🐈
» Forums » Freelancers » Are talent specialists still interfering with...
Page options
sourceprouk
Community Member

Are talent specialists still interfering with the bids?

I did not know for a long time that the 'talent specialists' were interfering with the bids people placed for jobs by dumping them in a section of 'unsuitable candidates' or something like that, until, to my dismay, a client told me that he only found my bid by chance in that bin of 'unsuitable candidates' and that he was very surprised as I was the only candidate that did fit the description of who he wanted.

 

Even when I use a template to place a bid, I always spend time tailor-making my bid to what the client wants and I wonder how many of my bids and connects have been wasted by clueless 'talent specialists'.

 

So, with the new system of more connects per bid, and the fact that I spend a good amount of time writing bids, I wonder if the 'talent specialists' are still interfering with the bids and it is costing me in time and money.

 

Do people know?

64 REPLIES 64
tlsanders
Community Member

I can definitely tell you from the client end that some candidates are relegated to a list (collapsed by default) called "other" and with intro text deeming the proposals irrelevant.

 

I think the only difference is that it's now done by algorithms and not talent specialists.

So I'm spending all this time (and Money--I guess we don't get free connects anymore?) and I'm not getting a fair shake on getting the job? 

This is my point about Upworks accountability in being transparent when it comes to connects especially now that they are charging Freelancers. A client using a filter is fine but to dump paid connects into a reject bucket without even interaction on the clients part is absurd. Freelancers should indeed be outraged that they are not getting a fair shake and being used as a piggy bank for Upwork. 

If I am paying for a connect I should see all of the connects history if thats viewed, deleted, not filled or put into Upworks reject bin. 

Does that mean if I apply for a job that requires a 90% JSS,  my eighty-freaking-seven percent JSS causes it to go in the garbage bucket? 


John D wrote:

Does that mean if I apply for a job that requires a 90% JSS,  my eighty-freaking-seven percent JSS causes it to go in the garbage bucket? 


I don't know for sure because I don't use those defaults when posting a job, but I don't think so (based solely on the fact that I'm often hired on jobs where I don't meet the minimum criteria). I'm hoping that a client who uses those threshold requirements will come in and provide an authoritative answer.


Tiffany S wrote:

I can definitely tell you from the client end that some candidates are relegated to a list (collapsed by default) called "other" and with intro text deeming the proposals irrelevant.

 

I think the only difference is that it's now done by algorithms and not talent specialists.


I think this is the scariest thing I've seen them do yet. Does this mean they're using AI under the hood to determine suitability and categorizing proposals on the client's behalf? I think this is worse than their other strategy of using inexpensive, poorly trained staff to find freelancers for clients (and I'm guessing the talent specialists had little or no previous HR knowledge or experience). Selecting an appropriate freelancer is a lot more nuanced than anything a machine can handle.

How does that relate to this?
(https://www.upwork.com/legal#relationshipwithupwork)

2.1 RELATIONSHIP WITH UPWORK
Upwork merely makes the Site and Site Services available to enable Freelancers and Clients to find and transact directly with each other. Upwork does not introduce Freelancers to Clients, find Projects for Freelancers, or find Freelancers for Clients. Through the Site and Site Services, Freelancers may be notified of Clients that may be seeking the services they offer, and Clients may be notified of Freelancers that may offer the services they seek; at all times, however, Users are responsible for evaluating and determining the suitability of any Project, Client or Freelancer on their own. If Users decide to enter into a Service Contract, the Service Contract is directly between the Users and Upwork is not a party to that Service Contract.


Renata S wrote:

Tiffany S wrote:

I can definitely tell you from the client end that some candidates are relegated to a list (collapsed by default) called "other" and with intro text deeming the proposals irrelevant.

 

I think the only difference is that it's now done by algorithms and not talent specialists.


