Client Cheated on Me.

[devsyed]

Hi. I am a newly registered freelancer at upwork, and trying to make a living out of here. I was recently approached by an **Edited for Community Guidelines** client, requesting to create custom wordpress functionalities for his client company called **Edited for Community Guidelines**. The Project was divided into 3 phases. The first one was to get the front-end ready, second phase was to ready the functionalities and the third to finishing it and securing it. The Project cost was around $1200, which the client decided to divide over 3 milestones, $200,$300,$700 respectively.

I completed phase 1 and the milestone was approved. While I was on the edge of completing phase 2, client came up with more changes in the site, regarding css, layouts, responsiveness, which was not even promised anywhere in the first place. Since this was my first job, I did it as a gesture of gratefulness. He almost made me change the layout twice during the second phase, which I did without making any complains, which led to submission of milestone 2, 4 days after the milestone 2 due date. 

The client approved the 2nd milestone and $300. 

Just Yesterday, the client messages and says, the project is gone, and he removes my access from the backend of the website. The client demands, that If I dont let them use my work, I will have to return both milestones funds back, and If I let them use it, I only have to return the second milestone funds back. He has requested a refund, and he threatens to leave a bad review if $300 is not refunded. 

PS: Turns out, there was no client that he always mentioned to meeting to, Its one of his own ventures. 

What should I do? I have worked really hard on this one, I did not take few projects because of this ongoing project. 

Should I end the contract? because client has not ended the contract yet. Please help me out. 

Update: Client came back and is now asking for full refund. even for the PHASE 1. He also messaged that If you want to end this amicably and want me not to leave a bad feedback, return the money.  

I have reported his message to upwork. Because Right now thats All I can do.

[michael_skaggs · Accepted solution]

If the client released payment for work completed, then that means they approved of the work submitted. They can't demand their money back just because they changed their mind on a project.

They paid for two deliverables (the milestones), which you provided, and their release of the funds is their acceptance that the work was done to their standards. They're well within their rights to use whatever code and design you submitted with those milestones, but you are under no obligation to return any money to them for those.

If you do return the money, then they no longer have any right to use your work.

I would report them to Upwork, as threatening a bad review for not refunding completed work after they changed their mind is against the TOS. From what you've said, they're not even complaining about the quality of the work, so a dispute would likely get them nowhere. They just want to use your work for free, and are threatening to leave negative feedback if they can't.

Also, for future reference, never do any work that isn't part of a fully funded milestone. It sounds like when you did that extra work, even though you were trying to be nice, the client saw this as weakness and being a "sucker," leading to them trying to get you to work for free. If they want you to do extra work, fine, but they should be paying for that extra work if it's outside the scope of what you already agreed to do.

[wlyonsatl]

Michael,

Is it true that within a certain period after the last approved payment on any fixed price project the client can contest any and all payments they have made to the freelancer under that project and the only recourse the freelancer has to prevent Upwork making a refund, other than trying to convince the client they are wrong to demand repayment, is to agree to pay $291 for formal arbitration?

[petra_r]

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Will L wrote:

Is it true that within a certain period after the last approved payment on any fixed price project the client can contest any and all payments they have made to the freelancer under that project and the only recourse the freelancer has to prevent Upwork making a refund, other than trying to convince the client they are wrong to demand repayment, is to agree to pay $291 for formal arbitration?

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The client can dispute any and all payment made under the contract within 30 days after the Client was billed for the last milestone, so even if the 30 days have passed, all the client needs to do is fund $ 5 in Escrow and the entire contract becomes disputable again.

[m_terrazas]

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Petra R wrote:

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Will L wrote:

Is it true that within a certain period after the last approved payment on any fixed price project the client can contest any and all payments they have made to the freelancer under that project and the only recourse the freelancer has to prevent Upwork making a refund, other than trying to convince the client they are wrong to demand repayment, is to agree to pay $291 for formal arbitration?

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The client can dispute any and all payment made under the contract within 30 days after the Client was billed for the last milestone, so even if the 30 days have passed, all the client needs to do is fund $ 5 in Escrow and the entire contract becomes disputable again.

