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homeboyworks
Community Member

CLOSED. Upwork is fine

Thanks to every community Guru who replied. The issue is closed! Good job.

ACCEPTED SOLUTION

to Petra.

I'll do better in future. Lesson was learned.

View solution in original post

26 REPLIES 26
tinker_bell3
Moderator
Moderator

Hi Alexander,

 

Thanks for sharing your feedback. I'll be sure to share this with the rest of the team. I also checked that you have submitted a ticket to our team. One of our agents will update your ticket and assist you further. 

~ Joanne
Upwork

Just reveived the standard message explaining the JSS score and nothing about my request. It was looking like they want me to wait 24 monthes to start work on Upwork again.

**Edited for Community Guidelines**
What is Upwork, protector of sallary of one week?
- Itโ€™s better to loose $1000-$1200 than ability to get expert job next year
What is Upwork, provider of great jobs and professional workers?
- Any jobs with any kind of crazy clients without any arbitrage for not-fixed price contract. Nobody of professionals loves this.

 

 

The part of text was censored lol!

 

Really, Upwork is just a timer? Silly me. I asked and expected too much. ๐Ÿ˜…

 

I am new freelancer here and done a few small projects. I also want to work on big / long term projects once my profile is attractive enough. The issue you have mentioned is serious and needs to be resolved by Upwork. 

tlbp
Community Member


Ankit M wrote:

I am new freelancer here and done a few small projects. I also want to work on big / long term projects once my profile is attractive enough. The issue you have mentioned is serious and needs to be resolved by Upwork. 


Long-term contracts are counted as a positive when calculating JSS. In my experience, maintaining long term relationships with clients not only improves your earnings but also your JSS. Of course, if you fail to please your client and they enter a bad review once the contract is finished, that will harm your JSS. But, Top Rated freelancers are permitted to remove 1 contract from their JSS calculation for every 10 contracts they complete (although they cannot use this perk more than once every 3 months regardless of how many contracts they complete.) 

 

 

tlbp
Community Member


Alexander G wrote:

There are 2 types of jobs in general. Let's say:

  1. Make something quick from a few hours to a several days (small tasks an fixed-price contracts)
  2. Time-based contracts from a few weeks to a few years

There are 2 types of clients on Upwork:

  1. Professionals that able understand and measure the quality of job and be appreciate to freelancer and work in harmony as a team
  2. Amateur clients who don't have a clue how the work should be done so what they can do is to make pressure on freelancer as a silly guarantee that they can get the best possible result in a shorter time

So how Upwork looses the professional long-term contractors:

  1. Unfair JSS. You can easily be a top-rated freelancer if you work in small jobs. The impact of bad hidden or public feedback is 100 times more dramatic for long-term contractors. If a client was working with a freelancer for more than a month this means the client was happy all this time. The time of the contract should decrease the impact of negative feedback from a client.
  2. Upwork is not grateful enough for long-term contractors giving $300 fees to Upwork per month. After some time or even at the first interview, almost every long-term client makes a proposal to a freelancer to make a contract outside Upwork to save on fees. If Upwork can't protect the reputation of freelancers from crazy unprofessional clients it is better to always accept such offers to don't lose 100% JSS. I've been Top Rated and Top Rated Plus for many years. After hidden feedback from one of my clients, my JSS keeps 88% for more than 6 months!!! Unfortunately, the client turned out as an unresponsible liar and the messages can prove that. After I reported to Upwork they just ignored me. How big chance that I'll be loyal to Upwork when the next client asks me to make a contract outside and avoid paying $300-400 to Upwork monthly. Try to guess. Before I was ALWAYS saying "NO", but after such a situation, I have serious reasons to work outside.
  3. Upwork has qualification tests for freelancers but clients. They kind of take care about better service and don't care about how many **it can come from client-side to freelancer. Need to provide some courses or webinars and assessment tests for clients too. For example, one guy seriously wanted to hire a freelancer to work 60-80 hours/week. That's insane because he could get better and cheaper results if he would hire two people for the same price but only 30-40 hours per week each.
  4. Upwork has ratings for freelancers, for clients, but not for itself. I would give 2 of 5 stars to Upwork for the job they made for me this year. Why it's a job? Because I paid them from every contract! And as one of the top-rated freelancers, they've collected a lot of money from me by the latest 4 years.

Truly something dangerous for an Upwork business model. Because If somebody will make any similar platform I'll go there immediately! And I believe there are many people thinking the same way.


