Bad client who then gave bad feedback

[carringtongill54]

So I posted about a client asking for a written strategy pre-contract a couple of weeks ago. I got some good advice on here and the client was asked to and did set up a contract with 2 milestones. It's not a huge contract. I rewrote his report in the format he wanted used - took me about 7 hours. There were lots of iterations, a lot of to-and fro-ing, loads of contact. I then applied for the first milestone $95 (1st draft). He immediately changed the milestone. Privately he told me he wanted "more prose". I said - ok but this is the first draft. Really I wanted to see if I would be paid (I had alarm bells going off). Then he started chatting about "trying to help him understand the deliverables". I answered "where is this contract going?". I was really fed-up and I don't have time for clients who don't want to pay. TL:DR, he put less than half the agreed sum in escrow and ended the contract. Also gave me a bad review crashing my jss. I also gave him a bad review saying he wanted people to work for free. Anyway, first can I get my regular clients to up my jss by asking them to give great reviews. Second, why are people like this client allowed to get away with refusing to pay by changing the milestones? Third, what are my lessons learned here? Thanks all.

[petra_r]

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Gillian C wrote:

So I posted about a client asking for a written strategy pre-contract a couple of weeks ago. I got some good advice on here and the client was asked to and did set up a contract with 2 milestones. It's not a huge contract. I rewrote his report in the format he wanted used - took me about 7 hours. There were lots of iterations, a lot of to-and fro-ing, loads of contact. I then applied for the first milestone $95 (1st draft). He immediately changed the milestone.

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Clients can not change funded milestones. They can ask for changes to the work if something was not done according to the requirements.

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Gillian C wrote:

 Anyway, first can I get my regular clients to up my jss by asking them to give great reviews. 

You have 10 contracts in progress. Get some of those closed and your JSS will improve (assuming good feedback)

It's not the done thing to "ask for great feedback" - but you can ask for the contract being closed and being rehired if needed.

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Gillian C wrote:

Third, what are my lessons learned here? Thanks all.

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Choose clients very carefully. If they're shifty before they hire you, they'll be a pain to work with.

Nail down deliverables VERY clearly.

[carringtongill54]

Thanks. How do I get rid of the contracts that are finished?

[lysis10]

A milestone for just revisions is always a mistake.

[carringtongill54]

Too vague? 

[lysis10]

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Gillian C wrote:

Too vague? 

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Sorry, the more words I write, the better chance I have of my post just getting removed. A second milestone for revisions leaves you nothing as leverage if A) contract goes to dispute (you only have half to work with) or B) client pays you half and just decides to bail.

Never do half escrow for a draft (this is something lots of clients attempt to do) and never do a milestone specifically for revisions.

[carringtongill54]

Ok, that is really helpful thanks. A lot of my work is sending drafts back and forth. How, ideally, should you structure the milestones then? Or don't do milestones, is that the lesson?

[lysis10]

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Gillian C wrote:

Ok, that is really helpful thanks. A lot of my work is sending drafts back and forth. How, ideally, should you structure the milestones then? Or don't do milestones, is that the lesson?

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I tell them they have to just fully escrow. They can release when the revisions are done. I guess technically you could ask for 50% of the escrow to be released but if the client clicks the revision button on the escrow, it stops the clock from auto releasing. I guess at that point you could ask the client to release 50% upon receiving the draft, but I can tell you that it's likely they will dispute regardless of giving them a draft with an agreed amount. IMO, clients go into escrow jobs with the idea that they can easily get a refund, which is also why they try to escrow half. At least with full escrow you have the full amount to work with.

BUT, I'm not a lawyer but this is my thinking on agreeing to a 50% draft fee. If I say to the client that I charge 50% for a draft, the client doesn't like it and doesn't ask for revisions and it goes to arbitration, I wonder if you would only be elligible for 50% of the total escrow because you told the client 50% of the escrow is for the draft. If they don't ask for revisions, then it would seem to me that they would only be liable for the 50% not the full amount.

All of these things and more are why I hate escrow jobs. So much to consider compared to straight hourly jobs.

[carringtongill54]

I wasn't criticizing you btw! I meant, is a milestone for a first draft too vague.

[feed_my_eyes]

1. You can ask your clients to end the contracts, but you cannot specifically ask for a good feedback review. Feedback manipulation is against the TOS (clients are supposed to leave their honest opinions), and if I were a client, I'd be inclined to deduct a point if a freelancer tried to guilt me into giving them a good score.

2. Why are clients allowed to get away with it? Well, they can't get away with it if you stand your ground. On longer contracts, I set up milestones so that I get about 80% of the pay when I submit the first draft. It doesn't matter if the client then needs revisions; I've submitted the first draft, therefore the payment is due. If they want revisions, they need to fund the second milestone, and we don't move to the second milestone until the first milestone is paid. End of story. If they still insist on revisions without paying, then that's when you go to a dispute. You never work for free.

