Client Cancelled Contract & Requesting Escrow Refund of 1st Milestone

[curiouslondon]

Hello,

My client & I agreed to cancel the contract as the work I was submitting was apparently not what she wanted.

Fixed Price Contract.

The 1st milestone was for "FIRST 3 CONCEPTS"

I provided 6 to begin with, and she asked for revisions of 2 of them, plus a few more options. I complied.

After submitting 15 drafts, she opted to end the contract as my designs were not what she had in mind...

I assumed I would be paid for the 1st milstone, as I delivered multiple concepts. I did not expect her to request a refund.

Suggestions?

Many Thanks!

Jennifer

[petra_r · Accepted solution]

---

Jennifer G wrote:

After submitting 15 drafts, she opted to end the contract as my designs were not what she had in mind...

I assumed I would be paid for the 1st milstone, as I delivered multiple concepts. I did not expect her to request a refund.

---

Again? That's unfortunate...

Have you tried to discuss it with your client?

Ultimately your choices are to accept the refund request or to dispute.

[curiouslondon]

Yes, again.

I was on a roll for the first few years, and suddenly one sketchy client after the next.

I tried to discuss it with her, but its not going anywhere. She represents an agency, so while I can dispute it, its not worth going into arbitration.

Thanks Petra!

[petra_r]

---

Jennifer G wrote:

...while I can dispute it, its not worth going into arbitration.

---

Disputing does not mean going to arbitration... Client might back down / out

[kat303]

As more and more freelancers are refunding the payment they worked for, you're going to see more and more clients asking for refunds. Freelancers will gladly issue that request because they are afraid of a lower JSS, they are afraid of a negative review, or because the client told them their work is not what they need. 

You went above and beyond what was required for the 1st milestone and you definitely should be paid for that 1st milestone. Don't be so quick to give that refund. You did put in time and effort and IMO you fulfilled the requirements of that milestone. 

Don't reward this client for their behavior. Don't freely give that refund. Don't reinforce their actions of getting free work just because they tell you it's not what they want. I suggest that you file a dispute. 

As more and more freelancers decide to stand up to the abuse that's being seen here lately, less and less clients will be using that tactic and getting away with free work.  

[curiouslondon]

Thanks Kathy, I appreciate your feedback.

It does seem like that is possibly what is happening. Especially with sites like **Edited for Community Guidelines**, I was wondering how many people come here for great concepts, then cancel & take the drafts there, for less.

[colettelewis]

Adding to what Kathy said, as you have not been paid for it, the work belongs to you. Your client does not have any right to use it, which you could point out to her. 

[manveen_dua]

Hi Nichola,
I'm in a similar situation.
I've completed the writing to receive positive feedback. She then comes around with a change of mind and wanted her work to be edited which I obliged. After the second revision she now says the writing doesn't resonate with her thoughts and hence wants to end the contract.

I'm worried since this is a big job and I worked hard.

Money is in Escrow. What should my next step be?

[wlyonsatl]

If you haven't already done so, immediately submit the work you have done using the green "Submit" button(s) related to every milestone you have completed or nearly completed. If you think a milestone is not yet 100% complete, note in your cover letter to the client the one or two things you beiieve still need to be done (if any) and suggest a call or her feedback on how she wants those final changes made. She has 14 days to reply before the funded amounts on those milestones are automatically paid out to you.

You will only be able to do this for milestones the client has funded.

If the client cancels the project before you have formally submitted your work on funded milestones using the "Submit" button, you have little chance of ever being paid.

[petra_r]

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Will L wrote:

If the client cancels the project before you have formally submitted your work on funded milestones using the "Submit" button, you have little chance of ever being paid.

---

This is the problem when people post more than one post with the same question and differing amounts of info and details...

She has completed milestone 1 and the client requested changes, which she has done. In her other post she mentions the client creating a second milestone, but also that she made the requested changes free of charge which is a bit confusing.

[manveen_dua]

Hi..
Thanks for your reply.
I've submitted one copy which she gave feedback on and another
with edits.

But every time she asks an edit, she moves the milestone date.
IT's a single project milestone and not split into parts.

She's again requested changes and started the clock on the 'submit work'
button.

I don't know what to do!

[petra_r]

---

Manveen M wrote:

But every time she asks an edit, she moves the milestone date.
IT's a single project milestone and not split into parts.

---

So what did you mean in your other post, where you wrote

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Manveen M wrote:
She created another milestone and I rendered changes free of cost and submitted.

