Client asking for a refund of all bonuses

[shoaibaslam450]

Hello!

I was working with my Upwork client for more than 14 months in UK and the platform they provided us for work was strictly only for UK and no VPN or anything can allow us to work outside UK. I formed a whole team and joined them. They stated in the contract that if we ever worked outside UK by usig a VPN, we will be banned from their platform and will not be paid.

I told them I was getting married in this month and I went to Pakistan for it. When I tried working there, and their platform was working there without any VPN. I told them it was working there and I worked for a couple days there. They told me to stop working untill I get back in UK. The owner of the platform (the client of my Upwork client) did not know about it and they banned us for working outside UK.

We went back to UK. After it, my Upwork client kept asking me to prove that I was back in UK by asking personal questions to which I replied it is against Upwork policy, but they kept insisting and said they have asked Upwork about it and Upwork allowed it. I did not receive any info from Upwork regarding this. They said their client say I was lying. Then, they kept asking me to send them photos of me with a hand on my watch with current time and the street signs near me from UK. I sent them a video in which I followed their instructions but did not show my face (following Upwork privacy policies). They refused to beleive me and kept harassing me to say that I am in Pakistan (so that they could sue me), to which I kept trying make them beleive me.  I had joined their Slack channel at the start of the contract.  We have been communicating there from the start. They even threatened me on Slack by sending me my Pakistan address and said their client would sue me and they would give negative feedback if I don't say on Upwork that I am not in UK.
They used to add $5 in Escrow and sent our earned payment every month via bonus and in the end of the contract, we refund that $5 and they propose a new contract, and same conditions gets followed.

When I did not admit to what they were trying to ask, they ended the contract with a negative review and been sending me requests to refund all the payments I have recieved over 14 months. I have sent their Escrow $5 to them when the contract ended. There is no option to reject the other refund requests so I am not replying to their other refund requests of the bonus payments which we earned by honest work.
Is this gonna be bad for me if I don't reply to their requests?

[martina_plaschka]

Yeah this is gonna be bad. 

There is no upwork policy that you can't show your face next to Big Ben or Buckingham Palace, why did you not fulfill this very small request to win back the client's trust? The client knows your face already. What's the problem there? What kind of personal questions? To keep 100k, I would tell the client my favorite soup if that's important to him. 

But I would've never accepted these huge payments in bonuses, knowing they are not payment protected. You violated a stipulation that was very important to the client. I don't know why you did that. 

Why did you change your location to Pakistan if you are not there? This is a violation of upwork ToS. A client can't tell you to fake your location, ever, if this is what happened. 

[ericaandrews · Accepted solution]

If you are Top Rated Plus (right now), the very first thing you should do is send a request to Upwork to have that feedback REMOVED.  https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/219801228-Feedback-Removal

2nd: If the client has already left a bad review and tried to damage your reputation, there's no point in you 'refunding' them anything at this point.  They could go to arbitration through Upwork, etc, but to the best of my knowledge is an Upwork Terms of Service violation for a client to try to 'sue' a freelancer to recoup money outside of Upwork or flor a freelancer to try to 'sue' a client directly to recover payment outside of Upwork. They'd basically be violating their contract with Upwork by doing that. At this point, your best bet is to put in the request to Upwork to have the feedback removed and then block the client from further contacting you and 'threatening' you.  The more you 'engage' or 'argue' with them, the more ridiculous and extreme their behavior will become.  Get the feedback removed, block the client, keep your money, and move on.

[martina_plaschka]

It does not violate any upwork ToS to take legal action against a client/freelancer if the party violated a stipulation the contract. Of course every party is always free to pursue legal action against the other party, upwork will never disallow that. 

[tlsanders]

I think you're wrong. I can't check because the TOS page is STILL broken, but as I recall Upwork's TOS bind freelancers and clients to use only the arbitration process through Upwork. That is common when arbitration services are provided. But, that provision may only apply to clients/freelancers in the U.S. And, again, I'm not able to verify the language since the terms of service haven't been available for a while. 

[martina_plaschka]

I'll never be able to find it, but someone recently reported that support had told them they can pursue the client outside of upwork if he refuses to pay. Upwork can't forbid anyone to sue each other when they have legal grounds for a civil matter, or report a criminal matter. 

[chakabudatatenda]

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CJ A wrote:

They could go to arbitration through Upwork, etc, but to the best of my knowledge is an Upwork Terms of Service violation for a client to try to 'sue' a freelancer to recoup money outside of Upwork or flor a freelancer to try to 'sue' a client directly to recover payment outside of Upwork. 

