it IS possible to just copy and paste and entire Excel file into Word with just one click, and format and spell check from there. So if you're tired of reading the comments in this forum, the Microsoft tip forums might be more to your liking.

So here's the deal. Your client might have been completely unreasonable. You are bound to run across one of those if you do this long enough. And yeah it sucks.

I think where things went south was calling the client a liar. Sometimes it's best to respond to a situation in a draft statement and then come back 24 hours later and read the draft before sending. Abraham Lincoln used that method for communication. Write in the heat of the moment, but generally end up throwing it away 24 hours later and crafting a more tempered message.

See, once you used the word liar, well the client can only be offended and lash out at you. No one likes to be called a liar, even if they are one. Would you like to be called a liar? It can only spiral out of control from that point. Both you and the client are feeling hurt and only want to hurt the other person. Not good.

The question is what can you do about it at this point? If you want to salvage the contract, you could figure out how to get the Excel sheet in Word, humble yourself, reach out to client, apologize for the miscommunication and let him know that you've discovered how it can be done and it would be your pleasure to complete the job. Those words might taste terrible in your mouth, but it could be done.

The other option is to use your perk and remove the crappy feedback you know is coming.


Cheryl K wrote:

So here's the deal. Your client might have been completely unreasonable. You are bound to run across one of those if you do this long enough. And yeah it sucks.

I think where things went south was calling the client a liar. Sometimes it's best to respond to a situation in a draft statement and then come back 24 hours later and read the draft before sending. Abraham Lincoln used that method for communication. Write in the heat of the moment, but generally end up throwing it away 24 hours later and crafting a more tempered message.

See, once you used the word liar, well the client can only be offended and lash out at you. No one likes to be called a liar, even if they are one. Would you like to be called a liar? It can only spiral out of control from that point. Both you and the client are feeling hurt and only want to hurt the other person. Not good.

The question is what can you do about it at this point? If you want to salvage the contract, you could figure out how to get the Excel sheet in Word, humble yourself, reach out to client, apologize for the miscommunication and let him know that you've discovered how it can be done and it would be your pleasure to complete the job. Those words might taste terrible in your mouth, but it could be done.

The other option is to use your perk and remove the crappy feedback you know is coming.


I totally agree. Even when I KNOW I'm right, and have the paperwork to back it up, I will still just apologize to the client and move on because JSS is more valuable than money.

 

I also agree, even though I may be the most thin-skinned person you will ever meet, that Petra and others were genuinely trying to help. Some people have a different style of communication, and ALL of us have had clients and situations like this. I come from the land of "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" but I appreciate the brutal honesty too... it's all helpful.


Kelly B wrote:


 because JSS is more valuable than money.

 

This is exactly the broken mentality that has freelancers working for weeks on a $10 project because they're terrified they won't get the right number of stars.

 

Pictures of gold stars do not pay the rent, feed your family, or take the kids to DisneyWorld. Those of us who understand that we're running businesses do those things with money, not accolades.


Tiffany S wrote:

Kelly B wrote:


 because JSS is more valuable than money.

 

This is exactly the broken mentality that has freelancers working for weeks on a $10 project because they're terrified they won't get the right number of stars.

 

Pictures of gold stars do not pay the rent, feed your family, or take the kids to DisneyWorld. Those of us who understand that we're running businesses do those things with money, not accolades.


I don't take jobs for $10 and I make plenty of money, although trips to DisneyWorld are lightyears away from something I would do. I'm just saying for the most part, the customer is always right, and I will swallow my pride if necessary to complete a project while keeping the client happy, rather than rock the boat, because nothing good will come from rocking the boat. I'll lose money *and* my JSS will take a hit, and that does me no good.

 

Pictures of gold stars just might pay the rent actually, if you believe some other threads, where freelancers complain about not being able to land projects with a JSS of less than 90% (and no, I don't keep all my eggs in one UW basket, but the fact remains that JSS *does* matter on this site).

tlsanders
Community Member

I don't think you were reasonable, but not in the way you mean. I think the whole thing went irretrievably to hell when you just started quietly doing the extra work you hadn't signed on for. You lost your chance to credibly object, and then the whole situation was primed to blow up when you eventually decided to draw a line.

