Client Fraudster

yaroslav_yarko · ‎04-24-2019

I sent my client the files, but he turned a fraudster.

He already has a feedback in his profile from another freelancer that he did not pay all money (I didn`t see it, It appeared after we started our contract).

After receiving the files he confirmed that my animation is perfect and started to ask me for additional job. I was ready for all compromises from my side, but he started to ask for work even instead of his programmer. He threaten me with a bad feedback, started to found the faults in my work, ignores my answers, and blames me that I ignoring him.

In the end, it ended up, that there are only 4 seconds animation left to finish (of 18), and he takes away all the money for almost completed work.

I contacted Upwork support few days ago and ask to start the dispute procedure. But it still did not started. Today morning contacted again and still no answer.

Today after I warn him about Arbitrage procedure, he immediately blamed me and ended the contract and make the request of money.
But he already received the files and confirmed that it looks perfect week ago.
It is the first time I have client like this.

What should I do?

P.S. My work: **Edited for community guidelines**

petra_r · ‎04-24-2019

Yaroslav Y wrote:

In the end, it ended up, that there are only 4 seconds animation left to finish (of 18), and he takes away all the money for almost completed work.

What do you mean he"took away" the money? If the contract was properly funded the client can not remove the money.

If you want to dispute, simply dispute the request forthe return of the escrow funds.

How much money are we talking about? (How much was funded in Escrow? -Not how much was agreed...!)

You also need to remove the video from Youtube immediately. Until the dispute is resolved you can't publish it!

yaroslav_yarko · ‎04-24-2019

Hi Petra.

The amount of milestone is $560 for 11 animations. He took 8 animations and terminated the contract with requesting money.

He first confirmed that animation looks good, but when it came to pay, he suddenly began to make claims, accuse me in a bad work, ignored my clarification and eventually he terminated the contract, when I warn him about Arbitrage.

We worked a year. Early in small things he tried to "forget" $30-40, fed me promises of large contracts and in the result he wanted more and more discounts and finish with refusing to pay at all.

PS. Please make clear about youtube. Is it forbidden? If it against the rule, I will delete. It is just first time with me.

BojanS · ‎04-24-2019

Hi Yaroslav,

I checked and I see that your ticket has already been escalated to correct team. They will review and respond to the ticket within 2-3 business days.

Thank you for your patience.

~ Bojan

yaroslav_yarko · ‎04-24-2019

Hi Bojan.

I asked about dispute not only in this ticked. This ticket was the second. The first ticked I asked in the chating and I dont know about its result.

Should I now to make a dispute from the clients request of money? Or I should to wait for start of my dispute?

petra_r · ‎04-24-2019

How much currently is funded / in Escrow? That is all (!) you can dispute Is it the full $ 560 in Escrow?

Yes, obviously you should dispute the return of the Escrow funds if the work was done as agreed for the milestone.

yaroslav_yarko · ‎04-24-2019

Yes, $560 in Escrow.

This amount I trying to dispute from my tickets at Monday. When he understood it, he terminated the contract at all forcing me to prove that not him does not want to pay at all, but I did not perform the work.

Thank you for you help. Maybe it is hard for me to explain the situation. But it is not clear for me what it will be - dispute against the dispute?

petra_r · ‎04-24-2019

Yaroslav Y wrote:
Yes, $560 in Escrow.
This amount I trying to dispute from my tickets at Monday. When he understood it, he terminated the contract at all forcing me to prove that not him does not want to pay at all, but I did not perform the work.
Thank you for you help. Maybe it is hard for me to explain the situation. But it is not clear for me what it will be - dispute against the dispute?

Dispute the return of the Escrow funds. You have to choices. Approve the return of the Escrow funds or dispute it.

And take down the video.

yaroslav_yarko · ‎04-26-2019

Please help.

I don`t understand the role of Dispute Team.

I started this dispute because the fraud.

But first from start.

I work with client a year. My work fitted him, except endless asking about discounts, which I gave.

But I did not see the main thing which appeared during our work: there is a bad feedback in his profile from another freelancer, which said that Client did not pay all money.

And voila! I received the same. On the last milestone ($560 in Escrow) client decided to terminate the contract and take all money after receiving WORKING animation fbx-files.

Now about the job.