---

OP was paid on Upwork using the bonus option. Also OP seems to be the one who violated the contract he had with his client by working in Pakistan when he was told not to. 

[feed_my_eyes]

The OP violated the contract terms - even assuming that he was ever working from the UK in the first place, which I doubt - and if the client submitted an official refund request, he can't solve the problem just by blocking the client. He'll probably lose if it goes to arbitration.

[shoaibaslam450]

Yes, I am Top Rated Plus. Thanks for the info! Kindly read my latest replies for further clarification.

[fdynasty]

"They used to add $5 in Escrow and sent our earned payment every month via bonus and in the end of the contract, we refund that $5 and they propose a new contract, and same conditions gets followed."

This is totally against upwork policy and this is what scammers do, it's amazing you went undetected from all this time.

[lysis10]

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Azam R wrote:

"They used to add $5 in Escrow and sent our earned payment every month via bonus and in the end of the contract, we refund that $5 and they propose a new contract, and same conditions gets followed."

This is totally against upwork policy and this is what scammers do, it's amazing you went undetected from all this time.

---

No it's not. It's obvious OP  and the farmer are lying to the client and the farmer got an earful. OP's profile says Pakistan, so he isn't lying on Upwork but I think it's pretty clear the farmer lied to the client and that's why the farmer now wants their money back because most likely their client wants their money back.

This is why you have to be very smart with what you do with farmers.

eta: Revising this because the job post clearly says nobody outside the UK, and I find it hard to believe the farmer would hire a guy whose profile says he's in Pakistan. Why are you visiting if you live there? OP, did you change your location before posting here? Cuz if so I feel a NO REASON coming on.

The only thing you got going for you is it's unlikely the farmer will risk his account with a chargeback.

[tlsanders]

This thread is full of fantastical ideas about Upwork policy. It's certainly a poor business decision to work on the basis OP described, but what policy do you believe it violates? 

[feed_my_eyes]

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Muhammad Shoaib A wrote:

Hello!

I was working with my Upwork client for more than 14 months in UK and the platform they provided us for work was strictly only for UK and no VPN or anything can allow us to work outside UK. I formed a whole team and joined them. They stated in the contract that if we ever worked outside UK by usig a VPN, we will be banned from their platform and will not be paid.

I told them I was getting married in this month and I went to Pakistan for it. When I tried working there, and their platform was working there without any VPN. I told them it was working there and I worked for a couple days there. 

---

If you were told that you strictly couldn't work anywhere other than the UK and that you'd be banned if you did, then why did you even try to work from Pakistan? Then you tried to BS them by saying that Upwork doesn't allow you to show your face, even though there's obviously no such policy in existence. Of course the client doesn't trust you now. There's nothing to stop them from asking for a refund after you violated the terms of your agreement; at the very least, you can expect a bad review.

[chakabudatatenda]

"They stated in the contract that if we ever worked outside UK by usig a VPN, we will be banned from their platform and will not be paid. I told them I was getting married in this month and I went to Pakistan for it. When I tried working there, and their platform was working there"

Why did you work in Pakistan when you were explicitly told not to though? 
This sounds like a tricky situation also with using bonus payments rather than accurate milestones. Let's hope for the best and please keep us (me rather) updated. 

[77cda6fa]

Sounds like you were trying to pull a scam on your client I hope you get banned off this platform for the nonsense!

[NikolaS]

Hi Muhammad,

It's up to the client and the freelancer to discuss and establish the terms of their contract. Provided they don't violate Upwork's Terms of Service.

If issues arise, the client and the freelancer may communicate and resolve them. The client has an option to request a refund and the freelancer may choose to issue it or not. In some cases, they may qualify for dispute assistance. If they need any additional assistance with their specific case and the options they have, they can reach out to support.

[shoaibaslam450]

Thanks, Nikola.

I have returned the amount which I had in Escrow. The refunds that the client is asking for are all of the monthly payments that I have received for my work over my contract. The work which they had seen, checked and approved every month, the work with which they had no problem at all, and then paid me for it.

And even according to their Upwork contract, if I ever work outside Upwork, they would ban me I would not be paid for it. So, they banned me and won't pay me for this month in which I violated the term. How could they ask for all of my previously righteously earned payments?