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A doubt. The client can finance another milestone to maintain the possibility of disputing the payment (it seems bad to me)

But the freelancer can reject that milestone, isn't it?
If so, this should stop his/her attempt, because that milestone does not "exists"
I do not know if I explained well 

Edited to correct. I had deleted a phrase when pasting 

[petra_r]

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Maria T wrote:

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A doubt. The client can finance another milestone to maintain the possibility of disputing the payment (it seems bad to me)hisyour attempt, because that milestone does not "exists"

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the second it is created, the milestone exists.

[m_terrazas]

Petra, I edited the post because, by pasting the text and making a correction, delete a part 😞

What I meant was:
"A doubt. The client can finance another milestone to maintain the possibility of disputing the payment (it seems bad to me)

But the freelancer can reject that milestone, isn't it?
If so, this should stop his/her attempt, because that milestone does not "exists"

I don't know if the answer will be the same, but to clarify.

Gracias!

[petra_r]

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Maria T wrote:

But the freelancer can reject that milestone, isn't it?

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How?

The second the milestone is created the client is billed. The deadline is 30 days from that moment. There is no button to accept or reject a milestone. The only way to "reject" it is to end the contract, which sends the money back to the client. But the fact that the client was charged is what matters.

[m_terrazas]

I will have misunderstood something.
I thought that if a customer creates a milestone and I don't agree with it, I could refuse it.
Sorry, my bad English 😞

Edited for add:

I found this from Bojan,
"The client needs to get a freelancer's consent before adding a new milestone."

[michael_skaggs]

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Maria T wrote:

Edited for add:

I found this from Bojan,
"The client needs to get a freelancer's consent before adding a new milestone."

---

Interesting. I have a couple of contracts going right now, and this doesn't seem to be the case. I get a notification when a new milestone is created, and it's immediately active. But there's no "do you want to accept this milestone?" option or anything like that. The new milestones just appear, I do the work, submit them, and get paid.

[m_terrazas]

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Michael S wrote:

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Maria T wrote:

Edited for add:

I found this from Bojan,
"The client needs to get a freelancer's consent before adding a new milestone."

---

Interesting. I have a couple of contracts going right now, and this doesn't seem to be the case. I get a notification when a new milestone is created, and it's immediately active. But there's no "do you want to accept this milestone?" option or anything like that. The new milestones just appear, I do the work, submit them, and get paid.

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That's how I'm working with a client too. That's why Bojan's statement is so strange to me.
My client is adding milestones and I have never been asked for my opinion.

Can any mod say something about it, please?

[VladimirG]

Hi Maria and others,

I followed up on the line that was quoted from Bojan's response and can confirm that, taken in context of the question he was responding to and the process he was describing, it is correct. He was referring to the scenario in which a Milestone has been added/updated by the client and clarifying that freelancer isn't required to proceed with working on the Milestone unless this was discussed in advance and they have agreed (gave their consent) for the Milestone to be created. You can find the full response here.

I will confirm that as for the technical side of the Milestone creation process, clients can create Milestones without requesting freelancers' permission but we do strongly advise discussing all contract updates with the freelancer before making any changes. As mentioned above, if any issues arise and can't be resolved amicably, freelancers aren't required to proceed working on the contract and can request payment and close it, depending on the contract's status. We have shared your feedback with our Product team but don't have any updates regarding possible changes to the process at this time.

[petra_r]

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Vladimir G wrote:As mentioned above, if any issues arise and can't be resolved amicably, freelancers aren't required to proceed working on the contract and can request payment and close it, depending on the contract's status.

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If a freelancer does not want to work on a milestone, why would they request payment? Closing a contract before a milestone has been released sends the money back to the client anyway.

You also very elegantly 😉 skirted around the fact that funding a random milestone on a contract that is outside the dispute-deadline instantly makes the **entire contract** disputable again, regardless of how the freelancer reacts to that random milestone, which is the whole point that is being discussed here. It is also a nasty loophole and can't possibly be "as intended!"

[VladimirG]

No elegance or skirting intended, Petra. It's down to a more profane reason of not noting that I've reached out to our Dispute team for clarification and will follow up with an update on the scenario you mentioned, which I personally haven't encountered or heard about before.

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Petra R wrote:

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Vladimir G wrote: As mentioned above, if any issues arise and can't be resolved amicably, freelancers aren't required to proceed working on the contract and can request payment and close it, depending on the contract's status.

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If a freelancer does not want to work on a milestone, why would they request payment? Closing a contract before a milestone has been released sends the money back to the client anyway.