I should to make character humanoid animation for his game, which he build in Unity. I am animator. Not programmer and don`t work in Unity (about many time warned client). I make the animation in Cinema 4D. Animation works in Unity. But Client says that it is not and refers on his programmer. I know that my animation is perfect, I made a video and showed him that it works in Unity. But he answers that his programmer cant use it.

I even explained him and them, and made refers on Unity help, which took me 4 days, that humanoid animation for work correctly, during importing in Unity should be setted up as "humanoid" avatar (not "Generic" like made his programmer).

But he continue insist that it does not work. And demand me to make free extra work as his Unity programmer.

Maybe the key of problem is (but I dont know) that his programmer already tuned the rig and all next animations incorrect (as Generic avatar). Redoing all of it in correct way requires from him a lot of work. So it is easier to said that problem is in animation and not in tunning process.

But maybe the Client is from the very beginning fraudster and decided to not to pay last milestone. I dont know.

In the end he terminated contract and requested all money.

Now to main question.

I started the dispute with expectation that Upwork will help my rights!

But Upwork Dispute system requres "compromise" between two sides. Client demands free extra work of tunning files in Unity, otherwise he will not pay for my animation. I require to receive the money.

And now the extra main part!

Dispute member found compromise: for receiving my money I should "help client to get animation working".

Question: DOES THEY EVEN READ FREELANCERS ARGUMENTS?

What kind of "compromise" is this?

I showed video that animation works. I showed the screenshots chat where the client confirms that "your animation very good and I really like it, but programmer does not now how to use it".

In Dispute client cites the argument: yes, in his video animations works in Unity - than he (me) knows some secrect and should share it!

I cannot to attach the screenshot from a dispute, but he said that he 1) want money back 2) want to get the Source Files.

And he write to Dispute member: hahaha, as we can see, the person does not want to colaborate.

If I initiated the dispute, and subject of dispute is his fraud, should I dispute second time his request for money back? Because I asked this question in the dispute, but Dispute Member did not answered. And I see that noone want to protect my interests.

Can I even expect for Upwork and for protection of my work?

Or Upwork Dispute member will force me to free extra work, which is expressly prohibited by the Upwork rules and laws?

BojanS · ‎04-26-2019

Hi Yaroslav,

It looks like the client has requested a refund on Escrow funds. Please note that you have to respond to this request or the funds in Escrow will be released to the client. To learn more about this check out this Help Article.

If you reject the refund request our team will assist you in the mediation process and offer arbitration.

I've followed up with our team about your concern.

Thank you.

~ Bojan

yaroslav_yarko · ‎04-27-2019

Hi Bojan,

Thank you for your attention. Because it seemed like noone can help freelancer in this kind situations.

It seems like in milestones up to $500-600 dishonest client can safely deceive the freelancer. UPWORK HAS NO ANY MECHANISM TO REALLY SAVE THE FREELANCER. Client just need to say that "work looks good but works bad" (real quote) and then ask for extra work as a condition for releasing payment from an Escrow.

Thats all. Dispute member has to find "compromise" and has to help the client. After that I should to make him free extra work. In another way I should to pay $291 to Arbitrage for receive the $560. Yes, I ready to prove in any Arbitrage quality of my work, but why do I need it?

If I will not agree for a "compromise", that is also ok for client - he will receive the all money. If I will agree - he will receive the free work.

If I will go to Arbitrage and win, I will receive just a little part of money for my work (560-291).

Cool.

And for what in this case I pay to the Upwork 10-20% from any contract (when client pay only 2%)? I was pretty sure that if the money is in Escrow, then I totaly, 100%, protected. But no, Upwork in this case will limit himself to just some optional sentence.

Then it easier if Upwork will said me the clients home address and his real name and I will report to the police domiciliary. It is a joke but yeah, it looks like a real help in this case.

I thought that Upwrok Dispute Mechanism it is some experts which will look in the project-files and then authoritatively decide that my work good (or maybe bad - ok). But if it is just "go solve your problem by youself", this is just nothing.

Client is not stupid fraudster, no. He paid all the milestones before (all was for a small amount - up to $180). But decided not to pay the last big one. He never asked for a free work directly, always been polite, and never did anything for immidiately report about him (except his last message when he blackmail with a feedback). But he already did not pay all money for another guy. There are no mechanism on Upwork to prove that he realy does not have working animation from me.

