Apr 15, 2021 03:48:27 AM Edited Apr 15, 2021 03:59:18 AM by Kapildev B
I had a client couple of months back. The milestones of fixed price contracts were released, after which client started asking more work with continuous addition. The client filed a dispute and the mediation begun. The client was given the option to move to arbitration with a deadline. Eventually, the client did not respond to the notice for 12 days and the dispute was closed. Suddenly, as soon the dispute close notification was sent, the client came up saying "he did not see the notification until now" and he wants to go to arbitration.
The question being, since the dispute close has already been sent, can it re opened and sent to arbitration?
Apr 15, 2021 03:59:07 AM by Petra R
Kapildev B wrote:The question being, since the dispute close has already been sent, can it re opened and sent to arbitration?
It had better not be... The client already had 12 days rather than the standard 5 days...
Apr 15, 2021 04:04:24 AM by Kapildev B
Totally. You can't miss three notifications and still come back asking to open it again and going a step further to arbitration when you have failed to respond for over a week with a reason or not. Hopefully not
Apr 15, 2021 05:34:26 AM by Vladimir G
Hi Kapildev,
Thanks for the message, I understand your concern. We won't be able to discuss your dispute case or its outcome in the Community forums. Note that our team member will follow up on your support ticket and provide an update. Thank you for understanding.
Apr 15, 2021 07:21:25 AM by Kapildev B
The intent is not discussion. I am trying to understand the process
Apr 15, 2021 08:40:16 AM Edited Apr 15, 2021 08:42:46 AM by Will L
Kapildev B.,
We know how this is supposed to work. Please come back to this thread to let us know if the client's tardy demand for arbitration succeeded.
Thanks and good luck!
Apr 15, 2021 08:57:23 AM by Preston H
I think there are 3 separate concepts:
- How much time does Upwork officially state that a client has to do this?
- How much time does Upwork ACTUALLY allow a client to do this?
- How much time SHOULD a client have to do this?
If Upwork STATES that a client has a certain amount of days to do this, then I think MOST of us would agree that is the amount of time Upwork should allow.
But aside from all that, I will state my opinion very clearly:
Refund thinking hurts clients. A client should resolve everything while a contract is open. Once a client has closed a contract, that should be the end of it. When a client accepts a freelancer's work and releases funds and closes a contract and THEN asks for money back? I consider that "dirty pool" regardless of what Upwork officially (or unofficially) allows.
Apr 15, 2021 09:06:22 AM by Will L
I can see why a client would be allowed to request a refund after a contract is closed if the work product is complex enough that the client may not find an error or problem until after the contract is closed.
I speak from experience when I say that many clients - mostly the ones with tight budgets - close contracts as soon as possible, which I assume is because they can't afford me billing more time and my work to that date suffices.
But they may subsequently find that a particular element of one of the more complex financial models I have provided them is not working correctly. I don't remember that ever happening, but I would make the fix for free if it was my fault. But if I refused to do so the client should have a means to at least get a partial refund to pay for another freelancer to fix the problem.
Nevertheless, there should be (and supposedly is) a time limit for how long after an Upwork project is closed that the client has to find an error and request a fix from the freelancer.
Apr 15, 2021 09:46:51 AM by Kapildev B
Thanks Preston!!
The conundrum here is, the client was already given enough time to respond and seek arbitration. He came back seeking arbitration after the deadline passed. Should he be technically allowed to getaway with deliberate tactics of playing tardy by giving him another opportunity?
My personal opinion and request to the concerned authorities would be to not entertain such requests. Given the fact that he was already sent 3 notifcations. Is it not enough ?
Apr 15, 2021 10:09:30 AM Edited Apr 15, 2021 10:10:14 AM by Preston H
As annoying as after-contract and after-deadline disputes are to freelancers, I really do believe these things are even more damaging to clients.
I think that clients obtain the best outcomes when the continuously focus on pushing their projects forward, and never try to get money back from freelancers.