TL;DR "My rating dropped below 90% and I need to blame someone other than myself." 

moonraker
Community Member


Tonya P wrote:

Alexander G wrote:

There are 2 types of jobs in general. Let's say:

  1. Make something quick from a few hours to a several days (small tasks an fixed-price contracts)
  2. Time-based contracts from a few weeks to a few years

There are 2 types of clients on Upwork:

  1. Professionals that able understand and measure the quality of job and be appreciate to freelancer and work in harmony as a team
  2. Amateur clients who don't have a clue how the work should be done so what they can do is to make pressure on freelancer as a silly guarantee that they can get the best possible result in a shorter time

So how Upwork looses the professional long-term contractors:

  1. Unfair JSS. You can easily be a top-rated freelancer if you work in small jobs. The impact of bad hidden or public feedback is 100 times more dramatic for long-term contractors. If a client was working with a freelancer for more than a month this means the client was happy all this time. The time of the contract should decrease the impact of negative feedback from a client.
  2. Upwork is not grateful enough for long-term contractors giving $300 fees to Upwork per month. After some time or even at the first interview, almost every long-term client makes a proposal to a freelancer to make a contract outside Upwork to save on fees. If Upwork can't protect the reputation of freelancers from crazy unprofessional clients it is better to always accept such offers to don't lose 100% JSS. I've been Top Rated and Top Rated Plus for many years. After hidden feedback from one of my clients, my JSS keeps 88% for more than 6 months!!! Unfortunately, the client turned out as an unresponsible liar and the messages can prove that. After I reported to Upwork they just ignored me. How big chance that I'll be loyal to Upwork when the next client asks me to make a contract outside and avoid paying $300-400 to Upwork monthly. Try to guess. Before I was ALWAYS saying "NO", but after such a situation, I have serious reasons to work outside.
  3. Upwork has qualification tests for freelancers but clients. They kind of take care about better service and don't care about how many **it can come from client-side to freelancer. Need to provide some courses or webinars and assessment tests for clients too. For example, one guy seriously wanted to hire a freelancer to work 60-80 hours/week. That's insane because he could get better and cheaper results if he would hire two people for the same price but only 30-40 hours per week each.
  4. Upwork has ratings for freelancers, for clients, but not for itself. I would give 2 of 5 stars to Upwork for the job they made for me this year. Why it's a job? Because I paid them from every contract! And as one of the top-rated freelancers, they've collected a lot of money from me by the latest 4 years.

Truly something dangerous for an Upwork business model. Because If somebody will make any similar platform I'll go there immediately! And I believe there are many people thinking the same way.


TL;DR "My rating dropped below 90% and I need to blame someone other than myself." 


In a nutshell.

I could have saved myself the time of typing out my reply below. 

to Tonya. Good point. There is a part of my fault for sure. I was so naive to trust that client. The fact that he lost his previous developer with scandal didn't warn me enough. I just said to him before we started the contract that if something will go wrong he will give me good feedback anyway. He lied. Wild forest.


Any way, your reply didn't get us closer to solution. You mention how JSS is calculated like a rule from the religion. JSS is made by people. Look around, people often do mistakes. It's our nature still. Think furgher.


Alexander G wrote:

I just said to him before we started the contract that if something will go wrong he will give me good feedback anyway. He lied. Wild forest.

You asked the client to lie. That's very unprofessional. 



"That's very unprofessional. "

 

yeah, that was weird. I honestly wanted to help him. I liked him and his project. To help him I had to make it safe to me.... it a good lesson to never do something like this again.

moonraker
Community Member


So how Upwork looses the professional long-term contractors:
  1. Unfair JSS. You can easily be a top-rated freelancer if you work in small jobs. The impact of bad hidden or public feedback is 100 times more dramatic for long-term contractors. If a client was working with a freelancer for more than a month this means the client was happy all this time. The time of the contract should decrease the impact of negative feedback from a client.

    Yet freelancers who do 'smaller' jobs run the risk of negative feedback every time they get a new client. And there's a perk that allows you to remove the ocassional unerasonable feedback - where you not top-rated up until the recent drop in JSS? 

  2. Upwork is not grateful enough for long-term contractors giving $300 fees to Upwork per month. After some time or even at the first interview, almost every long-term client makes a proposal to a freelancer to make a contract outside Upwork to save on fees. If Upwork can't protect the reputation of freelancers from crazy unprofessional clients it is better to always accept such offers to don't lose 100% JSS. I've been Top Rated and Top Rated Plus for many years. After hidden feedback from one of my clients, my JSS keeps 88% for more than 6 months!!! Unfortunately, the client turned out as an unresponsible liar and the messages can prove that. After I reported to Upwork they just ignored me. How big chance that I'll be loyal to Upwork when the next client asks me to make a contract outside and avoid paying $300-400 to Upwork monthly. Try to guess. Before I was ALWAYS saying "NO", but after such a situation, I have serious reasons to work outside.

    So then you're threatening to break the TOS because a client left you negative feedback?

    And as for protecting your reputation - there's that top-rated perk again. Did you not have a top-rated badge? Why not? 

