May 14, 2021 07:38:24 AM by M A
Jan 15, 2022 06:06:42 PM by Claudia Z
Paul T wrote:If a client is a scammer then he will tell to freelancer a story that the freelancer wants to hear. And there is no way for freelancers to know if it was truth or not.
True, but the OP choose to believe the client story, whatever that was. The OP sided with the client.
The client and freelancer met in person, the client isn't an unknown, a faceless person behind a computer.
Jan 15, 2022 09:50:21 PM by Petra R
Paul T wrote:No problem, then UW just needs to remove the badge "Payment verified" in case the credentials don't much for 100%, you know, just to avoid any possible misunderstanding or misinterpretation and add something like " Payments methods under different credentials. Be advised, chargeback is possible" .
Chargebacks are, by definition, ALWAYS a possibility, regardless of the credentials.
Jan 16, 2022 08:28:39 AM by Paul T
Petra R wrote:
Paul T wrote:No problem, then UW just needs to remove the badge "Payment verified" in case the credentials don't much for 100%, you know, just to avoid any possible misunderstanding or misinterpretation and add something like " Payments methods under different credentials. Be advised, chargeback is possible" .
Chargebacks are, by definition, ALWAYS a possibility, regardless of the credentials.
Yes, exactly.
But there would be a different story for all 3 parties involved if a client used his own credit card, represented himself, decided to initiate a chargeback by himself as well.
So, I think it's a good idea to mark the clients who represent 3rd party or use the payments methods that are not under their credentials. It would help freelancers to avoid the situations like this one or many similar which we can see right on this forum.
Jan 16, 2022 10:35:50 AM by Claudia Z
Paul T wrote:
Petra R wrote:
Paul T wrote:No problem, then UW just needs to remove the badge "Payment verified" in case the credentials don't much for 100%, you know, just to avoid any possible misunderstanding or misinterpretation and add something like " Payments methods under different credentials. Be advised, chargeback is possible" .
Chargebacks are, by definition, ALWAYS a possibility, regardless of the credentials.
Yes, exactly.
But there would be a different story for all 3 parties involved if a client used his own credit card, represented himself, decided to initiate a chargeback by himself as well.
So, I think it's a good idea to mark the clients who represent 3rd party or use the payments methods that are not under their credentials. It would help freelancers to avoid the situations like this one or many similar which we can see right on this forum.
"Upwork offers the Site and Site Services for your business purposes only and not for personal, household, or consumer use. To register for an Account or use the Site and Site Services, you must, and hereby represent that you: (a) are an employee or agent of and authorized to act for and bind an independent business (whether it be as a self-employed individual/sole proprietor or as a corporation, limited liability company, or other entity); (b) will use the Site and Site Services for business purposes only; ....."
https://www.upwork.com/legal#accounteligibility
"While Upwork may provide certain badges on Freelancer or Client profiles, such badges are not a guarantee or warranty of quality or ability or willingness of the badged Freelancer or Client to complete a Service Contract and is not a guarantee of any kind, including, the quality of Freelancer Services or Client Project."
Jan 14, 2022 05:08:47 AM Edited Jan 14, 2022 06:24:40 AM by Christine A
Claudia Z wrote:Don't you think there should be some consequences? What if a freelancer notices some red flags but continue working thinking oh this is Upwork's responsibility, I'll get paid regardless.
Yes, and I've even seen some freelancers saying exactly this - that they thought a client seemed dodgy, but what the hell, Upwork will cover the payment, so why not go ahead anyway?
I started out working on Elance, which had no escrow, no payment protection and no dispute/arbitration process; if a client didn't pay you, it was between you and the client. It's a continuing source of astonishment to me that Upwork offers payment protection of any kind, yet all you see in the forum are complaints that manual time isn't covered, or promises from the client aren't covered, or even attempts at blatant scams on the freelancer's part aren't covered ("I purchased bitcoin for a client and Upwork won't pay me back!" and "I tracked time at 400 times my usual rate, and Upwork won't cover it!"). Instead of being grateful that Upwork offers any protection at all, it seems to have led to an expectation that they'll cover you no matter what happens.
I certainly don't like to see freelancers getting ripped off after working hard on a project, but on the other hand, it's open to widespread abuse, and I don't see how Upwork can sustain this and ever make a profit.
Jan 14, 2022 04:15:09 AM by Rafael M
I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a very prestigious lawyer, and he said that this is a Police matter.
Allegedly, the client has committed fraud, and he's the only one that should be held responsible for refunding MA/Upwork.
Of course, it might be different in Switzerland (I'm from Brazil), but if MA has access to the client's personal information, he should go to the police and press charges against him.
