Are talent specialists still interfering with... - Page 2

sourceprouk · ‎09-10-2019

I did not know for a long time that the 'talent specialists' were interfering with the bids people placed for jobs by dumping them in a section of 'unsuitable candidates' or something like that, until, to my dismay, a client told me that he only found my bid by chance in that bin of 'unsuitable candidates' and that he was very surprised as I was the only candidate that did fit the description of who he wanted.

Even when I use a template to place a bid, I always spend time tailor-making my bid to what the client wants and I wonder how many of my bids and connects have been wasted by clueless 'talent specialists'.

So, with the new system of more connects per bid, and the fact that I spend a good amount of time writing bids, I wonder if the 'talent specialists' are still interfering with the bids and it is costing me in time and money.

Do people know?

versailles · ‎09-17-2019

Goran V wrote:
Hi Christine,

Could you please send me the details of the freelancers who were showing with 0 earnings so that I can investigate it further? Thank you.

I just did.

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light" —William Ashbless

feed_my_eyes · ‎09-17-2019

Rene K wrote:
Goran V wrote:
Hi Christine,

Could you please send me the details of the freelancers who were showing with 0 earnings so that I can investigate it further? Thank you.
I just did.

🙂 But I deleted some people when I was shortlisting candidates, so I'm not sure if there's a way to retrieve them.

sourceprouk · ‎09-17-2019

Christine A wrote:

I'm frankly surprised that more freelancers aren't concerned about this.

This is simply because they do not see it. Most freelancers are not clients too. It took me years to realise this was happening.

m_terrazas · ‎09-18-2019

Christine A wrote:
Jonathan H wrote:
This is clearly not the case as has been shown with photos of the client side and multiple conformations from people that use the client side.

If i am paying for connects and i decide to bid on a job that has a requirement i do not meet (jss score/hours worked etc.) - and for the recond, i DO apply for such jobs. then my application should be shown to the client the same as everyone elses.....

your system tells me that the client will be informed i do not meet the criteria, its doesnt tell me that my proposal will be hidden away in a seperate section from the rest of the proposals???

This is VERY misleading and suggests that the proposal will show this requirement is not met, it doesnt suggest the whole proposal will be hidden away.
Ah, but that's not the way that it worked at all, from what I saw. Like I said, there were some freelancers who were marked as a "best match" even though they clearly did NOT meet the criteria that I specified, whereas other, better freelancers were hidden. For example, I wanted to filter out anyone who hadn't done at least one hour of work, but the number one "best match" on the list was a brand-new freelancer - so my filter didn't work at all. I wonder if the order that freelancers are listed in is subject to the same kind of random "rotation" as the search results, to give newbies a chance.

Another problem that I should mention was that two freelancers were incorrectly showing as having zero earnings, even though they did have earnings once I clicked through to their main profiles.

I'm frankly surprised that more freelancers aren't concerned about this.

Christine, I have also seen this.
I mentioned it in another thread (I don't remember which one), but no MOD said anything.

Edited: Opps! I see that Goran has answered. If I find any, I will send it to him.

kat303 · ‎09-20-2019

Christine wrote

I'm frankly surprised that more freelancers aren't concerned about this.

We ARE concerned, but what can we do? This is the same thing that happened months ago. And we though it was solved. Obviously it isn't.

Perhaps we should go back to what we were doing before, When a freelancer posts that they aren't getting jobs, lets educate them on why. Not because of their profile, or anything else, but because their proposal has been filed away in some out of the way folder located at the very bottom of the regular list of proposals.

Now that we are paying for connects, then EVERY freelancer should have their proposal listed and not located somewhere where the client has no idea existed. We are not here to throw money away however small that amount may be.

tlsanders · ‎09-17-2019

Lena E wrote:
Hi Federico,

Proposals are not being archived and there is not a list of "unsuitable candidates".
-Lena

Lena, could you please explain the screen shot Mark posted, which is identical to what I have seen in the past? How is a list of candidates, Labeled "other" and collapsed by default with header text that says they are NOT RELEVANT not a list of unsuitable candidates/

chris_p_morris · ‎09-17-2019

Aside from the previous discussion in this thread, all of which is valid, wasn't the whole point of paid connects to reduce the number of applications so that they could be managed more easily by clients? Wasn't that the primary, or possibly only, justification given for this?

