.

[sm_shaheer]

.

[codexspark]

exactly same situation nobody sents even a single msg to tired of all these things to again buy connects tailor proposal find an exactly matching job and again no response.

[robin_hyman · Accepted solution]

How many full-time jobs have you applied for in your lifetime?  And of those jobs, how many did you take the time to craft, hoping for a response?  And then how many requested an interview?  Next you spend time reviewing the company details, questions you may be asked and questions to ask the interviewer.  You have the interview and then... nothing.  Or, they seem to think you are a good fit and schedule a next round.  And you plan even more - questions for each interview, decide what to wear, how to get there.  You have your interview and then...nothing.  

It's happened many times for me.  You're just not the one they want.  

So now we have a platform where you can submit online from anywhere in the world to work remotely in the comfort of your own home.  And set your own hours.  

Enjoy the freedom.  Stop stressing about the jobs you haven't won.  Focus on the future and everything will be ok.  

[robin_hyman]

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Syed Muhammad S wrote:

What do you mean by a full-time job in my lifetime? Are you trying to suggest that freelancing just cannot be adopted as a full-time job or did you mean that there is no difference between applying and interviewing process for working remotely and working on-site? Because I take freelancing and working on upwork as a full-time job, make no mistakes but I take it very seriously, and I've applied/ given interviews in those full-time jobs (remote/on-site) to the best of my knowledge and abilities enough times. 

I don't know the art of verbal sparring in the realm of upwork community leaders and gurus, but it sure seemed like from your response that working on a full-time job is different from working on upwork.

And I am sorry that it happened to you too many times, I agree I am not alone, the global economy is shrinking and we all are part of it. I am thankful that I now have a platform that is apparently giving the opportunity to work remotely, why do you think I pay upwork $15 every month for keeping the membership? So, I am thankful for it.

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Syed/Shaheer:

My post wasn't meant to be "verbally sparring" as you put it.  It was a response to your post complaining about not getting responses.  I am comparing your experience with applying to other jobs.  It doesn't have to be full-time.  It was just used as an example.  Any time you apply for a position, you put effort into it.  The client has no responsibility, either for a freelance job, full-time position or any other position to respond.  If they do, great.  But it should not be expected nor should you dwell on it.  

Simply move on and do your best when applying to each post.  

Good luck!

Robin

[bcvekic]

Sending an application for a real job doesn't cost a dollar, and you don't have to do it for every single task 🙂

Getting a real job puts the employer at mid or long term risk if they choose the wrong person. So, as much freedom freelancers get by online jobs, that amount of freedom goes to the online clients as well.

The complaint isn't about not getting a job, but for the lack of information WHY someone didn't get a job and what happened to the proposal. Even the information whether the client clicked on our proposal/attachment/portfolio would be useful, and that's something that can be done automatically, without even bothering the client to explicitely give a feedback.

I don't understand why freelancers are "ungrateful" if they wish to know more about the client's thoughts or needs? Wouldn't that be beneficial for the clients as well?

[mwiggenhorn]

Applying for a "real job" involves sending out resumes (printing and postage), interviewing (nice clothes, transportation to and from, parking, tolls and mileage, and several hours of your time, sometimes including extensive unpaid testing) and, in my experience, not hearing back from the employer as to why you weren't hired.

$.15/ connect is cheap compared to that, IMO.  

[datasciencewonk]

Yeah, for interviews in my field, you're frequently tested with business cases. It's free work, upfront (even if they don't actually use your findings OR hire you). One wanted me to have (basically) a three-week interview which would conclude with my giving a business presentation on my findings (you'd recognize the name if I stated, but I signed an NDA, so....). 

Absolutely. It does have a cost to apply to jobs (especially in my field). Upwork is insanely convenient when compared to the job finding and interviewing process I've gone through over the last 3 years (but, I'm in a highly analytical sector). Is there gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands? Yes. Upwork isn't perfect. 

But, it's been quicker and easier than the whole W-2 process. At least, for me. 

Edited: Clarity and incessant self copy-editing. 

[bcvekic]

I still don't understand the logic "when applying for the full-time jobs you don't get feedback, so you don't need it here". That's why technology helps things to evolve, so the computer can do that instead of busy employers. It is 21st century.

Going to a real meeting (which can get you settled for life) is still less expensive than sending 40 proposals for two jobs of 200$. That's almost 40$ of connects + 40$ of fees for the earning of 320$. But that's how it is, and all that is irrelevant for this topic.

We are talking about feedback on Upwork, and making proposals and services more effective. Why is it too much for me to ask to see if my proposal or attachment was even clicked on? That's like a few lines of code that would help a great deal.

There could even be a simple attachment viewer, where beside each item could be three buttons - "good", "good but doesn't fit this project" and "bad", which the client will or will not click on.

With such data, and non-intrusive interface for a client, freelancers would have much better insight.