3. I'm not sure about lessons learned, because I haven't heard the full story, but it sounds to me like you weren't on the same page from the get-go. A client shouldn't be asking for help understanding the deliverables after you've already done 7 hours of work. I try to sound out clients before I accept a job; I always do a bit of back-and-forth messaging to see whether communication is clear and whether it seems like we'd work well together. If they're all over the place or seem indecisive or if I just don't understand what the hell they're talking about, then I turn down the job. (It can even be over the smallest thing - like I'm just getting a bad feeling or they seem "off" in some way.)

But it's strange that your JSS has crashed so badly from a $40 job (condolences for that - sincerely). Have you fully refunded any contracts in the past?

[carringtongill54]

1. You can ask your clients to end the contracts, but you cannot specifically ask for a good feedback review. Feedback manipulation is against the TOS (clients are supposed to leave their honest opinions), and if I were a client, I'd be inclined to deduct a point if a freelancer tried to guilt me into giving them a good score. I just mean I have a lot of regular clients who are pretty happy (they are regulars) and don't leave feedback because neither of us can be bothered.

2. Why are clients allowed to get away with it? Well, they can't get away with it if you stand your ground. On longer contracts, I set up milestones so that I get about 80% of the pay when I submit the first draft. It doesn't matter if the client then needs revisions; I've submitted the first draft, therefore the payment is due. If they want revisions, they need to fund the second milestone, and we don't move to the second milestone until the first milestone is paid. End of story. If they still insist on revisions without paying, then that's when you go to a dispute. You never work for free. Helpful, thanks!

3. A client shouldn't be asking for help understanding the deliverables after you've already done 7 hours of work. He was trying not to pay! It can even be over the smallest thing - like I'm just getting a bad feeling or they seem "off" in some way. I had alarm bells, as I said, from the off.

4. But it's strange that your JSS has crashed so badly from a $40 job (condolences for that - sincerely). Have you fully refunded any contracts in the past? Yes, I am not happy about this at all. Nope, never.

[petra_r]

When did that contract end?

[carringtongill54]

With the bad client? Today.

[petra_r]

With the bad client? Today.

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Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that contract is not even included in your JSS yet and won't be until Sunday.

... and don't leave feedback because neither of us can be bothered.

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You want to start being bothered. 

You have 10 open contracts, Open active contracts are great, Open idle contracts are wasted opportunities to get feedback and help prop up your JSS, which will see another dive on Sunday when today's debacle will become calculated into it.

[carringtongill54]

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that contract is not even included in your JSS yet and won't be until Sunday AAargh! What's going on?

[petra_r · Accepted solution]

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Gillian C wrote:

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that contract is not even included in your JSS yet and won't be until Sunday AAargh! What's going on?

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Either one of your closed contracts before this one left poor private feedback, or you have one or more of the following:

A contract that ended with nothing (ever) paid

A contract that has been open for 2+ months with nothing ever paid.

[carringtongill54]

A contract that has been open for 2+ months with nothing ever paid. I have a good few of these because I get hired on an hourly rate. do some work and then it is dependent on the client saying "OK, let's go again". And I see about 3 legacy contracts in my profile which aren't really active any more but the client put them on a weekly hourly rate. It's possible I have -ve private feedback but most of my clients are regulars.

Btw thanks, you have been great!

[petra_r]

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Gillian C wrote:

A contract that has been open for 2+ months with nothing ever paid. I have a good few of these because I get hired on an hourly rate. do some work and then it is dependent on the client saying "OK, let's go again"!

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How can you have hourly contracts with nothing EVER paid? Hourly contracts you are paid automatically if you log your hours. I underlined and bolded ever  for a reason. That means nothing paid under that contract at any time in the past ever.  Active hourly contracts are not an issue. 

My (wild) guess would be that the legal translation did it.

But I'd suggest that you get some of those 10 contracts closed with feedback, that will soften the blow from that terrible contract and in June the private feedback from the legal translation will fall out of the 6 month window.

[carringtongill54]

Sorry, not ever, but not at least for  3 months. Which legal translation? I normally get **** when I do that?. Although I have been thinking about deleting my profile for that as it can be a PITA.

[petra_r]

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Gillian C wrote:

Sorry, not ever, but not at least for  3 months. Which legal translation?

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The one from December with the 5 stars and no words. The others all have really glowing feedback so they clearly haven't left poor private feedback

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Gillian C wrote:

it can be a PITA.

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Oh yes!!

[carringtongill54]

Be surprised if it were that one - his last words were "It's perfect". But you never know. I also don't usually bother giving feedback or asking clients to do so. Is that a problem?

[petra_r]

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Gillian C wrote:

Be surprised if it were that one - his last words were "It's perfect". But you never know. I also don't usually bother giving feedback or asking clients to do so. Is that a problem?

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Not really, but generally clients who are really happy leave a few words the first time they work with a freelancer at least.

If you don't have any "dead" contracts (with nothing ever (remember the definition of "ever") paid) then someone left poor feedback.

You also really don't want to have 10 idle contracts with only 4 closed ones. Get busy writing to all clients you haven't worked with for over 3 months and ask them (nicely) to close the contracts if they don't have anything for you right now. You can say that too many open contracts make you look too busy for other clients and that they can rehire you with a couple of clicks of the mouse next time they need any help.

At the moment it's all about damage control.