---

?

How much money are we talking about? Is the client actually asking for her money back at this stage?

What is the client actually unhappy with?

[manveen_dua]

Hey,
Ok so this is a full website content work.
I've completed the single milestone set and sent the work on 1st August
completing the milestone and requesting payment.

She appreciated the work and then two days later asked for re-work on the
grounds that 'it doesn't resonate' with my thoughts.She requested for
re-work and then she set the clock back on 'Resubmit Work For Payment.'
I gave her the changes exactly the way she wanted and she comes back today
and says she would like to close the contract.

This is what I see on my screen now/
I'm scared because this is a huge amount of work!

[image: image.png]

[wlyonsatl]

Submit your work using the "Submit" button. It is my understanding she will
not then be able to change the milestone date for that milestone.


Make sure she knows you will still make some (specific) further changes to
the submitted work, but you will not move on to working on the next
milestone until the current milestone is complete, she has released payment
on it and the next.milestone is fully funded.


If you use multiple milestones on all projects, that helps you control the
process of completing milestones and getting paid as the project progresses.

[manveen_dua]

Hey,
Sorry if I'm being a pest.

She's clear she wants to close the contract.
What do I do now?

How do I ensure I get paid?

[petra_r]

---

Manveen M wrote:
Hey,
Sorry if I'm being a pest.

She's clear she wants to close the contract.
What do I do now?

How do I ensure I get paid?

---

If she closes the contract and pays you, that's fine.

If she tries to close the contract without paying, you can dispute.

A dispute can not result in a legally binding decision, it is a mediation process.

If that fails, there is only the option of going to arbitration, but that costs $ 291 each. I would not worry about it yet, at this point submit for payment and see what happens.

Where in the world is he client located?

[prestonhunter]

re: "I'm scared because this is a huge amount of work!"

You're not supposed to do a huge amount of work without getting paid.

Especailly with clients you don't know and haven't worked with before.

Like Will says, you are supposed to divide things into smaller milestones.

Especially at the start.

if you had done just the first part of this project - like an hour or two of work - and the client gave you the runaround about paying you, or asked for a bunch of changes, then you would not be so worried about getting paid because the amount would be much smaller. Worst case scenario, you could simply end things and walk away without having invested too much time in this.

Fixed-price contracts are a privilege. Clients need to demonstrate that they can be trusted to release payment and not ask for a bunch of new things or changes.

Otherwise, freelancers should only work with those clients using hourly contracts. Or not at all.

[manveen_dua]

I'm new.
I'm learning my lessons bitterly.

She's not closing the contract. She wants to compensate me 'fairly' and is
waiting for me to come up with a figure.

I'm not sure if I want to raise a dispute here or if will help me in any
way.

[manveen_dua]

Lesson learnt.
Thanks a lot for your help.

[manveen_dua]

Hi,
She's on Oahu.

I don't think going into 'arbitration' is something I want.
She's willing to compensate my work (worth hours and $700) with a fair
amount.
Also I'm worried about the impact this will have on my Feedback.

As a person who knows Upwork, what would your advice be?
Go into dispute or settle upon a lesser figure?

[prestonhunter]

re: "As a person who knows Upwork, what would your advice be? Go into dispute or settle upon a lesser figure?"

We can't fully answer your question without knowing the numbers.

Was the original agreement for $700, and she is willing to pay you $600 immediately?

Take the money.

Don't worry so much about feedback right now. Get paid.

PERSONALLY: I avoid disputes and prefer to work things out with the client if there is a disagreement. IF YOU GO TO DISPUTE: it is going to take time, Upwork is NOT going to make a decision, and they're going to ask you to work things out with the client.

So if you can come to an agreement with the client, then yes, you should do that.

[manveen_dua]

Thank you very much.
My gut says the same.

Yes the original amount decided upon was $700.
Perhaps I should ask for $600 and see how it goes.

[petra_r]

---

Manveen M wrote:

She's willing to compensate my work (worth hours and $700) with a fair
amount.

---

Whose idea of fair? Is there an amount you would consider "fair?"

[prestonhunter]

Of course the client SHOULD pay you what was agreed upon.

Unfortunately, Upwork's user interface doesn't guarantee that she do that.

It lets clients ask for revisions, so they can avoid paying you indefinitely.

It is a weakness in the Upwork fixed-price system.

Sometimes as a freelancer I need to make a choice that means settling for less, in order to bring things to a close. But if that's what happens, I know that is a client who is not to be trusted, and I will not work with them again.