[florydev]

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Boris C wrote:

We are talking about feedback on Upwork, and making proposals and services more effective. Why is it too much for me to ask to see if my proposal or attachment was even clicked on? That's like a few lines of code that would help a great deal.

---

And 400 hours of meetings, testing, and deployments and rollbacks.  Oh, I exaggerate...but then again so do you.  Which one of us is exaggerating more I wonder?

You are missing the point which is, what good does it do you?  Unless someone is willing to sit down with you and give you a complete run down of why your pitch did not appeal to them you will not have learned much of anything beyond they didn't want you.  Even with that you will only learn that it did not work with that client.

Honestly, I can't much of anything I need less than a client telling me exactly why they think my services are not worthy of their attention.   VD's and cancer maybe.

You swing, you miss, try something different until it works...you can sit here wishing for more information and maybe you will get it...but in the meantime, this is all you have.

[lysis10]

Go back to quora god social media was a mistake.

[kat303]

You shouldn't be spending hours crafting cover letters. If your cover letters are so detailed then you are wasting your time and effort. Details should be given during an interview stage and if, during that stage it will take hours to discuss the client's project, then you should be paid for that time/consultation.

It's not a clien't's job to respond to each and every freelancer who submitted a cover letter especially if you see >50 in the job description statistics. That could mean 100, 150 or even more than 250 freelancers have responded. It would be pointless for a client to respond to that many.  It's nice if a client does respond that's pretty rare. 

If in your original post, you invite freelancers to respond with any comments, then there is NO reason to nit pick every word in any response. There was nothing wrong with Robin's reply to you. She gave a very nice explanation of a similar situation. This is a discussion forum and there will be good responses and snarky responses, because that's what happens on discussion forums. 

[bcvekic]

I agree. Freelancers are left in the dark, and let's not forget that we pay practically a dollar for each proposal. 20 connects are 3$, and every serious job requires 6 connects now. So, 3 dollars, 3 proposals. We get no feedback whatsoever.

If I kept the rate of 2-3 proposals per day, like before we should pay for them (which is normal, because that many jobs that I'd be qualified for  appear daily), it would cost me 80-90$ a month, to get maybe 1 or 2 interviews.

If you are interested in some stats - I (used to) post about 20 proposals for animation jobs a month, leaving the link to my animation reel on Vimeo. In 3-4 months, my video had 12 views (2-3 of which is probably mine from different devices), so very few of the clients even go through all proposals.

Rating of the clients, based on their feedback, should be publicly displayed, so we don't waste our time and considerable amount of money on unreliable and unresponsive clients.

Now, I understand that the clients are the ones with the money (but after those calculations with connects it seems more is earned from freelancers), and that you can't just force them to review and give feedback on every proposal, but there should be some alternatives.

Maybe some connects should be returned to freelancer if it's proposal isn't even opened? Maybe to have a data on which of the attached files were opened/links clicked/portfolio items viewed? Anything that would be useful to hone our practices while applying for jobs.

[petra_r]

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Boris C wrote:

If I kept the rate of 2-3 proposals per day, like before we should pay for them (which is normal, because that many jobs that I'd be qualified for  appear daily), it would cost me 80-90$ a month,

---

Your maths is wayyyyy off...

If you apply for 2 - 3 (say 2.5 average) jobs a day now, 30 days a month, it would be 75 applications.

Even if all of those were at 6 connects (unlikely) it would now cost you $ 67.50 a month.

Under the old system, when all jobs were 2 connects and you paid $ 1.00 per extra connect, it would have cost you $ 10 for the membership which gave you 35 applications, and would have paid 40 x $2 for the rest of the connects - so altogether you'd have paid $ 90 a month to apply for 2 to 3 jobs a day.

Using your own numbers, it is considerably cheaper for you now than it was back then.

[florydev]

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Petra R wrote:

---

Boris C wrote:

If I kept the rate of 2-3 proposals per day, like before we should pay for them (which is normal, because that many jobs that I'd be qualified for  appear daily), it would cost me 80-90$ a month,

---

Your maths is wayyyyy off...

Using your own numbers, it is considerably cheaper for you now than it was back then.

---

Logic and reason, you don't fight fair.

[lysis10]

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Mark F wrote:

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Logic and reason, you don't fight fair.

---

Excuse me, sir, but have you considered the legal precedent Reals vs Feels? It's pretty rude to argue with his truth.

[versailles]

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Syed Muhammad S wrote:

I find it little too offensive when a client just does not respond

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You'd feel better if each client you send a proposal to writes back saying you're not hired? That would make you happier?

[florydev]

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Rene K wrote:

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Syed Muhammad S wrote:

I find it little too offensive when a client just does not respond

---

You'd feel better if each client you send a proposal to writes back saying you're not hired? That would make you happier?

I sure would...as long as they replied back with:

You are so incredible we just didn't feel worthy enough to have you do our project. 

Anything else though might be crippling to the ego.