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I was talking about the possible outcomes a freelancer can consider in a general contract-issue scenario, not only in this specific one with having an undiscussed Milestone created on a contract, in which requesting a payment is an option and one I captured in the scope of outcomes based on that reason, without going into motives and rationale for taking such an action. 

[wlyonsatl]

Hi, Vladimir.

Does the client's addition of a new milestone that the freelancer does not accept through the Upwork system nevertheless automatically extend the 30-day window for the client to request a refund for any or all payments made by the client on the project?

Thanks in advance for your usual clarity.

[petra_r]

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Will L wrote:

Does the client's addition of a new milestone that the freelancer does not accept through the Upwork system nevertheless automatically extend the 30-day window for the client to request a refund for any or all payments made by the client on the project?

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If not (and in my opinion it should not and is an unforeseen/unintended loophole), the wording of the dispute blurb in the legal part needs to be changed (again.)

As it is worded currently, it does.There is really no room for interpretation. The deadline is 30 days from the moment a client was billed for the last milestone. That may not be what was intended, but it is what it clearly says, hence it is (currently) binding.

It is all caused by the fact that it is currently still impossible for a freelancer to decline a milestone, which we have been asking for for years now.

I also think that every time a "legal" part of the terms are changed, there should be a notification or at least the date at the top changed.

[talhar30]

I can understand how fraustrating it could be, Just a pro tip that I learned from my experience, never end the contract from your side let the client end if he/she wants. Let me explain once the contract is ended after that the client and the freealncer have to give feedback. If any of them didn't gave the feedback wheather if its the client or the freelaner it wont be shown in your profile. Clear? In this case if you believe this client will be giving bad reamarks then a pro tip, do not give any feedback to him so the remarks wouldn't be shown in your profile. 

And client who changes there statement one after another cant be trusted, they have to be respective and pro efficient. Do not be depressed its just a start you will learn a lot in the journey of freelancing. Happy working 

[feed_my_eyes]

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Talha R wrote:

I can understand how fraustrating it could be, Just a pro tip that I learned from my experience, never end the contract from your side let the client end if he/she wants. Let me explain once the contract is ended after that the client and the freealncer have to give feedback. If any of them didn't gave the feedback wheather if its the client or the freelaner it wont be shown in your profile. Clear? In this case if you believe this client will be giving bad reamarks then a pro tip, do not give any feedback to him so the remarks wouldn't be shown in your profile. 

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Your advice is incorrect. Feedback will show after 14 days, even if one side hasn't given any feedback.

[talhar30]

Thankyou for clearing But in my case I also had the lil bit same situation, client didn't paid me and ended the contract. for some reason there wasn't any feedback. Its been 3 months uptil now an nothing has shoown up. 

[petra_r]

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Talha R wrote:

Thankyou for clearing But in my case I also had the lil bit same situation, client didn't paid me and ended the contract. for some reason there wasn't any feedback. Its been 3 months uptil now an nothing has shoown up. 

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That is because contracts with nothing (ever) paid NEVER show on a profile, they just "hurt" the JSS.

[6295f0a9]

Wow finished my first contract. It was an experience.... Its all a learning process. 

[639ad43b]

Hi All,

Hello my name is Jennifer and I oversee the Dispute team on Upwork. I’d like to first address the concern of the original poster on this thread, Syed Naqi, and note that our team is assisting him with his dispute. Syed Naqi, feel free to reply to the conversation in the dispute center if you have any questions.

Now while this is not the situation Syed Naqi is dealing with, I’d like to address the concerns Petra, Maria, and others expressed here.  Funding a new milestone on an active contract would make it eligible for Dispute Assistance, which includes the option of Arbitration. However, this scenario is very rare. 

We review and address each case individually. The team assists the client and the freelancer with refund requests or disputes to come to a mutual agreement. We also have systems in place to identify abuse of the dispute process as exemplified in the scenario Petra described (please see sections 8 and 9 of the Instructions.)

I know that dispute cases are discussed here in the forums frequently, but I want to flag that disputes are not that common on our platform. In fact, fewer than 3% of jobs turn into a dispute and even fewer than that go to arbitration.

Finally, as Vladimir has already noted, our product team has been working on ways to improve freelancer visibility and control over milestones. We will inform the Community if there are any further updates in that area such as an ability to accept/reject active milestones. Currently, freelancers can reject a milestone they didn’t agree to work on by closing the contract. 