So how is it necessary to hide applications, or file applicants away as being unsuitable, when there are only a handful applying for a job?

Between trying to manage a JSS score over which you have no control, and which many clients using Upwork don't understand...

Trying to balance the amount of connects you get per month, which isn't that many...

Trying to work out which clients will actually hire someone, which is a virtual crap shoot (although you hardly ever get your connects back if they don't)...

And trying to ensure that you're not filed in the irrelevant bin, which effectively involves attempting to outwit algorithms, although it's impossible to know whether or not you have been deemed unsuitable, and almost impossible to know why...

This isn't exactly the easiest platform to use.

I've been on Elance and Upwork for 7-8 years, I was one of the top freelancers in my field on Elance, I've always been top rated on here (although the relevance of being highly rated in your field has been watered down to virtual irrelevance), I have close to 4,000 hours and 450 jobs, with earnings of around $300,000...so I think I can say with some credibility that it's never been harder to attract clients, it's never been harder to apply for jobs, and it's never been harder to accurately and adequately convey who you are and what experience you have in your field.

I mentioned this previously when paid connects were announced...launching a freelancing career on here now is borderline impossible. Unless you have money to burn, which would beg the question of why you were trying in the first place. That's quite sad, because I was in that position at one time, and the vast majority of my opportunities came from Elance and then Upwork.

I know someone who's studying for a PhD who is in desperate need of extra cash, and I know that she has a lot of qualities to potentially bring to the table as a freelancer. But it's getting harder for me to recommend that she uses Upwork, considering she might have to pay money that she doesn't have, to apply to clients that don't hire people, and all the time her applications are being trashed without her even knowing. Would you recommend this experience?

feed_my_eyes · ‎09-17-2019

Christopher M wrote:
Aside from the previous discussion in this thread, all of which is valid, wasn't the whole point of paid connects to reduce the number of applications so that they could be managed more easily by clients? Wasn't that the primary, or possibly only, justification given for this?

So how is it necessary to hide applications, or file applicants away as being unsuitable, when there are only a handful applying for a job?

Because there ISN'T just a handful. In my category, there are definitely fewer people applying for cheap, crappy sounding jobs, but there are just as many - if not more - competitors for the good jobs.

feed_my_eyes · ‎09-17-2019

Christopher M wrote:

I know someone who's studying for a PhD who is in desperate need of extra cash, and I know that she has a lot of qualities to potentially bring to the table as a freelancer. But it's getting harder for me to recommend that she uses Upwork, considering she might have to pay money that she doesn't have, to apply to clients that don't hire people, and all the time her applications are being trashed without her even knowing. Would you recommend this experience?

To answer the second part of your question - I've seen some talented newbies who seem to be able to get clients right away, so it depends on what your friend does. But if she just wants to apply for random part-time jobs to make some extra cash until she graduates, I would think that there are easier ways to go about it. It takes a lot of effort to figure out how to run a business, and IMO it's not worth investing the time unless you really want to freelance as a career.

hoyle_editing · ‎09-17-2019

Well, I decided to write an email (for all the good it would do me ) to support to basicallly ask for a refund of connects for any of my proposals that have been put into this folder by upwork....

they requested i link to this thread, which i did.....

and then they proceded to insist that this folder (you know, the one that PICTURED) does NOT EXIST!

He also informed me that i can be assured that none of my proposals have ended up in this non-existant folder!!!

so, as you can imagine i can rest easy knowing that Upwork have assured me my proposals are being seen and not ending up in the imaginary folder that we all imagined we saw a picture of in this very thread!!!

THANKS UPWORK

chris_p_morris · ‎09-17-2019

Christine A wrote:
To answer the second part of your question - I've seen some talented newbies who seem to be able to get clients right away, so it depends on what your friend does.