I think this is the scariest thing I've seen them do yet. Does this mean they're using AI under the hood to determine suitability and categorizing proposals on the client's behalf? I think this is worse than their other strategy of using inexpensive, poorly trained staff to find freelancers for clients (and I'm guessing the talent specialists had little or no previous HR knowledge or experience). Selecting an appropriate freelancer is a lot more nuanced than anything a machine can handle.

How does that relate to this?
(https://www.upwork.com/legal#relationshipwithupwork)

2.1 RELATIONSHIP WITH UPWORK
Upwork merely makes the Site and Site Services available to enable Freelancers and Clients to find and transact directly with each other. Upwork does not introduce Freelancers to Clients, find Projects for Freelancers, or find Freelancers for Clients. Through the Site and Site Services, Freelancers may be notified of Clients that may be seeking the services they offer, and Clients may be notified of Freelancers that may offer the services they seek; at all times, however, Users are responsible for evaluating and determining the suitability of any Project, Client or Freelancer on their own. If Users decide to enter into a Service Contract, the Service Contract is directly between the Users and Upwork is not a party to that Service Contract.


I would LOVE to hear from a lawyer..

dzadza
Community Member


Miriam H wrote:


I would LOVE to hear from a lawyer..


I second that!

Also - do specialized profiles  play any  part in that? Like - if you don't have one, you may end up in the oubliette?

 


Miriam H wrote:


I would LOVE to hear from a lawyer..


#metoo


Renata S wrote:

Tiffany S wrote:

I can definitely tell you from the client end that some candidates are relegated to a list (collapsed by default) called "other" and with intro text deeming the proposals irrelevant.

 

I think the only difference is that it's now done by algorithms and not talent specialists.


I think this is the scariest thing I've seen them do yet. Does this mean they're using AI under the hood to determine suitability and categorizing proposals on the client's behalf? I think this is worse than their other strategy of using inexpensive, poorly trained staff to find freelancers for clients (and I'm guessing the talent specialists had little or no previous HR knowledge or experience). Selecting an appropriate freelancer is a lot more nuanced than anything a machine can handle.

 

While I agree that this isn't a good thing and that it takes a human to select a freelancer, my experience with the actual feature is that the AI is light years more qualified to make these calls than the talent specialists and, to the limited degree I've seen it in action, is MUCH more accurate.

How does that relate to this?
(https://www.upwork.com/legal#relationshipwithupwork)

2.1 RELATIONSHIP WITH UPWORK
Upwork merely makes the Site and Site Services available to enable Freelancers and Clients to find and transact directly with each other. Upwork does not introduce Freelancers to Clients, find Projects for Freelancers, or find Freelancers for Clients. Through the Site and Site Services, Freelancers may be notified of Clients that may be seeking the services they offer, and Clients may be notified of Freelancers that may offer the services they seek; at all times, however, Users are responsible for evaluating and determining the suitability of any Project, Client or Freelancer on their own. If Users decide to enter into a Service Contract, the Service Contract is directly between the Users and Upwork is not a party to that Service Contract.


I don't think this feature really conflicts with this provision, since those proposals are delivered and the ultimate decision lies with the client. However, Upwork does a bunch of things that seem to me to be assuming a larger and more subjective role in the decision-making process. I'm not entirely sure about this, but I seem to recall that Upwork's recommendations were at issue in the LegalForce lawsuit (attorneys are prohibited from paying for referrals, and to avoid that classification, a listing site typically has to remain entirely neutral). 

Based just on what I've read here in the forum, I don't think this is anything new.

 

The default sorting order of proposals is by "relevance". Clients can change the sorting criterion, but I would expect that very few do. Should the default sorting criterion be changed? I guess that depends on how bad Upwork's relevance algorithm is.

 

The other problem (which could be more easily fixed) is the text which apparently suggests that the hidden proposals are not relevant. (What exactly is the text?) It would be better if there was just a button labeled "More", with no other text.


Tiffany S wrote:

I can definitely tell you from the client end that some candidates are relegated to a list (collapsed by default) called "other" and with intro text deeming the proposals irrelevant.