Hire. Pay.
Hire. Pay.
If something doesn't work, then: Hire. Pay.
Don't look back.
Don't care about individual freelancers. Care about the project.
I just think that's the best way to get projects done with greater speed and quality.
Apr 15, 2021 06:41:27 PM by Kapildev B
As bad as it gets, the mediator gives the client another extension to go to arbitration. The issue is simply dragging on. Also, the client has been allowed to raise a dispute beyond 30 days of funds released.
In all seriousness, it might be worth for a legal expert to have these series of actions reviewed and probably escalate it directly to a court of law
Apr 15, 2021 07:03:38 PM by Jennifer M
Kapildev B wrote:As bad as it gets, the mediator gives the client another extension to go to arbitration.
yep, and you know a freelancer would be banned and wouldn't have this option. They get 3 days to respond but they always get an extension.
Apr 15, 2021 07:49:32 PM Edited Apr 15, 2021 07:51:12 PM by Preston H
You're not helping clients if you make them believe that they can do whatever they want and pay money hither and thither and then if something goes wrong or if they just feel like it they can get their money back. Because often clients can NOT get any money back. There are clients who seem to think that getting a refund for work they paid a freelancer to do is essentially the same as taking a garbage disposal back to Home Depot because you realized you need one with a plug-in cord rather than a hard-wired unit. I can take an unopened box back to Home Depot and they can put it back on the shelf. No harm done. I can't give a freelancer back 20 hours that she spent working on my project. Sometimes Upwork's policies reflect that. Sometimes they don't. If capriciousness in policies was ONLY harmful to freelancers or ONLY harmful to clients, I might view it as an understandable trade-off. But in the end, neither side benefits.
Apr 15, 2021 11:00:32 PM Edited Apr 15, 2021 11:01:36 PM by Petra R
Kapildev B wrote:As bad as it gets, the mediator gives the client another extension to go to arbitration. The issue is simply dragging on.
How much money are we talking about?
Kapildev B wrote:Also, the client has been allowed to raise a dispute beyond 30 days of funds released.
Are you sure? Was there money in escrow at the time? The terms of service are pretty clear on that. There have to be funds in escrow and/or the last invoice date (release of milestone) must be less than 30 days ago.
Kapildev B wrote:In all seriousness, it might be worth for a legal expert to have these series of actions reviewed and probably escalate it directly to a court of law
Can you afford an international lawsuit?
Apr 15, 2021 11:02:58 PM by Kapildev B
$1000
Yes, I am pretty sure the escrow was released 30 days before for the first milestone atleast.
We have already initiated the lawsuit and our team is reaching out to the legal authorities in California.
Apr 15, 2021 11:05:50 PM Edited Apr 15, 2021 11:08:21 PM by Petra R
Kapildev B wrote:Yes, I am pretty sure the escrow was released 30 days before for the first milestone atleast.
That's irrelevant. It's the LAST milestone that matters, not the first
Kapildev B wrote:We have already initiated the lawsuit
You have? Against whom?
And who is "we"? You have an individual profile
Apr 15, 2021 11:12:47 PM by Kapildev B
We means my team.
Who else do you think we would file the lawsuit against? There are 3 parties involved here.
Apr 15, 2021 11:19:48 PM Edited Apr 15, 2021 11:27:11 PM by Petra R
Kapildev B wrote:Who else do you think we would file the lawsuit against?
Well, the client or Upwork and a lawsuit on what legal basis?
You said you have already filed the lawsuit. That was quick... Usually it takes a lot longer. Do you think it's worth the tens of thousands of Dollars this is costing you?
Out of curiosity: Did the client ever get the tablets back they sent you?
Apr 15, 2021 11:26:08 PM by Kapildev B
I pressed the wrong button.
The process is under jurisdiction so you might have to wait to find out.
I have my representatives in California who are family, so legal costs are covered.
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