  3. Upwork has qualification tests for freelancers but clients. They kind of take care about better service and don't care about how many **it can come from client-side to freelancer. Need to provide some courses or webinars and assessment tests for clients too. For example, one guy seriously wanted to hire a freelancer to work 60-80 hours/week. That's insane because he could get better and cheaper results if he would hire two people for the same price but only 30-40 hours per week each.

    Absolutely not. 

    Clients put the money into the system. Their experience should be as frictionless as possible. Clients should be  free to request whatever they like provided it's in accordance with the TOS, and freeelancers are free to choose whether or not to bid. 

  4. Upwork has ratings for freelancers, for clients, but not for itself. I would give 2 of 5 stars to Upwork for the job they made for me this year. Why it's a job? Because I paid them from every contract! And as one of the top-rated freelancers, they've collected a lot of money from me by the latest 4 years.

    There are ratings for clients; clearly visible whenever you send a proposal. 

Truly something dangerous for an Upwork business model. Because If somebody will make any similar platform I'll go there immediately! And I believe there are many people thinking the same way.

I'd try a new platform as well. But I would not expect them to protect me against negative reviews from clients. 


 

"perk that allows you to remove the ocassional unerasonable feedback"

 

Hi. Feedback was private and they dropped my JSS from 100% to 88%, so I lost ability to use top rated previledges as it requires 90%.

 

"There are ratings for clients; clearly visible whenever you send a proposal. "

I ment rating for upwork's job on working as a smart timer)))

 

" I would not expect them to protect me against negative reviews from clients."

I agree. In current case that was a part of agreement with client and documented as a term of the contract inside upwork messanger. I gave him a chance to hire me. He needed to hire somebody urgently. He lost previous developer. I had doubts. I agreed if he promise to leave good feedback if everything will go wrong. That was a deal.


Alexander G wrote:

 

Hi. Feedback was private and they dropped my JSS from 100% to 88%, so I lost ability to use top rated previledges as it requires 90%.

 

You can still use it provided you do so in time. That one's on you. If it happened recently then it might still be available. 

 

I ment rating for upwork's job on working as a smart timer)))

I don't know what you mean.

 

I agree. In current case that was a part of agreement with client and documented as a term of the contract inside upwork messanger. I gave him a chance to hire me. He needed to hire somebody urgently. He lost previous developer. I had doubts. I agreed if he promise to leave good feedback if everything will go wrong. That was a deal.

A dishonest, unprofessional deal. 


 

"unprofessional deal"

 

Indeed. He extremely wanted to get me onboard. I felt a call to help him becasue he is in trouble. Decided more from the heart than from the professional logic. Very stupid. Needed to do this outside upwork like he asked.

You might still be able to use your top-rated perk. 

When did the JSS drop happen? If it was in the last update then the perk should still be available (if you had one to begin with) 

"you might still be able to use your top-rated perk."

 

That was more than 6 month ago. I never cared about JSS. I just was focused on my job, to make better work possible, to help as much as I can even it's not a clear for client sometimes. I thought JSS will recover quicker. But support says it will go lower after the prevous contracts will get older than 2 years. So I'll get 78% JSS soon if I don't find a new job. Or I need to wait 22 months before using upwork next time if I want to have 100% again.


Thank to everyone for replies. I don't expect any solution alredy. My fault was there too. Let it be as it is. And I will be twise more careful with choosing jobs, keep professional communication and never rely on promises even if they will cry in camera.

But it won't make Upwork better marketplace as the problem with weird JSS calculations still exists to my point of view. You might think I a stupid and don't understand the genious mind of creator of JSS. But, guys. I am a stakeholder. Freelancer pays more than client to make this platform pay own bills. If I am not satisfied I'll probably find something else. Of course Upwork won't get bankrupt. They could even laugh. But who knows how everything will go. Nobody talks about Nokia, Dell or anu other huge corporations from the past now. Like Upwork got to the market and other platforms lost freelancers, same way another platform will come and if Upwork has many unsatisfied freelancers they will go to work on another platform. That's it. Market.


Cheers!

 

If you chose not to use the perk then you have nothing to complain about. 

Top-rated freelancers *ARE* protected against the occasional unreasonable feedback. You chose not to use that protection. That's entirely on you. 

"You chose not to use that protection. That's entirely on you. "

I forgot about this and as a feedback was private I didn't think it's so serious.

 

 

Disagree that it's on me. You still think about Upwork like about goverment who rules the lifes. No. it's a service I pay for. Sevice provides me a list of jobs, calculates working hours, guarantees not loosing money for time-based jobs. So I can have any opinion about how service should work to make me satisfied.

 

Upwork sended me many emails, to join seminars for top-rated, to join exclusive program to be promoted for enterprice clients etc. Many stuff to get people envolved, engaged and loyal.