 

I think the only difference is that it's now done by algorithms and not talent specialists.


Jesus, that is even worse!

frederick_steve
Community Member

Just wow. 

kat303
Community Member

Just as I said before. We do Not learn of these things until either a client or freelancer comes on here to ask about it. There will be silence now on this subject (or a canned response) for a few days. If I had the ability to correct just one thing concerning Upwork, it would be to get rid of either the talent specialists or the algorithm that INTERFERES with the ability of ALL freelancers and clients to connect. 

lenaellis
Community Member

Hi Federico,

 

Talent Specialists do not interfere with the proposals that are sent to your client. Proposals are not being archived and there is not a list of "unsuitable candidates". Proposals are displayed in the default order of "best match however clients can change how they are displayed as they see fit. All proposals are visible to the client. There have been no changes to this proposal page and sorting. 

 

-Lena

 

Untitled


Lena E wrote:

 

Talent Specialists do not interfere with the proposals that are sent to your client. Proposals are not being archived and there is not a list of "unsuitable candidates". Proposals are displayed in the default order of "best match however clients can change how they are displayed as they see fit. All proposals are visible to the client. There have been no changes to this proposal page and sorting. 


There is a section with "freelancers who may not be as suitable" or whatever it is called - the name is ultimately not so important, it's a list where Upwork tells the client that Upwork does not consider those freelancers to be such a good match. Those proposals may not be visible to the client unless the client clicks to show them.

 

 


Petra R wrote:


There is a section with "freelancers who may not be as suitable" or whatever it is called - the name is ultimately not so important, it's a list where Upwork tells the client that Upwork does not consider those freelancers to be such a good match. Those proposals may not be visible to the client unless the client clicks to show them.

 


In some ways, this is not a bad idea. I sometimes use a platform that shows who else has anwered a job offer, and it's amazing, people that have no link whatsoever with the job offered wil make a bid. It's even pretty freaky, you really wonder why these people bother to contact the client. However, if this job is done by algorythms, it should be supervised by humans!


Petra R wrote:

Lena E wrote:

 

Talent Specialists do not interfere with the proposals that are sent to your client. Proposals are not being archived and there is not a list of "unsuitable candidates". Proposals are displayed in the default order of "best match however clients can change how they are displayed as they see fit. All proposals are visible to the client. There have been no changes to this proposal page and sorting. 


There is a section with "freelancers who may not be as suitable" or whatever it is called - the name is ultimately not so important, it's a list where Upwork tells the client that Upwork does not consider those freelancers to be such a good match. Those proposals may not be visible to the client unless the client clicks to show them.

 

 


Yes, this is where I would be curious to know whether a legal expert considers the use of this "filter" as somehow shifting Upwork's stance from nuetral, to involved.  Which would be a violation of their TOS.

 

I understand the value of providing clients with the tools to filter proposals, but I guess the issue for me is Upwork's AI creates those filters, not the client. I know applicant tracking systems do something similiar, however I would suspect those filters are based on the job description and parameters set up by the recruiter. If Upwork is NOT a recruiter, than I recommend the client set up the filters.

 

Disclaimer: I don't know much about the client side of Upwork, so perhaps I am wrong about how it works. I also understand it's always been this way, but as FL's are paying, then Upwork should take a less active role (IMHO) be that role computer or human.


Miriam H wrote:

Petra R wrote:

Lena E wrote:

 

Talent Specialists do not interfere with the proposals that are sent to your client. Proposals are not being archived and there is not a list of "unsuitable candidates". Proposals are displayed in the default order of "best match however clients can change how they are displayed as they see fit. All proposals are visible to the client. There have been no changes to this proposal page and sorting. 


There is a section with "freelancers who may not be as suitable" or whatever it is called - the name is ultimately not so important, it's a list where Upwork tells the client that Upwork does not consider those freelancers to be such a good match. Those proposals may not be visible to the client unless the client clicks to show them.