[77cda6fa]

What you are not understanding is you lied about your location in the onset the client is entitled to a total refund of the amount paid because you violated the terms of the contract.  Does not matter if the work was completed at this point the client has no reason to trust you anymore.  They are 100% in the right to demand repayment for the following reasons.

1 You lied about your location

2 They can now not trust the work you completed because you lied

3 You compromised your clients security by being a liar.

[bobafett999]

Which part of the sentence you have trouble comprehending," ...UK and the platform they provided us for work was strictly only for UK and no VPN or anything can allow us to work outside UK"?

Simple you worked outside of UK from Pakistan.  Buyer has every right to punish you.  The buyer may be working on sensitive subject that required him to stipulate the clause.  Because of your little lies the buyer can get in to big trouble.

You are based in Pakistan.  Why did you travel from Pakistan to Pakistan?

[martina_plaschka]

You overlooked that the client forced him to change his location to Pakistan, while he lives in the UK, which of course is a thing clients do. 

[bobafett999]

Martina:  My head hurts re-readig OP's first message!

[christopherbudde]

I have to wonder how Upwork could go about refunding 120k? If the OP has a credit card on file I'm sure the limit is well less that that figure. Also, if the client used any of the product, that sounds like acceptance too me. Quite a can of worms!

[shoaibaslam450]

Thank you all for your attention to the topic.

(To the question if I was in the UK or not): First of all, everyone should know that you cannot change your location just only if you want to. You get a notification on your profile in which Upwork asks you to verify your location as soon as possible or you get banned or something. So, keeping that into consideration, my client and everyone should know that when I got the project which required me to be in the UK, I must have verified it and my client should have seen my location, otherwise I would not have gotten the project.

Secondly, why didn't everyone take into consideration why wouldn't a client ban me whom he had asked to be in the UK but I had my profile location set to be in Pakistan? Why did not they block me 14 months ago? Did they not see my location whenever they were sending me payments? I will tell you why! That is because I had already told my client that I wanted to send my payments to my family bank account in Pakistan, and for that, I must change my location to Pakistan. They and Upwork had no problem with it.

(To the question why didn't I show them my face in the video even if they had seen it already on Upwork?): I did not know that I could work outside the UK. When I was outside, the work should not have been there and should not have started, but somehow, my project was working. When my client asked me about my location and why was I able to work, and did not believe me when I said it has been working outside the UK, they asked me to prove it and I sent them a video without showing my face that I was able to work without any VPN. They were surprised but asked me not to work until I get back. But later, they told Upwork that I was a fraud and they have video proof that I am working from Pakistan. That is why I did not send them any more of my personal information.

(To the question why we use bonuses as our monthly payments): We used it because we were paid according to our monthly work amount, our accuracy, and speed. For each individual, it was different. That is why, after evaluating our work on a daily and monthly basis, we were paid accordingly via the bonus system.

[77cda6fa]

You do not have to change your location to send money to a bank account who told you that nonsense?
Again  it sounds like you were trying to scam the client in to thinking you were in the UK when in fact you were not. 
In this case if it turns out that you were lieing to the client and claiming you were in the UK when in fact you were not they are entitled to dispute the contract.  
You violated the terms of UPWORK by communcating outside of upwork never do this. If a client tries to make you do this refuse and report it to upwork imeadeatly. This not only covers you but covers them when shady folk try to pull fast ones.

[shoaibaslam450]

 When you set your profile to UK, you are asked for the Sort Code of your bank. Pakistani banks don't provide us with Sort Codes, instead, they use Swift Code. If we want to attach a Pakistan bank account, we have to change and verify our location. So, if I had set my location to UK, I would not have been able to attach a Pakistani bank account.

And also, I mentioned that no one can change their location and still work without verifying their location. Why aren't you getting that no one can fake their location on Upwork?

[martina_plaschka]

1. You and the group of people you hired to work on this contract live in the UK. You received all payments to a bank account in Pakistan. You had to pay them to their UK bank accounts, losing money for the currency conversion. 

2. What did you live off in the UK when all your money is in Pakistan? Again, losing money on the conversion.

3. Your country was set to Pakistan from the start. But you said the client forced you to change your country to Pakistan when he found out you worked from Pakistan at the end of the contract. You should not let anybody force you to change your location, that violates ToS. Upwork can see when you changed your location, they will make their own determination. I suggest you immediately change it back to where you actually reside in the UK because putting a false location can get you suspended. 