It's not impossible to get some jobs as a newbie. I accept this. But I would have a hard time recommending her to apply for jobs on Upwork considering:

She has no experience or history on the platform, and will be up against numerous clients who have both.
She will have to pay to apply for jobs.
If she starts off doing low-value jobs, which aren't even necessarily easy to get, there's no guarantee she will even make any money out of it, considering the fees involved.
No-one can ever tell whether or not a client will hire someone, and if they don't then she won't get her money back.
Her applications now could be filed as unsuitable, based on algorithmic criteria that are not known, and impossible to predict.
If this happens, she won't even know.
All that she can do if she isn't selected for jobs is to keep paying, keep applying, and pray.

Considering that money is already tight for her, and freelancing would be a way of using her not inconsiderable skills to supplement her income, it's not really feasible for her to take this risk. Maybe she could get lucky and it would pay off, but there is no guarantee of this, and, equally, there is now no guarantee that any of her applications will even be read. She could essentially be paying her own small amount of disposable income, in order to do nothing more than send data from one computer to another.

If I was to recommend this platform to her now, then I would have to honestly explain to her what is involved, so that she could make an informed decision. If I was honest about it, I would be surprised if she would attempt it, which is a great shame as I know she would love to do some freelancing work. Whereas a few years ago, in the earlier days of Upwork, and certainly when Elance was active, I could have recommended her to try freelancing on those platforms without hesitation. Just as I tried it, and built up my business, portfolio and reputation.

But, today, it's hard enough for me with eight years of experience, hundreds of completed jobs, a quite obvious Upwork presence, and tonnes of experience of dealing with the platform to cope with the way that Upwork currently works. What's it going to be like for her, and what are the odds that she's going to do anything other than waste her own much-needed money?

sourceprouk · ‎09-17-2019

I would accept it if the bids were put in order of suitabilty if done properly (it would probably favour me) but:
1- There is no chance in hell that a bot can do it

2- Of a human doing it, it would have to be a person who works in the same field and is very experienced in it. There is no chance that these clueless 'talent specialists' could do it. For instance, if it was a site where only free-lance writing is done and it is run by writers or ex-writers. I recently approached a specialised site that sells services in the field where I was looking for help and I got an answer, to my bid, from one of the people running the site telling me if they really had people who could help.

As it is in Upwork, I am losing money on connects and time writing bids that the client may be told are not by a suitable provider.

tomzilla1 · ‎09-17-2019

Doesn't surprise me. I've never had one good offer from those specialists.

sourceprouk · ‎09-18-2019

Tom Z wrote:
Doesn't surprise me. I've never had one good offer from those specialists.

I am a product designer and have had invitations to bid, from these 'specialists' on jobs like 'New soap formulation' 'I need someone to feed my pet' (this is a joke) and the like.

On the other hand, they interfere when I apply for jobs designing manufactured products, which I have done more than a hundred times before.

hoyle_editing · ‎09-18-2019

Well, i have now had official conformation that the folder is being removed -

**Edited for community guidelines**

Hopefully this will be the end of the folder and the client will be able to choose who they wish to deem appropriate for the job or not!

kbadeau · ‎09-18-2019

I got an invitation today from a talent specialist. This was the entirety of the job description:

Poster Design, Packaging designing, Motion posters

Forget that I don't know what "motion posters" are. How could a talent specialist see this job desription and send it out as is? And surprise, the job's been up for three days and has fewer than 5 proposals.

hoyle_editing · ‎09-23-2019

Jonathan H wrote:
Well, i have now had official conformation that the folder is being removed -

**Edited for community guidelines**

Hopefully this will be the end of the folder and the client will be able to choose who they wish to deem appropriate for the job or not!

I take this back - i have been contacted by a higher level of support who have basically said they tried removing it but its better for clients if it remains, so its not going anywhere!

(looks like CS just tell you what you want to hear at first level!!)

They did ask for any suggestions and the only one i could come up with was - any freelancer that is dumped in the 'unsuitable bin' should be contacted and informed and offered the chance to retract the proposal and be refunded - (that or inform them as they are submitting, that the proposal will not have the same chance of being viewed by the client)

petra_r · ‎09-23-2019

Jonathan H wrote:
(looks like CS just tell you what you want to hear at first level!!)