 

 


Yes, this is where I would be curious to know whether a legal expert considers the use of this "filter" as somehow shifting Upwork's stance from nuetral, to involved.  Which would be a violation of their TOS.

 

I understand the value of providing clients with the tools to filter proposals, but I guess the issue for me is Upwork's AI creates those filters, not the client. I know applicant tracking systems do something similiar, however I would suspect those filters are based on the job description and parameters set up by the recruiter. If Upwork is NOT a recruiter, than I recommend the client set up the filters.

 

Disclaimer: I don't know much about the client side of Upwork, so perhaps I am wrong about how it works. I also understand it's always been this way, but as FL's are paying, then Upwork should take a less active role (IMHO) be that role computer or human.


However this is dressed up by upwork, surely if they are "ordering as per "best match"" then how do they decide who is at the top of the list? surely if Upwork are deciding then they are all of a sudden INVOLVED as they are telling the client who the best match for the job is???


Jonathan H wrote:


 surely if Upwork are deciding then they are all of a sudden INVOLVED as they are telling the client who the best match for the job is???


Maybe if it is a bot that does it, then Upwork can claim that 'no member of staff is involved in it'? Smiley Happy


Petra R wrote:


There is a section with "freelancers who may not be as suitable" or whatever it is called 


I never saw that on any of the jobs I posted.

 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless


Lena E wrote:

All proposals are visible to the client. 

 


IF the client is aware or happens to notice that there is an additional collapsed list of candidates at the bottom of the regular list.


Tiffany S wrote:


IF the client is aware or happens to notice that there is an additional collapsed list of candidates at the bottom of the regular list.


If someone doesn't know what to do with this, they need help:

 

Load more.png

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless


Rene K wrote:

Tiffany S wrote:


IF the client is aware or happens to notice that there is an additional collapsed list of candidates at the bottom of the regular list.


If someone doesn't know what to do with this, they need help:

 

Load more.png


If that's what is now shown, there's not much to say about it. Over the years and through various implementations, there have been multiple reports of (and controveries over) text describing a "more" page that imputes less value or a worse fit to the freelancers "below the fold."

 

As far as ToS goes:

  • It's Upwork's ToS. While much of it is meant to protect them from legal liability, they can "violate" it, or change it, at will. What are they going to do if decide they're "violating" it? Kick themselves off their platform?
  • "Through the Site and Site Services, Freelancers may be notified of Clients that may be seeking the services they offer, and Clients may be notified of Freelancers that may offer the services they seek..." Yes, they may. Or they may not. They most often are, in a way meant, in Upwork's judgment, to ensure its survival and its progress toward profitability.
    And that is not the language of a guarantee.

 

I posted this earlier today.  I think this job was from back in November so it is not since connect changes...

 

Capture.PNG

Mark thanks for that screenshot,

I know you mentioned that this was taken before the connect changes.  Can anyone here at upwork clairify if this is still the case?

If so, do you feel that the FL are getting their money's worth from UpWork on the connects used? 

Rene, you and I have gone in circles about this before and I can only guess that for some bizarre reason, you and I are seeing two very different things in our proposal lists. 

 

For me, AFTER all of the "load more" options have been exhausted and you're at the end of the list, there is a smaller link at the bottom that says "Other Proposals". I guess I "need help," but if that's true after 30 successful years in the business, then I can only imagine that many others do, too. I didn't notice it right away (though, "load more" was as obvious as you have repeatedly and condescendingly pointed out). 

 

This isn't about sorting proposals to the bottom of the list. No matter how many times you click "load more," you will NOT SEE THESE PROPOSALS unless you click on the "other" link to expand that section. And, when you do, you will be greeted with an intro telling you the proposals in that section are not relevant.


Tiffany S wrote:

 

This isn't about sorting proposals to the bottom of the list. No matter how many times you click "load more," you will NOT SEE THESE PROPOSALS unless you click on the "other" link to expand that section. And, when you do, you will be greeted with an intro telling you the proposals in that section are not relevant.


