Solved: Arbitration!

iatoum · ‎09-09-2019

Dear Community Members,

I wonder how Upwork can protect the freelancer when the escrowed amount is released in previous milestones.

Can a client come back and ask to refund (by a dispute or arbitration) even after the amount is released more than one month?

How could Upwork protect the freelancer for his/her writing work if it got rejected(with no real reason) by a client?

Regards

lysis10 · ‎09-09-2019

Dr. Issa A wrote:
If I accept the current dispute, can the client again go for arbitration?

Yes, you and the client can choose it if you can't come to a compromise. So just decide if you want to compromise or go into arbitration. Arbitration has nothing to do with Upwork, so you need to decide if you have a standing and proof that you deserve the money. The client would need to prove that he deserves the money back.

You probably have an idea if you'd win. Note that you can also win part of it and the client gets a partial refund. All of this stuff depends on what happened and the product and all that. First step is mediation though.

View solution in original post

lysis10 · ‎09-09-2019

I've never had someone come back and want a refund, but if a milestone is released and then on a second milestone the client decides to go into arbitration and asks for the full amount back, the money is definitely on the table for the arbiter. Whether or not they can convince the arbiter to give it back to them is another story. It also probably depends on the job and if the milestones are tied together, but idk. Gotta fight it out in arbitration. Upwork has nothing to do with arbitration other than paying their share.

iatoum · ‎09-09-2019

Thanks for your reply.

There are 3 milestones released but the last one is still under dispute we completed one month and the client is still sometimes delaying and other times requesting a full payment back.

please advice, may I send the details in a private message.

lysis10 · ‎09-09-2019

Dr. Issa A wrote:
Thanks for your reply.
There are 3 milestones released but the last one is still under dispute we completed one month and the client is still sometimes delaying and other times requesting a full payment back.

please advice, may I send the details in a private message.

well, if he goes into arbitration he can ask the arbiter for the full amount.

No need to send me a message. I can't tell you what to do other than work through mediation first and then if it goes into arbitration, just get your stuff together including review of messages and defend yourself with facts.

iatoum · ‎09-09-2019

are we then protected as freelancers! what can we do if any client decides to claim back his money!

kat303 · ‎09-09-2019

From what I understand, a client can not dispute if 30 days have passed since the release of the last milestone.

lysis10 · ‎09-09-2019

Kathy T wrote:
From what I understand, a client can not dispute if 30 days have passed since the release of the last milestone.

Not through the Upwork system, but they absolutely can ask the arbiter for all of it back.

iatoum · ‎09-09-2019

I am sorry for asking a lot, but the issue is preventing me from focusing on my current projects. If I accept the current dispute, can the client again go for arbitration?

dsmgdesign · ‎09-09-2019

Jennifer M wrote:
Kathy T wrote:
From what I understand, a client can not dispute if 30 days have passed since the release of the last milestone.
Not through the Upwork system, but they absolutely can ask the arbiter for all of it back.

This is what it says in the TOS:

6.1 DEFINITIONS AND KEY DATES

“Dispute Assistance Deadline” means the date 30 days after the Client was billed for the last milestone.

......Dispute Assistance is not available to either the Freelancer or the Client via the Site after the Dispute Assistance Deadline.

lysis10 · ‎09-09-2019

David S M wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:
Kathy T wrote:
From what I understand, a client can not dispute if 30 days have passed since the release of the last milestone.
Not through the Upwork system, but they absolutely can ask the arbiter for all of it back.

This is what it says in the TOS:

6.1 DEFINITIONS AND KEY DATES
“Dispute Assistance Deadline” means the date 30 days after the Client was billed for the last milestone.

......Dispute Assistance is not available to either the Freelancer or the Client via the Site after the Dispute Assistance Deadline.

Dispute assistance is mediation not arbitration. If the client tells the arbiter they want all their money back, then the arbiter will consider it. They absolutely have every right to get their money back if they win. And Upwork will deduct it from your balance.