Support are there to help you do things you can't do on your own.

When it comes to clarifying questions and commenting on Upwork policy, the forum is your better bet.

Jonathan H wrote:
They did ask for any suggestions and the only one i could come up with was - any freelancer that is dumped in the 'unsuitable bin' should be contacted and informed and offered the chance to retract the proposal and be refunded - (that or inform them as they are submitting, that the proposal will not have the same chance of being viewed by the client)

God no. That will never happen.

hoyle_editing · ‎09-23-2019

Petra R wrote:
God no. That will never happen.

I never thought for a second it would, but the only 'fair' solution i could think of whilst writing my reply. I dont 'expect' they will change anything really.

feed_my_eyes · ‎09-24-2019

Jonathan H wrote:
I take this back - i have been contacted by a higher level of support who have basically said they tried removing it but its better for clients if it remains, so its not going anywhere!

(looks like CS just tell you what you want to hear at first level!!)

They did ask for any suggestions and the only one i could come up with was - any freelancer that is dumped in the 'unsuitable bin' should be contacted and informed and offered the chance to retract the proposal and be refunded - (that or inform them as they are submitting, that the proposal will not have the same chance of being viewed by the client)

So the Dumpster of Doom(TM) will remain after all. Well, you gave it your best shot, Jonathan - thanks anyway!

gilbert-phyllis · ‎09-24-2019

Y'all know what we need? A place on the platform where we can take out paid ads that clients will see, that we can use to post PSAs, e.g.:

- Before you hire (or give up), be sure to check the Dumpster of Destiny! Your best candidates may be there! [Note to Christine: I renamed it so as not to frighten the clients.]

- If you respond to a proposal and the FL doesn't reply within 24 hours and you really liked their bid, try to find them directly. UW Messages get lost and delayed, and they might be trying to contact you.

- If your job post isn't attracting qualified attention, check to ensure it offers the following: what you need, with enough detail that a pro can estimate how long it will take and how complex it will be; when you need it; how much you anticipate investing.

I would contribute to a fund to run public service announcements like these, if placed where clients couldn't miss seeing them.

m_terrazas · ‎09-24-2019

Phyllis G wrote:
Y'all know what we need? A place on the platform where we can take out paid ads that clients will see, that we can use to post PSAs, e.g.:

- Before you hire (or give up), be sure to check the Dumpster of Destiny! Your best candidates may be there! [Note to Christine: I renamed it so as not to frighten the clients.]

- If you respond to a proposal and the FL doesn't reply within 24 hours and you really liked their bid, try to find them directly. UW Messages get lost and delayed, and they might be trying to contact you.

- If your job post isn't attracting qualified attention, check to ensure it offers the following: what you need, with enough detail that a pro can estimate how long it will take and how complex it will be; when you need it; how much you anticipate investing.

I would contribute to a fund to run public service announcements like these, if placed where clients couldn't miss seeing them.

It seems like a good idea, but I think that instead of paying for them, Upwork should pay whoever has a good idea for the ads.
After all, it would help them do their job, right?

tlsanders · ‎09-24-2019

I wouldn't take that too seriously, considering that another poster in this thread got official confirmation earlier that it never existed, and Lena said the issue was still under evaluation just a few hours before your post (and offered a reason Upwork would tend toward keeping it)

hoyle_editing · ‎09-24-2019

Yes support told me it didnt exist, then i questioned it and they insisted, so i pointed them to the screenshot of it and they said they were going to remove it!!! - Thats when next tier support emailed me and said the complete opposite!!

feed_my_eyes · ‎09-24-2019

Tiffany S wrote:
I wouldn't take that too seriously, considering that another poster in this thread got official confirmation earlier that it never existed, and Lena said the issue was still under evaluation just a few hours before your post (and offered a reason Upwork would tend toward keeping it)

Yes, Lena's explanation made sense and I've no doubt that most clients would like to have fewer bids to sift through, and/or only see bids from the best matches. I just don't think that Upwork's algorithms are up to the task, resulting in an unfair disadvantage for some qualified freelancers.

Are talent specialists still interfering with the bids?