Then I stand corrected because I never had enough applicants to see this.

 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless


Rene K wrote:

Tiffany S wrote:

 

This isn't about sorting proposals to the bottom of the list. No matter how many times you click "load more," you will NOT SEE THESE PROPOSALS unless you click on the "other" link to expand that section. And, when you do, you will be greeted with an intro telling you the proposals in that section are not relevant.


Then I stand corrected because I never had enough applicants to see this.

 

 


Maybe you just don't get really crappy ones.

kat303
Community Member

You know, that kind of feels like a person going for a job who may very well have the skills and experience to work at that job, for that company. They think they have at least an equal chance of getting that job. But after they submit their resume, it gets filed (whether by a live person or an algorithm) to the bottom draw of the cleaning crews desk instead of the top draw of the HR director. And the HR director has no idea that there are other resumes with equal skills and experience but are located in some basement desk draw. 

 

Us freelancers pay for membership plans, And we now pay for connects and ALL - let me repeat ALL proposals such be made available to clients and let the clients decide which ones are relevant and which one they want to hire. NO proposal should be filed in some folder that you have to scroll through to the end of the received proposals to be able to click on a tiny "other" link AND have that message about not meeting requirements. 

 

IMO this is the same thing that happened to a freelancer/client awhile back. She had short listed some freelancers and was about to hire one and when she went to look for that proposal Upwork had decided it should be filed away in some out of the way, discreet folder because they (Upwork) decided it didn't meet what the client was looking for. Seems to me nothing was fixed, it was just moved someplace else equally hard to find even for seasoned clients. 


Kathy T wrote:

 

Us freelancers pay for membership plans, And we now pay for connects and ALL - let me repeat ALL proposals such be made available to clients and let the clients decide which ones are relevant and which one they want to hire. NO proposal should be filed in some folder that you have to scroll through to the end of the received proposals to be able to click on a tiny "other" link AND have that message about not meeting requirements. 


I completely agree. I've only seen one project from the client's perspective - just last week - and I was pretty horrified at the way some perfectly good proposals were hidden, while others were highlighted in green and marked "best match", even though they were far from it. The algorithms that are being used are deeply flawed and unfair.

 

 

 


Lena E wrote:

Hi Federico,

 

Talent Specialists do not interfere with the proposals that are sent to your client. Proposals are not being archived and there is not a list of "unsuitable candidates". Proposals are displayed in the default order of "best match however clients can change how they are displayed as they see fit. All proposals are visible to the client. There have been no changes to this proposal page and sorting. 

 

-Lena

 


Frem Petra:
"There is a section with "freelancers who may not be as suitable" or whatever it is called - the name is ultimately not so important, it's a list where Upwork tells the client that Upwork does not consider those freelancers to be such a good match. Those proposals may not be visible to the client unless the client clicks to show them."

What Petra says is clearly NOT what you repled to me.

Also, you do not elaborate on the use of a BOT to sort the bids.

Federico, Tiffany and Mark,

 

Thanks for flagging with a screenshot of the link. I apologize for the misinformation shared.  Yes, this link at the bottom of the proposal page does link to other proposals when there are proposals that are not relevant to the job post. I can see why this is concerning to many of you. Having been a topic brought up previously, and due to your shared concerns about this after the paid Connects change, we did test out the removal of this link last month. However, the results showed that clients with this filtered proposal list found freelancers and filled their jobs at higher rate than those without the filter. That being said, we are still evaluating and exploring options to make this a better experience for both freelancers and clients.

 

-Lena

Untitled


Lena E wrote:

Federico, Tiffany and Mark,

 

Thanks for flagging with a screenshot of the link. I apologize for the misinformation shared.  Yes, this link at the bottom of the proposal page does link to other proposals when there are proposals that are not relevant to the job post. I can see why this is concerning to many of you. Having been a topic brought up previously, and due to your shared concerns about this after the paid Connects change, we did test out the removal of this link last month. However, the results showed that clients with this filtered proposal list found freelancers and filled their jobs at higher rate than those without the filter. That being said, we are still evaluating and exploring options to make this a better experience for both freelancers and clients.