 

But what they had to send me message to achieve the same for free was:  "Hey, man. It's kind of a situation when you are going to loose your top-rated status because that feedback. You worked hard and did a great job for other guys, so you deserve ability to hide it. Consider it! Please do it in next month so we continue our collaboration without any problems."

 

That would be a really something helpful and I would never forget such care.

 


Alexander G wrote:

No. it's a service I pay for.


Wakey wakey... On paper you pay a percentage of what you earn. In reality 100% of the fee is paid by the client.

 


Alexander G wrote:

So I can have any opinion about how service should work to make me satisfied.


Of course you have every right to have an opinion. You also have every right to voice your opinion. We all do!

 

I have just exercised my right to voice my opinion about the weather today.


My expectation that the weather will change based on my expressed opinion is that the probability of that happening is 0%

 

The same likely applies to you.

Every day some of the millions of freelancers on the site express an opinion that Upwork should change their business model based on their own individual circumstances...

Every day some of the millions of freelancers on the site express an opinion that Upwork should change their business model based on their own individual circumstances...

 

Yes. That means a lot of issues that should be resolved by Upwork or another provider. That's it. It's a feedback.


Alexander G wrote:

 

 

Yes. That means a lot of issues that should be resolved by Upwork or another provider. That's it. It's a feedback.


Or it means that a lot of people don't have the nous to make the system work for them and want Upwork to bend to their individual requirements and shortfallings regardless of whether or not it's good for the platform and other, professional freelancers. 

There is a lot wrong with Upwork, but allowing clients to leave an honest review about a freelancer's performance is not one of them. Upwork has even taken into account the fact that some clients can be unreasonable and has provided a solution - a solution that you chose not to use. 

That's your shortfalling, not Upwork's. Yours is not a genuine complaint because YOU CHOSE not to use the solution that was made available to you. 

"YOU CHOSE not to use the solution that was made available to you. "

 

I am afraid I am not sure that I was able to use that solution at all. It requires 10 contracts to hide one. But what if freelancer has worked on one or two contracts last 2 years. He worked many monthes and generated more revenue than 100 short-term workers. Upwork forces to work on small or medium contracts. Not the best for long-term contracts. And that was my initial message. To me everything is clear about what's wrong with JSS and I already pointed on it. If freelancer worked 3 monthes the weight should be in between 1 job and 90 jobs if average small contract on Upwork equals 1 day. For now, unfortunately, nobody catch my point of view. I don't mind about feedbacks. I pointed that impact should not be equal becasue processes are quite different. Long-term contract is not like small job. That's why I don't think it makes sense to continue spending time on discussion. With respect to everybody. You really helped me but in another direction. Thanks Smiley Happy

 

 


Alexander G wrote:

"YOU CHOSE not to use the solution that was made available to you. "

 

I am afraid I am not sure that I was able to use that solution at all


You were. You chose not to because you didn't care (according to your own words)

 


Alexander G wrote:

It requires 10 contracts to hide one.


Nope. You can use it the second you are top rated.


Alexander G wrote:

"YOU CHOSE not to use the solution that was made available to you. "

 

I am afraid I am not sure that I was able to use that solution at all. It requires 10 contracts to hide one. But what if freelancer has worked on one or two contracts last 2 years. He worked many monthes and generated more revenue than 100 short-term workers. Upwork forces to work on small or medium contracts. Not the best for long-term contracts. And that was my initial message. To me everything is clear about what's wrong with JSS and I already pointed on it. If freelancer worked 3 monthes the weight should be in between 1 job and 90 jobs if average small contract on Upwork equals 1 day. For now, unfortunately, nobody catch my point of view. I don't mind about feedbacks. I pointed that impact should not be equal becasue processes are quite different. Long-term contract is not like small job. That's why I don't think it makes sense to continue spending time on discussion. With respect to everybody. You really helped me but in another direction. Thanks Smiley Happy

 

 


If you had the badge, and you've not used the perk before - it was available to you. 

Why are you assuming people working on long-term contracts make more than those who work on short-term contracts? (Not that that's even relevant to JSS) 

And if you only work on long-term contracts then the impact of a single negative review would be the same as for somebody who only worked on short-term contracts. 



Alexander G wrote:

I lost ability to use top rated previledges as it requires 90%..


No, you didn't. You had 14 days from dropping below 90% to use your perk.

 


Alexander G wrote:

I agreed if he promise to leave good feedback if everything will go wrong. That was a deal.


It's called feedback manipulation and isn't allowed. The client also left good public feedback anyway. Deal was kept. Disgraceful, unprofessional and completely inappropriate deal, but kept anyway.

 

Alexander G wrote:

That was more than 6 month ago. I never cared about JSS.


Then why whine about it now?

 

Complete 4 or so contracts wih great outcomes, then you'll have a 6-month calculation window and the poor outcome is outside of it, problem solved. 

to Petra.

I'll do better in future. Lesson was learned.

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