[tlbp]

---

Manveen M wrote:
Hi,
She's on Oahu.

I don't think going into 'arbitration' is something I want.
She's willing to compensate my work (worth hours and $700) with a fair
amount.
Also I'm worried about the impact this will have on my Feedback.

As a person who knows Upwork, what would your advice be?
Go into dispute or settle upon a lesser figure?

---

Since you don't have much of a history on Upwork, I would take the money and run. It is better to have a something-paid contract than a nothing-paid contract. 

Then, read through all of Upwork's official help content plus many of the forum posts. Focus particularly on client management tips when you read through the forum posts. Clients can be flakey. It sounds like you are working with someone who is reasonable but doesn't know what they want. This is much better than working with someone who is intentionally out to scam you. However, neither situation is ideal. 

[manveen_dua]

If I refuse to accept a compensation and she does close the contract,

what happens to my payment?
Does Escrow release it to me for back to the client.

[petra_r]

---

Manveen M wrote:

If I refuse to accept a compensation and she does close the contract,

what happens to my payment?
Does Escrow release it to me for back to the client.

---

That depends on whether you accept the request to return the escrow funds or dispute

---

Preston H wrote:

It lets clients ask for revisions, so they can avoid paying you indefinitely.

It is a weakness in the Upwork fixed-price system.

---

No they can not and it isn't. Why would you tell her such a thing? When a client tries that, you can dispute.

---

---

[prestonhunter]

re: "Why would you tell her such a thing? When a client tries that, you can dispute."

Yes, that is precisely the problem.

Unless the freelancer files a dispute, Upwork allows clients the ability to use the Request Changes button unlimited times.

The "fixed-price loophole," with which dishonest clients can attempt to avoid paying for work they hired freelancers to do, or attempt to get freelancers to do more and more work without additional pay, is a major weakness in Upwork's overall system.

Allowing clients to do this until a dispute is filed is obviously not ideal. But I'm not saying I have thought of an ideal way to improve this. This may be a "necessary" weakness.

[petra_r]

---

Preston H wrote:

re: "Why would you tell her such a thing? When a client tries that, you can dispute."

Yes,

---

That is not what you told her. No doubt deliberately. You told her, categorically, in that "These are the facts, the entire facts, and nothing but the facts" tone of yours, that the client can just keep doing this and implying that there is nothing she can do. And that is untrue. AKA "a lie."

Do I think she should dispute at this stage of the contract and her career on Upwork? No. I do not. But we have to give her the options she has and why each is, or is not, a good idea, not just slam untruths down as facts.

---

Preston H wrote:

Yes, that is precisely the problem.

Unless the freelancer files a dispute, Upwork allows clients the ability to use the Request Changes button unlimited times.

---

It is no more problematic than choosing whether to click "accept return of escrow funds" or "dispute" when a client ends a contract requesting their money back.

Just because you believe that nobody should ever file a dispute does not give you the right to try and make her believe that she can not do so should she make the informed decision to go ahead and use this remedy to stop a client from making repeated requests for changes.

Any action or inaction has consequences, but misleading newbies by withholding options to coerce them into accepting less money or giving up is somewhere between disingenuous and outright malicious.

[manveen_dua]

Hi,
She's very cheekily paid me $125 (nowhere close to what the fixed cost was)
and asked for a refund of ESCROW funds!

I'm livid and feel cheated.

I would love to file a dispute because either ways, what do I have to lose?

She's just not going to cough up the balance.

Advice please?

[prestonhunter]

Advice?

She paid you $125 put of $700 she owes you.

Mathematically, your best possible outcome comes from rejecting any request for a refund. She actually CAN NOT get her money up of escrow unless you agree to the refund.

Or unless she wins during arbitration. Which she won't.

So you should deny refund requests. Let it go to dispute. During dispute, if asked for a compromise amount, tell the moderator you will accept a total of $600 (minus the $125 you already received). If she doesn't accept that, then proceed to arbitration.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Preston H wrote:

Advice?

She paid you $125 put of $700 she owes you.

Mathematically, your best possible outcome comes from rejecting any request for a refund. She actually CAN NOT get her money up of escrow unless you agree to the refund.

Or unless she wins during arbitration. Which she won't.

So you should deny refund requests. Let it go to dispute. During dispute, if asked for a compromise amount, tell the moderator you will accept a total of $600 (minus the $125 you already received). If she doesn't accept that, then proceed to arbitration.