-Jennifer

[petra_r]

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Thanks so much for taking the time to address this, Jennifer.

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Jennifer S wrote:

 Funding a new milestone on an active contract would make it eligible for Dispute Assistance, which includes the option of Arbitration. However, this scenario is very rare. 

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It may be rare, but it is real, and can't be as intended. For someone it happens to, the fact that it is "very rare" is no consolation at all.

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Jennifer S wrote:

We review and address each case individually. The team assists the client and the freelancer with refund requests or disputes to come to a mutual agreement. We also have systems in place to identify abuse of the dispute process as exemplified in the scenario Petra described

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Then maybe clients should not be advised that it is a valid way to be able to dispute.

... (No, I will not elaborate.)

As long as it is clearly stated in the legal blurb, it is a valid option.

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Jennifer S wrote:

I know that dispute cases are discussed here in the forums frequently, but I want to flag that disputes are not that common on our platform. In fact, fewer than 3% of jobs turn into a dispute and even fewer than that go to arbitration.

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Oh, no doubt about it. I only managed one in over 250 contracts and consider even that "one too many!" and I escaped unscathed. This is about the principle.

But again, it is confusing when the rules keep getting changed and what we thought we know turns out to be not correct, with no notice. I really think that could be improved upon (whilst we have your attention.) Maybe put a "last updated" date at the top and highlight last changes or something like that.

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Jennifer S wrote:

Finally, as Vladimir has already noted, our product team has been working on ways to improve freelancer visibility and control over milestones. 

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That would be great, and as long as the discussed new loophole exists, the ability to reject a milestone BEFORE the client is billed, is a much needed addition.

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Jennifer S wrote:

. Currently, freelancers can reject a milestone they didn’t agree to work on by closing the contract. 

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Indeed, but that does not change the fact that that's throwing out the baby with the bathwater and does not alter the fact that at that point, the client has been billed and it's too late to avert the potential damage from the loophole.

Thanks again for your time and attention.

[lenaellis]

Thanks Jennifer! I, as well as the Community appreciates it when we can have direct conversations with Upwork employees. 

Petra, I wanted to check with you on this comment here: 

"But again, it is confusing when the rules keep getting changed and what we thought we know turns out to be not correct, with no notice. I really think that could be improved upon (whilst we have your attention.) Maybe put a "last updated" date at the top and highlight last changes or something like that."

I am not familiar with any recent changes to our dispute process, can you elaborate on what you are referring to. 

-Lena

[mtngigi]

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Jennifer S wrote:

Hi All,

Hello my name is Jennifer and I oversee the Dispute team on Upwork. I’d like to first address the concern of the original poster on this thread, Syed Naqi, and note that our team is assisting him with his dispute. Syed Naqi, feel free to reply to the conversation in the dispute center if you have any questions.

Now while this is not the situation Syed Naqi is dealing with, I’d like to address the concerns Petra, Maria, and others expressed here.  Funding a new milestone on an active contract would make it eligible for Dispute Assistance, which includes the option of Arbitration. However, this scenario is very rare. 

We review and address each case individually. The team assists the client and the freelancer with refund requests or disputes to come to a mutual agreement. We also have systems in place to identify abuse of the dispute process as exemplified in the scenario Petra described (please see sections 8 and 9 of the Instructions.)

I know that dispute cases are discussed here in the forums frequently, but I want to flag that disputes are not that common on our platform. In fact, fewer than 3% of jobs turn into a dispute and even fewer than that go to arbitration.

Finally, as Vladimir has already noted, our product team has been working on ways to improve freelancer visibility and control over milestones. We will inform the Community if there are any further updates in that area such as an ability to accept/reject active milestones. Currently, freelancers can reject a milestone they didn’t agree to work on by closing the contract. 

-Jennifer

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I wonder what 3% of the millions of jobs adds up to? Don't want to do the math, but it's probably not an insignificant number.

[sreckom]

Can we get more information how this case end up? Did freelancer had to refund everything?  How we freelancers are protected in cases like this? It seems to me, looking at this particular case, that you can do everything by the book and still end up without work and money.

[petra_r]

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Srecko M wrote:

Can we get more information how this case end up? Did freelancer had to refund everything? 

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Only if Mediation fails and he loses or refuses arbitration.