 

At this point, there's not much you can do to avoid a hit to your JSS (unless you're top rated and have the removal perk available), so push to make sure you get paid for every minute of work you've already done and move on. 

joansands
Community Member

Samantha - I think the mistake you made was at your point number 7. A client has a perfect right to make a change in the work he wants to be done - and your client had a right to get another person involved in doing his work. Everything went downhill from there when you objected to what he did and then ended up calling him a liar. So, now I think all you can do is try to get paid for the work you did and get the contract closed, and then try to learn from this episode. We all make mistakes. No one is perfect. But, if we are not making mistakes, it means we aren't doing anything. The good thing about mistakes is that we can learn from them.

kat303
Community Member

Samantha - I think both of you were being unreasonable. And I also think there was a total breakdown of understanding and communication from the very beginning. And that started with the program to be used, Excel or Word. I can't comment on that because I don't have access to the actual conversation between you and him. 

 

When you finished the requirements of the job, the file that you delivered should have been delivered formatted, checked for spelling errors and anything else that had to be done to make a complete, finished spreadsheet which is what the client wanted. 

 

When the client wanted you to export the content from Excel into Word (which, can't be done aside from cutting and pasting) that is work that is above and beyond what you were hired for and if you wanted to do that, it should have required an additional contract. 

 

As for this client hiring another freelancer to do the cutting and pasting or formatting or whatever - that is his right. You fulfilled your part of the project. Aside from this job going down hill from the beginning it totally blew up when you called this client a liar. Even in the B&M world it's said, "the customer is always right" You could have handled this so much more professionally and diplomatically and probably salvaged this job. The fire was lit and by accusing the client as a liar gasoline was poured on the fire. 

 

IMO at point (and a lot sooner IMO) walked away but you didn't help yourself by saying that you wanted to finish the project yourself. (like the client had no right to hire someone else) If you wanted to finish the project yourself, even with that added scope creep, you should have just done it and not complained, called him a liar and continued to have back and forth arguments. 

 

I will be blunt with you. and I can just imagine how this all went down seeing how you are responding to suggestions and advice that you have received because as soon as something is suggested and it's not what you want to hear, you get very defensive and easily riled up and are quick to accuse. 

 

 

tlbp
Community Member

First, to clarify for those who may read this thread in the future, content can be transferred from a data table (such as Excel or a database) into a specific format in Word using the mail merge feature. This method of data handling is very convenient when you need to manage sort or filter a large set of data before selecting what will be entered into the final document. Storing the data in a table also allows you to create several different documents using various subsets of data. 

Second, a client may hire and fire a freelancer at will. Freelancers secure their payment by only completing funded milestones or working on an hourly basis. If a client does hire someone else to complete a task, the original freelancer should take that as an emphatic signal that the client is unhappy. In such cases, the original freelancer may attempt to make amends or accept the situation and do whatever tasks are necessary to make the transition as smooth as possible for the client. 

I cannot imagine any situation where a freelancer who aggressively objects to being replaced would succeed. The relationship may be recoverable, but certainly not if the freelancer approaches the situation with a sense of entitlement. 

Finally, (again for those who may read this thread in the future) based on my experience, the contracts that are most likely to go bad are those in which the freelancer is inexperienced and overreaches. When I took on contracts thinking "I can do this" without fully understanding the nuances of the task, I either ended up performing too much work for too little pay and/or failing to deliver up to the cilent's expectations.

 

It is okay to take on roles that may require you to do some research and stretch your skill set but be cautious when doing so. Even clients who are paying for non-expert level skills will expect the freelancer to have the basic knowledge to complete the task. 


Samantha,

 

I suspect you weren't actually looking for opinions or advice, but for validation of your position. That's OK, it's one of the valuable purposes of the community forums, and I encounter more people seeking validation than actionable advice.

 

The client has the right to specify the format in which fhe deliverable is furnished. As for applications used in which to do the work, the client's advice is only that; do it in Egyptian hieroglyphics using Radio Shack's Color Computer operating system if you wish. It is always a bad idea to send anything to a client that  contains known errors, even if the client has said that is acceptable. The second-worst outcome is losing an argument with a client; the worst outcome is winning the argument.

 

Bluntly, your attitude leaves me shaking my head. Petra and others offered professional advice in a professional manner, and you reacted in a hostile manner. You got what you requested, just not what you wanted: validation of your position. In the future, identify ranting and whining  as such, and people may sympathize if that's what you want. Otherwise, I plan to skip your posts as irrelevant and disruptive. Each of us has a business to run.


Bill H wrote:

You got what you requested, just not what you wanted: validation


Summed up perfectly.

miriam-ocampo
Community Member

It was not entirely your fault, but I think you know it's not a good idea to argue with a client, especially on this platform "when they are always right". I have had a couple of those situations and what I do if it's a small project I just cancel it and refund the money, if it's a big project I offer a partial refund and say sorry it didn't work out. 

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