---

Preston, please stop dispensing one-size-fits-all advice, especially to new FLs. And especially when it comes to disputes and arbitration, which you don't engage in yourself. (You consistently opine that getting entangled in disputes is un-businesslike and a waste of time.) Let those with more firsthand experience take the lead in these discussions.

A FL just starting out on UW has to balance more considerations than just the money at stake on a particular project. Digging in one's heels over a few hundred dollars is one thing when you have several dozen successful contracts under your belt and a strong JSS. It's entirely different when you don't have a JSS yet and every contract weighs a lot.

[manveen_dua]

Continuing with your mention of Job Score, hasn't it already been tarnished
now that the contract has been ended by the client?
Also, what's the assurance that she'll give me a good feedback in a
scenario that I don't dispute?

[lysis10]

---

Manveen M wrote:
Continuing with your mention of Job Score, hasn't it already been tarnished
now that the contract has been ended by the client?
Also, what's the assurance that she'll give me a good feedback in a
scenario that I don't dispute?

---

Feedback has already been given, so there is no chance of her giving you good feedback by pestering her.

[lysis10]

---

Manveen M wrote:
Hi,
She's very cheekily paid me $125 (nowhere close to what the fixed cost was)
and asked for a refund of ESCROW funds!

I'm livid and feel cheated.

I would love to file a dispute because either ways, what do I have to lose?

She's just not going to cough up the balance.

Advice please?

---

Did you do $700 worth of work? If you didn't, you won't win so let it go. If it goes into arbitration, idk what your chances are of winning. You are misrepresenting your skill set and that will likely affect the decision.

[manveen_dua]

Skill set.

1) In my opinion when a client agrees to.a fixed price contract its an
informed decision bearing in mind what is being offered.

2) The work offered was accepted and appreciated as 'beautifully written
except for a few minor changes.'

3) Additional SEO services, Key Word Research and Website Content
Consultation was offered pro-bono.

4) The content had no errors.

5) Content was edited in accordance to client's request with the specific
content added as per her desire.

Now, when you say skill set specifically with reference to website
writing, it includes correctness of information, register, tone,
inclusion of call for action, SEO optimized work and oh, I can go on.

When the client says "It doenst match my thoughts" (and mind you she gave
me no brief/ reference / raw content), its not a question of skill set.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Manveen M wrote:
Hi,
She's very cheekily paid me $125 (nowhere close to what the fixed cost was)
and asked for a refund of ESCROW funds!

I'm livid and feel cheated.

I would love to file a dispute because either ways, what do I have to lose?

She's just not going to cough up the balance.

Advice please?

---

If you were sitting on a strong track record (a dozen or more successfully closed contracts, JSS in mid-90s or higher), I would advise holding out for 2/3 to 3/4 of the original fee. Collectively, we FLs should avoid training clients to knock us around and individually, we need to defend our own value. However, you don't have a JSS yet and it will be exponentially more difficult to start out with a strong one if your second or third project ends with poor feedback. It's possible this client is not going to leave good feedback no matter what you do now, but if you dispute, then you should expect to get slammed.

The dispute process is not binding. An UW mediator will simply encourage you and the client to reach a mutually acceptable resolution. If that proves futile, and you refuse to approve refund of the escrow amount she wants returned, then she can file for arbitration. She will pay an arbitration fee of $291, UW pays $291, and you have to pay $291. Whoever wins arbitration gets the money in contention. Nobody gets their arbitration fee back. If the client files for arbitration and pays the fee and you elect not to do so, then she automatically wins and she gets her arbitration fee back (because it doesn't go to the arbitrator if you don't both enter into the process). 

I've never been to arbitration and don't feel confident speculating about her chances of winning. Others have more experience and may weigh in.

My bottom-line advice is to take the $125 and write off the remainder as tuition for lessons learned, then try to find the lessons. If the client is not a complete scammer or complete flake, then review the whole project and look for ways/instances when the two of you might have miscommunicated, which resulted in you thinking you completed the work as specified and her thinking you did not. Look for anything you could do better next time, re. managing the project and/or managing the client. Just as important, look for any clues you missed before accepting the contract that the client might turn out to be problematic. 

[lysis10]

---

Phyllis G wrote:

---

If you were sitting on a strong track record (a dozen or more successfully closed contracts, JSS in mid-90s or higher), I would advise holding out for 2/3 to 3/4 of the original fee. Collectively, we FLs should avoid training clients to knock us around and individually, we need to defend our own value. However, you don't have a JSS yet and it will be exponentially more difficult to start out with a strong one if your second or third project ends with poor feedback. It's possible this client is not going to leave good feedback no matter what you do now, but if you dispute, then you should expect to get slammed.