 

-Lena


Lena,

 

Can you tell us who or what is determining relevance? Because if it's a talent specialist or a bot, heaven help us all. And considering the fact that many clients do not know nor have the time to write RFPs that make sense, relevance may be a subjective thing. In the (many) cases where clients are not sure of what they want, Upwork making that decision for them is a bit concerning.


Lena E wrote:

Hi Federico,

 

Talent Specialists do not interfere with the proposals that are sent to your client. Proposals are not being archived and there is not a list of "unsuitable candidates". Proposals are displayed in the default order of "best match however clients can change how they are displayed as they see fit. All proposals are visible to the client. There have been no changes to this proposal page and sorting. 

 

-Lena

 


This is clearly not the case as has been shown with photos of the client side and multiple conformations from people that use the client side.

If i am paying for connects and i decide to bid on a job that has a requirement i do not meet (jss score/hours worked etc.) - and for the recond, i DO apply for such jobs. then my application should be shown to the client the same as everyone elses.....

 

your system tells me that the client will be informed i do not meet the criteria, its doesnt tell me that my proposal will be hidden away in a seperate section from the rest of the proposals???

Screenshot 2019-09-17 at 12.19.28.png

 

This is VERY misleading and suggests that the proposal will show this requirement is not met, it doesnt suggest the whole proposal will be hidden away.


Jonathan H wrote:

This is clearly not the case as has been shown with photos of the client side and multiple conformations from people that use the client side.

If i am paying for connects and i decide to bid on a job that has a requirement i do not meet (jss score/hours worked etc.) - and for the recond, i DO apply for such jobs. then my application should be shown to the client the same as everyone elses.....

 

your system tells me that the client will be informed i do not meet the criteria, its doesnt tell me that my proposal will be hidden away in a seperate section from the rest of the proposals???

Screenshot 2019-09-17 at 12.19.28.png

 

This is VERY misleading and suggests that the proposal will show this requirement is not met, it doesnt suggest the whole proposal will be hidden away.


Ah, but that's not the way that it worked at all, from what I saw. Like I said, there were some freelancers who were marked as a "best match" even though they clearly did NOT meet the criteria that I specified, whereas other, better freelancers were hidden. For example, I wanted to filter out anyone who hadn't done at least one hour of work, but the number one "best match" on the list was a brand-new freelancer - so my filter didn't work at all. I wonder if the order that freelancers are listed in is subject to the same kind of random "rotation" as the search results, to give newbies a chance. 

 

Another problem that I should mention was that two freelancers were incorrectly showing as having zero earnings, even though they did have earnings once I clicked through to their main profiles.

 

I'm frankly surprised that more freelancers aren't concerned about this.

 

I was concerned, which is why I ditched my specialized profiles. Supposedly that was fixed, but I noticed that its still broken on other profiles.


Ah, but that's not the way that it worked at all, from what I saw. Like I said, there were some freelancers who were marked as a "best match" even though they clearly did NOT meet the criteria that I specified, whereas other, better freelancers were hidden. For example, I wanted to filter out anyone who hadn't done at least one hour of work, but the number one "best match" on the list was a brand-new freelancer - so my filter didn't work at all. I wonder if the order that freelancers are listed in is subject to the same kind of random "rotation" as the search results, to give newbies a chance. 

 




well thats reassuring to know - slightly!

 

Still think the whole process seems a bit wrong. From a freelancer perspective not knowing if proposals are in vein as they are booted to the folder of doom, or even as a client - i would want to see all applications and make my own judgement, thats why i placed an advert.

Hi Christine,


Could you please send me the details of the freelancers who were showing with 0 earnings so that I can investigate it further? Thank you.

~ Goran
Upwork
Latest Articles
Featured Topics
Learning Paths