4. It is absolutely not against ToS to confirm to the client where you live by a live-chat where you walk around London or whereever. The client can easily confirm that it's not against ToS to ask something like that. You should not have resisted this request. If I were you, I would immediately produce such a video that confirms that you are now in the UK. 

[77cda6fa]

You are lieing so bad you are counterdicting yourself here bud
1 You still lied
2 You lied about your location in the onset then refused to provide location proof. 

So what makes no sense here is sending money to a Pakistan bank account if you live in the UK as you claim just send it to the UK bank acount then deposit the money from there to the Pakistan bank account.  Your claim makes 0 sense and sounds to me like you were trying to pull a fast one on your client who had clear rules about location.

[6bfcdaf8]

" That is because I had already told my client that I wanted to send my payments to my family bank account in Pakistan, and for that, I must change my location to Pakistan. They and Upwork had no problem with it. "

Well you just confessed lying to upwork about your location which probably will get you banned.

I'm sorry to inform you that, you could have built the same (if not more) revenues by being honest and truthful as well. If you learn this, it will be your biggest gain from this experience in my opinion

[shoaibaslam450]

I did not know if you change your location just to withdraw your payments in your other account, you could get in trouble. I will try to clarify this with Upwork. Thanks for pointing this out!

[spectralua]

Yep, it is ToS violation. You must keep only actual location at Upwork profile. Going to UK - set UK asap.

[martina_plaschka]

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Muhammad Shoaib A wrote:

I did not know if you change your location just to withdraw your payments in your other account, you could get in trouble. I will try to clarify this with Upwork. Thanks for pointing this out!

---

And also, I mentioned that no one can change their location and still work without verifying their location. Why aren't you getting that no one can fake their location on Upwork?

Is what you said. 

[77cda6fa]

Looks like he edited his orignal post surprise surprise must not of liked that we are on the clients side with this.

[bobafett999]

  You made 120k, it is lot of money in Pakistan.  Retire and enjoy. 

[tanujakolhapure]

Hi Muhammad, 

Read your full post. It's quite painful that you are facing such issues.

* Did the client provided with a "Yes" to work on the platform, while you were in Pakistan.

* You started working in pakistan and later informed the client that the platform is working without a VPN in Pakistan.

* Sending money in Pakistan is totally your personal issue, the client has nothing to do with this, whatever you have earned on Upwork you should visit your nearby bank location and transfer it to your family bank in Pakistan. There are also other options to transfer money to your family bank account in Pakistan.

* You should have asked the client first, can I use your platform in Pakistan, after a yes you should have started the platform, Until you should have paused. As soon as you have been logged into the platform in Pakistan, your client must have received a notification of Pakistan's IP address, that is the reason they were using VPN.

* Which bank account is linked with your Upwork profile, is it from Pakistan or UK?

* I am also not getting the point that to transfer money in your bank account you need to change the location on Upwork profile? Even if you travel to the UK or Pakistan?

* Every freelancer has an portrait on Upwork profile which is easily viewable to client's, Client was just asking for your live location which is not against the Terms of Upwork. If you would have showed your face in your video, all of the stuff happened could be ignored.

* Earning $120K last year on Upwork means you are already a millionarie in Pakistan.

* Even if you have hired other professionals, you must have made a good profit.

As the client pay's you, the client has full authority to monitor you, while working on their platforms.

Hope this info may be useful for your future projects.

Thanks,

Tanuja

[77cda6fa]

What it reads to me is
UPWORKER was using a VPN to trick client into thinkinking they were in the UK
Someone slipped up and forgot to log on to the vpn then upworker came up with the excuse they were just visiting Pakistan which they then changed story to just changed location so money would go to a Pakistan bank and the client caught on.  When they asked for simple video proof that client was in the UK Upworker refused client ended contract and now wants a refund based on the fact the UPWORKER lied in the onset. 

[bobafett999]

Oly him and his God knows what really happened.  Now he is just upset that the gravy train has stopped.

[elisa_b]

The plot thickened so much that I got lost 😄

[martina_plaschka]

I'm happy to recap it for you:

Never misrepresent your location, it will end very badly if your location is a prerequisite for the job. 

I hope this is a learning moment for other freelancers who apply fluidity to the rules they signed up for. 

[NikolaS]

Hi All, 

We've been closely following this conversation and would like to thank participants for their valuable input. Since the arguments have been exhausted and the conversation is moving into an unproductive direction, we will be closing the thread.

Muhammad,

If you have further questions or you need further assistance, feel free to continue communication with our team via your support ticket.