The dispute process is not binding. An UW mediator will simply encourage you and the client to reach a mutually acceptable resolution. If that proves futile, and you refuse to approve refund of the escrow amount she wants returned, then she can file for arbitration. She will pay an arbitration fee of $291, UW pays $291, and you have to pay $291. Whoever wins arbitration gets the money in contention. Nobody gets their arbitration fee back. If the client files for arbitration and pays the fee and you elect not to do so, then she automatically wins and she gets her arbitration fee back (because it doesn't go to the arbitrator if you don't both enter into the process). 

I've never been to arbitration and don't feel confident speculating about her chances of winning. Others have more experience and may weigh in.

My bottom-line advice is to take the $125 and write off the remainder as tuition for lessons learned, then try to find the lessons. If the client is not a complete scammer or complete flake, then review the whole project and look for ways/instances when the two of you might have miscommunicated, which resulted in you thinking you completed the work as specified and her thinking you did not. Look for anything you could do better next time, re. managing the project and/or managing the client. Just as important, look for any clues you missed before accepting the contract that the client might turn out to be problematic. 

---

The client is definitely not a scammer. Just cheap, and that means she will run into the "native english" but not really crowd. We're not allowed to point out english levels, but if this chick pushes arbitration the arbiter won't care about her little feefees and protecting her from mean people commenting on her english levels. They'll just flat out tell her that she sucks.

If the client is able to show that the writing sucks, then she will win. I have a feeling the client was just being nice by saying "it doesn't resonate with me" but really it's just not good so she offered to pay something and move on. It doesn't sound like the money is even in escrow at this point but idk. It's not clear to me. It sounds to me like she did a first milestone, the client held out for the second one to see how it went (maybe thinking she was just off on her first round) and on the second one decided to cut her loose.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Jennifer M wrote:

---

Phyllis G wrote:

---

If you were sitting on a strong track record (a dozen or more successfully closed contracts, JSS in mid-90s or higher), I would advise holding out for 2/3 to 3/4 of the original fee. Collectively, we FLs should avoid training clients to knock us around and individually, we need to defend our own value. However, you don't have a JSS yet and it will be exponentially more difficult to start out with a strong one if your second or third project ends with poor feedback. It's possible this client is not going to leave good feedback no matter what you do now, but if you dispute, then you should expect to get slammed.

The dispute process is not binding. An UW mediator will simply encourage you and the client to reach a mutually acceptable resolution. If that proves futile, and you refuse to approve refund of the escrow amount she wants returned, then she can file for arbitration. She will pay an arbitration fee of $291, UW pays $291, and you have to pay $291. Whoever wins arbitration gets the money in contention. Nobody gets their arbitration fee back. If the client files for arbitration and pays the fee and you elect not to do so, then she automatically wins and she gets her arbitration fee back (because it doesn't go to the arbitrator if you don't both enter into the process). 

I've never been to arbitration and don't feel confident speculating about her chances of winning. Others have more experience and may weigh in.

My bottom-line advice is to take the $125 and write off the remainder as tuition for lessons learned, then try to find the lessons. If the client is not a complete scammer or complete flake, then review the whole project and look for ways/instances when the two of you might have miscommunicated, which resulted in you thinking you completed the work as specified and her thinking you did not. Look for anything you could do better next time, re. managing the project and/or managing the client. Just as important, look for any clues you missed before accepting the contract that the client might turn out to be problematic. 

---

The client is definitely not a scammer. Just cheap, and that means she will run into the "native english" but not really crowd. We're not allowed to point out english levels, but if this chick pushes arbitration the arbiter won't care about her little feefees and protecting her from mean people commenting on her english levels. They'll just flat out tell her that she sucks.

If the client is able to show that the writing sucks, then she will win. I have a feeling the client was just being nice by saying "it doesn't resonate with me" but really it's just not good so she offered to pay something and move on. It doesn't sound like the money is even in escrow at this point but idk. It's not clear to me. It sounds to me like she did a first milestone, the client held out for the second one to see how it went (maybe thinking she was just off on her first round) and on the second one decided to cut her loose.

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After taking a look at OP's profile, that all makes perfect sense to me. 

[manveen_dua]

I'm sorry but who is an OP and what is it that is making sense to you?