Sometimes a little bit of police pressure works well to solve things like this. The client might very well decide to pay up his debt instead of getting in trouble with the law.
Jan 14, 2022 06:13:42 AM Edited Jan 14, 2022 06:15:01 AM by Preston H
re: "I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a very prestigious lawyer, and he said that this is a Police matter."
I REALLY THINK it would depend on the police department, and even the individual police officer.
I am certain that many police departments generally and many police officers specifically would flat out tell you that this is not something they handle, that it is a civil matter and you need to talk to an attorney. Or they might tell you that matters such as this are handled by a regulatory agency.
These are two DIFFERENT questions:
- Is this a police matter on Switzerland?
- Is this a police matter in my local jurisdiction?
The answer is not necessarily the same for everyone on the world.
re, "Of course, it might be different in Switzerland (I'm from Brazil)"
I agree.
Jan 15, 2022 11:13:13 AM Edited Jan 15, 2022 12:15:32 PM by Claudia Z
Preston H wrote:re: "I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a very prestigious lawyer, and he said that this is a Police matter."
I am certain that many police departments generally and many police officers specifically would flat out tell you that this is not something they handle, that it is a civil matter and you need to talk to an attorney. Or they might tell you that matters such as this are handled by a regulatory agency.
To achieve a successful recovery or increase the chances in a civil lawsuit involving fraud elements, such is preceded by criminal proceedings.
In a civil lawsuit the court may consider that the money paid to the freelancer were part of a possibly fraudulent activity, it would require extensive process discovery, remedies... the obligation to repay the chargeback may remain the responsibility of the freelancer ... the court may review the work that has been done, the specifics of the contract, assess compensation ... depending on how the client defends in court, the compensation may be much lower than the actual amount the freelancer has to return.
Jan 15, 2022 05:37:39 PM by Tom Z
Rafael M wrote:I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a very prestigious lawyer, and he said that this is a Police matter.
Allegedly, the client has committed fraud, and he's the only one that should be held responsible for refunding MA/Upwork.
Of course, it might be different in Switzerland (I'm from Brazil), but if MA has access to the client's personal information, he should go to the police and press charges against him.
Sometimes a little bit of police pressure works well to solve things like this. The client might very well decide to pay up his debt instead of getting in trouble with the law.
I don't know the laws in Swiss, but even if the police decides to investigate "fraud" --- this could take months, and the fact that the client's bank already approved the chargeback, and the Upwork's bank also agreed to the chargeback, I don't think there's much for police to investigate. Even if they did found him guilty of fraud, it will be months before M A gets notified, appear in court to testify against his client, and the judge's sentencing may not fully recover the $12k (restitution), in fact the judge may find your client not guilty if he hires a good lawyer.
I think it's a big waste of time man. Pay back Upwork, continue to work, you'll earn the $12k back soon, and just write off the $12k as business loss in your taxes.
Jan 14, 2022 04:45:16 AM Edited Jan 15, 2022 04:31:28 AM by Will L
But, Petra, Upwork actually does make it so that a freelancer CAN have it both ways, by paying Upwork's fees, adhering to certain procedures (including utilizing TimeTracker effectively) and not expecting protection beyond $2,500 in lifetime protection for each client.
Jan 15, 2022 05:48:30 PM by Tom Z
For those of you wondering, I googled... Raiffeisen Bank, a swiss bank, not sure if that's the bank, but anyways - that bank can allow bank clients charge back up to 540 days from the time of each transaction... That's... he can file a charge back on you every 1.5 years. And note, at the time of each transaction. So... Basically there's the loop hole. I'm glad you stopped working for that guy, theoretically if Upwork didn't notify you of the charge backs, you could've worked indefinitely for that guy and one day say after 10 years, you realized oh crap.
Jan 15, 2022 09:57:37 PM Edited Jan 15, 2022 10:30:16 PM by Petra R
Tom Z wrote:That's... he can file a charge back on you every 1.5 years.
No, that's not what it means. It means he can file a chargeback for all transactions that go back no further than 540 days. This was the case here. There were many more transactions (the client paid the OP over $38k altogether) which fell outside the limit.
Let's not forget that all this happened back in April/May last year.
Tom Z wrote:I'm glad you stopped working for that guy, theoretically if Upwork didn't notify you of the charge backs, you could've worked indefinitely for that guy and one day say after 10 years, you realized oh crap.
He didn't have a choice. The client's account was suspended. And the card-holder could only ever charge-back transactions that happened a maximum of 540 days ago.
Jan 18, 2022 09:12:37 AM by Andrea G
Hi all,
This thread has been closed from further replies due to its size and the arguments being exhausted. I'd like to thank all participants for their valuable input.
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