You guys gotta stop thinking mediation is arbitration. They are two different things.

iatoum · ‎09-09-2019

the client is asking a full refund!. can Upwork do that or close my account?

are we really protected as freelancers!

tlsanders · ‎09-09-2019

Dr. Issa A wrote:
the client is asking a full refund!. can Upwork do that or close my account?
are we really protected as freelancers!

No. The only protection on fixed price jobs is that you have the right to go to arbitration, if you're willing to pay for it.

iatoum · ‎09-09-2019

If I accept the current dispute, can the client again go for arbitration?

lysis10 · ‎09-09-2019

Dr. Issa A wrote:
If I accept the current dispute, can the client again go for arbitration?

Yes, you and the client can choose it if you can't come to a compromise. So just decide if you want to compromise or go into arbitration. Arbitration has nothing to do with Upwork, so you need to decide if you have a standing and proof that you deserve the money. The client would need to prove that he deserves the money back.

You probably have an idea if you'd win. Note that you can also win part of it and the client gets a partial refund. All of this stuff depends on what happened and the product and all that. First step is mediation though.

prestonhunter · ‎09-09-2019

Dr. Issa:

If you feel like Upwork does not fully protect freelancers... Then you're right.

I like working through Upwork. It has a lot of benefits. I think there ARE some protections.

But no: I do not think Upwork "protects freelancers" from everything that can go wrong, including dishonest clients.

Most of the clients I have worked with are wonderful. No problems with them.

Some clients have NOT been wonderful.

So what do I do? I'm going to tell you, and I want to point out that this is my OWN practice, and I'm NOT suggesting this to ANYBODY ELSE:

I basically DO NOT THINK ABOUT Upwork's "dispute" and "arbitration" processes and instead practice proactive self-protection. With fixed-price contracts, I start with SMALLER contracts only, and make sure that a client can be trusted. If a client lets me submit work and then pays me honestly, then I'll work on successively larger contracts. If a client is going to be a problem, then I'm not into a contract so large and time-consuming that it is going to be a problem for me to just walk away. Because I simply don't want to waste time with clients who are trying to NOT pay me what they agreed to. If they're not going to pay, I can end things and keep the work for myself.

This way of handling things is NOT FOR EVERYBODY. But it works for me.

Fortunately I work in a niche where these things rarely come up. I feel bad for freelancers facing these issues repeatedly. I wish ALL clients were honest and professional. I think MOST are. But some aren't.

dsmgdesign · ‎09-10-2019

Preston H wrote:
Dr. Issa:
If you feel like Upwork does not fully protect freelancers... Then you're right.

I like working through Upwork. It has a lot of benefits. I think there ARE some protections.

But no: I do not think Upwork "protects freelancers" from everything that can go wrong, including dishonest clients.

Most of the clients I have worked with are wonderful. No problems with them.

Some clients have NOT been wonderful.

So what do I do? I'm going to tell you, and I want to point out that this is my OWN practice, and I'm NOT suggesting this to ANYBODY ELSE:

I basically DO NOT THINK ABOUT Upwork's "dispute" and "arbitration" processes and instead practice proactive self-protection. With fixed-price contracts, I start with SMALLER contracts only, and make sure that a client can be trusted. If a client lets me submit work and then pays me honestly, then I'll work on successively larger contracts. If a client is going to be a problem, then I'm not into a contract so large and time-consuming that it is going to be a problem for me to just walk away. Because I simply don't want to waste time with clients who are trying to NOT pay me what they agreed to. If they're not going to pay, I can end things and keep the work for myself.

This way of handling things is NOT FOR EVERYBODY. But it works for me.

Fortunately I work in a niche where these things rarely come up. I feel bad for freelancers facing these issues repeatedly. I wish ALL clients were honest and professional. I think MOST are. But some aren't.