Ok, text already is a big. I started it just because the Dispute Member already start to ask me question like "is it easy to make him what he want" (go to Unity and make the work of Unity programmer, when I am not Unity programmer and many time warned about it). So, yeah, this is the situation.

yaroslav_yarko · ‎04-29-2019

By the Upwork rules Upwork Mediator has to propose "a mutual, non-binding resolution based on the results of the review".

Upwork will first attempt to assist Client and Freelancer by reviewing the Dispute and proposing a m...

https://www.upwork.com/legal#fp

If the Client or Freelancer or both is do not agree for this resulition, after this Upwork passes to Arbitrage phase.

Mediator in my Dispute did not propose this resolution. Upwork missed this part.

Upwork failed to figure out? What is the Mediation it is?

What is the point then of this dispute? Why did I spend a week then and lay out the arguments? Why then did I hope for your help?

lysis10 · ‎04-29-2019

There's no point in laying out arguments. They don't decide. You and the client have to come to an agreement. If you can't agree, then you go to ARBITRATION (arbitrage is something different).

So figure out what you will take as a settlement unless you want to pay $291 to go to arbitration. You get the money back if the client refuses to pay.

prestonhunter · ‎04-29-2019

Yaroslav:

Jennifer is correct.

An Upwork "dispute" does NOT mean that "Upwork decides who is right or wrong."

If that is what you thought, it is understandable. Many people have thought the same thing.

But Upwork never actually claims that they do that as part of the dispute process. No matter how incredibly obvious your side of the story might seem to you, Upwork doesn't take sides in disputes. They just try to encourage the freelancer and client to work things out between themselves.

You ask what is the point of a dispute?

Sometimes it can result in a freelancer and client working things out. But, honestly, my policy is to always try to work things out with the client BEFORE anything goes to a dispute. So I have never actually gone to a dispute, even with over 200 jobs.

I try to be proactive in the way I work with clients (as a freelancer), and in the way I work with freelancers (as a client), so that disputes won't be needed.

yaroslav_yarko · ‎04-29-2019

Hi Preston.

Thank you for your answer, but it is really interesting to me how to be proactive when the client wants to scam you?)

He received the animation-files and confirmed that it looks perfect and he really likes it. But then he said that his programmer does not know how to use it in Unity and asked me to make his work. So I SOULD or to agree make a free extra job (pretty large), or he taking away the money.

I will not make free job even for 1 dollar after talking like this.

But.

I expected that the Upwork can determine the fact that client violate the rules and will protect me. But no. Upwork says that "we are neutral, but we trust words of scammer that animation does not work, and don`t trust in your words, that it works perfect, but if you dont agree with it, please spend the $291 to receive $560."

Ok, but where is the neutrality in it? His words was taken in attention. And my words - no (and not only words, I showed the video where the animation works in Unity, it just has to be correctly configured).

yaroslav_yarko · ‎04-29-2019

It 100% looks like Upwork can`t protect Freelancers. In any moment the scammer can to not pay to me. And I will have to pay $291 to achieve the truth.

Client just need to ask in Dispute for free extra work (which violates Upwork rules).

If Upwork Mediator will reject his demands, Upwork becomes not neutral

if Mediator will ask me to perform clients demands, Upwork will become an accomplice in crime.

So Mediator just violates the Upwork rules of Dispute and misses "non-binding resolution", passing dircetly to the Arbitrage phase.

I will call to Upwork head office, I will record the video on youtube and will show how the scammers can boldly scam the freelancers. If Upwork cant to save my work, there is no any sense in this.

petra_r · ‎04-29-2019

Yaroslav Y wrote:
It 100% looks like Upwork can`t protect Freelancers. In any moment the scammer can to not pay to me. And I will have to pay $291 to achieve the truth.

Ah, but if you pay $ 291, and the client does not (and a scammer will not!) you get your $ 291 back *AND* all the funds in Escrow.

Yaroslav Y wrote:

If Upwork Mediator will reject his demands, Upwork becomes not neutral
if Mediator will ask me to perform clients demands, Upwork will become an accomplice in crime.
So Mediator just violates the Upwork rules of Dispute and misses "non-binding resolution", passing dircetly to the Arbitrage phase.

Don't be so dramatic, there is no "crime" - there is simply a dispute... non-binding means a suggestion. It is utterly meaningless because it is non-binding.

If you want a binding decision, you need to opt for arbitration.

kat303 · ‎04-26-2019

When you start a dispute the first thing that happens is that an Upwork mediator will make RECOMMENDATIONS and/or SUGGESTIONS to you. This usually is in the form of, - "Talk to the client and see if both of you can come to an agreement for this problem." They might even recommend or suggest that you issue a refund, But that's all it is, - a suggestion. It is not binding. They can NOT make you issue a refund,. So, if no agreement can be made between the client and you then it's up to you to escalate it to the next phase. That's arbitration.

In arbitration the client and you Each pay an arbitration fee of $291. Upwork also pays that fee. An independent arbitrator will listen to both of you. Their decision IS binding. No matter who "wins" neither of you will get that $291 fee back. The only way you would get your fee back is if the client decided not to go into arbitration and doesn't pay their fee. Then you automatically get what's in escrow and your fee back. But that's only if the client doesn't pay their fee.

So, as I read this, you have started a dispute. Neither of you can come to a compromise. The client wants a refund. You need to reject/Dispute that request. Once you do that, the next step is to start arbitration and pay your share of the fee ($291).

nelson_paul-akha · ‎08-06-2019

Hi, please I need help from you. I started a fixed price ghostwriting contract with a client on June 13. The total was $600 but he put $100 in escrow. The deadline was July 31. I turned in the first draft on the 11th of July and he released the $100 to me and called it Milestone 1. Till now, he hasn't come back to me with feedback. On the 25th of July, he replied to say his team has been having problems and they would get back to me. But till now, he hasn't gotten back to me. I send him one message every week, he doesn't reply. I'm not feeling good about this right now because he already has the entire first draft of the work as well as my balance $500. Please what can I do?

petra_r · ‎08-07-2019

Nelson P wrote:
Hi, please I need help from you. I started a fixed price ghostwriting contract with a client on June 13. The total was $600 but he put $100 in escrow.
I'm not feeling good about this right now because he already has the entire first draft of the work as well as my balance $500.

There is no balance. The client seems to have little or no interest in carrying on the project and you were paid for milestone one.

If you handed over work beyond milestone 1,( $ 100 worth) that's on you. Was milestone 1 called "First draft?" If so, you were paid in full for milestone 1.

nelson_paul-akha · ‎08-07-2019

Thanks for your reply, Petra. Yes, Milestone 1 was called 'First Draft'. He created the milestone himself.

In June when that project started, I was barely a month old in Upwork. So, can you explain to me how I went wrong with this so I can learn?

During the interview, I was very skeptical about the $100 deposit in escrow. I thought it was too small and posed a risk in a case like what I am now experiencing, but the client talked about trust and I gave in. I was new then so I didn't want to ruffle any feathers.

Please, can you advise on what can be done? How do I get the project to end? It still shows Job in progress... and the client is unresponsive. Can't Upwork help me here?

Thank you.

petra_r · ‎08-07-2019

Nelson P wrote:
Thanks for your reply, Petra. Yes, Milestone 1 was called 'First Draft'. He created the milestone himself.

In June when that project started, I was barely a month old in Upwork. So, can you explain to me how I went wrong with this so I can learn?

You did a milestone called first draft for $ 100. The client got a first draft for $ 100. That's it.

You went wrong when you agreed to do $ 600 worth of work for $ 100. The client even owns the first draft because it was paid for in full...

Nelson P wrote:
Please, can you advise on what can be done? How do I get the project to end? It still shows Job in progress... and the client is unresponsive.

You can just end the contract yourself, but there is neither any rush nor any need. You can just leave it be for the minute, it is neither hurting you nor doing you any good.

Nelson P wrote:
Can't Upwork help me here?

Help you with what? Nothing really to be done there.

nelson_paul-akha · ‎08-07-2019

Thank you so much for this helpful response.

During discussions, I proposed to break the job into milestones of chapters. He refused and talked about trust and I took the plunge. So I understand what you mean.

We live and learn.

Thank you once again.