This topic is very timely, and I'm following it closely. I have a potential Upwork client who had decided to hire me. There's some Upwork hurdles we are going through (the client having payment verification issues and such). But the client is working through it. Anyway, just laying the groundwork that the client is very interested. Problem is, there's some red flags and my gut is telling me that perhaps this client is not very above board. I've always learned to trust my gut...it got me as far as I have gotten on Upwork (definitely not spectacular, but I've been happy with the "side money"). Anyway, I don't want to get too specific since things are still pending. However, this is a very large contract (by far my largest ever). It's so large it would really help me out alot, but at the same time it makes me nervous, especially with this issue. I wish there was a way we could make the first contract smaller, and progressively go larger, but that's not the work that's involved. Any suggestions for pro-active self-protection for me?

prestonhunter · ‎09-10-2019

re: "I wish there was a way we could make the first contract smaller, and progressively go larger, but that's not the work that's involved. Any suggestions for pro-active self-protection for me?"

My entire concept here hinges on my ability to create a relatively SMALL CONTRACT with an unknown client - something that takes me only about an hour or two at the most.

And if the client does anything to make things difficult, I can give him the choice:

"Jeremy:

I appreciate the opportunity you provided to work on this project. If my work wasn't what you need, then it is entirely your choice whether to pay for it or not. If you would like to pay the agreed amount, then all of the work will belong to you. Or you can pay nothing at all, and I will retain ownership of the work. Feel free to let me know either way."

Black and white. Two choices. NO scope creep. NO changes to the task.

This is how to handle a new fixed-price client when he starts to go off the rails.

I personally WILL NOT accept a huge fixed-price milestone with anybody. I ALWAYS break things down.

You say "that's not the work that's involved."

I'm having a hard time imagining what kind of work can't be broken into steps. How can one person do EVERYTHING at one time? Doesn't there need to be a first step?

Can you tell us more about the nature of the project?

petra_r · ‎09-09-2019

Kathy T wrote:
From what I understand, a client can not dispute if 30 days have passed since the release of the last milestone.

deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted (see Tiffany's post below for reasoning)

tlsanders · ‎09-09-2019

Petra R wrote:
Kathy T wrote:
From what I understand, a client can not dispute if 30 days have passed since the release of the last milestone.
If the contract is still open and well it is well beyond the 30 days, the client can just unilaterally fund a $ 5 milestone and immediately the entire (!) contract can be disputed again...

I wish you wouldn't talk about this in public. Probably most shady clients would never think of it.

petra_r · ‎09-10-2019

Tiffany S wrote:
Petra R wrote:
Kathy T wrote:
From what I understand, a client can not dispute if 30 days have passed since the release of the last milestone.
deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted deleted
I wish you wouldn't talk about this in public. Probably most shady clients would never think of it.

Good point. I'll delete it. Delete yours, too.?

feed_my_eyes · ‎09-10-2019

Petra R wrote:
I wish you wouldn't talk about this in public. Probably most shady clients would never think of it.
Good point. I'll delete it. Delete yours, too.?

Obviously I can see why you want to delete this information, but I'm grateful for learning it anyway. Most freelancers probably have some "open but idle" contracts sitting around; this is the first time I've realised that it may be important to close them.

dsmgdesign · ‎09-10-2019

Christine A wrote:
Petra R wrote:
I wish you wouldn't talk about this in public. Probably most shady clients would never think of it.
Good point. I'll delete it. Delete yours, too.?
Obviously I can see why you want to delete this information, but I'm grateful for learning it anyway. Most freelancers probably have some "open but idle" contracts sitting around; this is the first time I've realised that it may be important to close them.

Agreed!

paulb2112 · ‎09-10-2019

I agree with you Christine. I dont believe that comments should be deleted, especially if they are aired because they cause trouble or impede somoene's progress and happiness on the platform. The idea that "clients will see this and get ideas" is just freaking nuts. It shouldn't be about whether the client gets ideas, but what Upwork can do, with our help, to prevent it from happening in the first place. Other than constantly calling Upwork with suggestions, there needs to be a way clients and freelancer like myself can discuss issues, withought being discouraged. Keep airing your grievances, keep thinking about solutions and don't worry about those that are too afraid make suggestions. Keep making them and keep writing. Positive things come from dialogue and converstaion. Always.