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al-anani
Community Member

Client chargeback request of $12,500 after one year.

Hi!

I worked for a client a year ago, and we finished alot of work together with different people creating websites, etc.

I used to record all hours manually as they’re mostly calls and communication, as I’m a project manager.

Now, one year later, Upwork is sending me an email that the bank is requesting a chargeback of more than $12,500 from my contract one year ago.

Then a few more freelancers who used to work with the same client contacted me and told me Upwork informed them with the same thing but with different amounts. I have a feeling that this client was a fraud or using another person’s account, or went broke.

Whatever the reason is, doesn’t matter. Upwork now is asking for proof of my work, which I sent, to TRY to tell the bank that those charges were done for freelancers who actually worked on something. But they also said the final decision will be the bank’s. So I feel my odds are not too great.

I contacted this client and he informed me he didnt do any chargebacks, validating my theory abit more that he is a fraud or broke.

The problem is, Upwork is freezing my withdrawals from my account till I pay the $12,560.

I do not have this amount, and I do not know what to do.

All of this is because according to Upwork, I did not log in the hours with their software and did it manually instead.

This is demotivating me from this platform after 3 years full time of working on it and being Top Rated Plus.

If anyone has any advice, please share.

Also a couple of questions, what if I refuse to pay even after the bank decided that they want the money back, does that put me in a bad legal position or could only lead to my account being banned?

If my theory is proven correct and this client was actually using another person’s card, shouldn’t that put Upwork the least bit accountable for anything?

The process of speaking to a bank could take 45 days, so I’ll just sit and do nothing till then.

Kindly advise,
Thanks,
Al
137 REPLIES 137

It's a wild accusation there, Petra. In all cases, I've informed Upwork that I would love to cooperate in however matter they want. I don't need to provide Upwork with his name. (They already have it with his ID because of the verification, and if not, I have his information from our work and would love to help them out.)

 

I could not care less whether Upwork "lets me off" or not. That's up to them to decide. I only intend to inform what happened to me to other people.

 

Thank you very much!

Al


M A wrote:

He lives in Zurich, Christine. He deals with very very wealthy clients. To them, a $30k annual deduction from their credit card, is equivalent to a $3 annual deduction from yours. 


It still seems bizarre to me. If it was a one-time deduction, I could maybe see how someone could miss that, but several questionable payments on every statement (as you say that he worked with more than one freelancer)? I would definitely notice, even if it was only pocket change to me. Don't these rich guys have accountants? 

He did work with several freelancers on projects that included me. They even reached out for me later and told me that Upwork is asking them for a chargeback of different amounts. None was actually as big as mine.

al-anani
Community Member

Additionally, Petra, I thank you for all your comments here. In my medium article, I was actually looking for people to show me other points of view, and I'm very thankful for you indicating in some messages that situation.

 

You have to be aware that Upwork made me who I am today. I couldn't have been more thankful for everything they've done. This is why, as you said, you're believing I'm directing my anger towards Upwork, truth is, it's a disappointment. The only way Upwork would keep improving is by us, the freelancers, pinpointing such problems.

 

If we're not to question whether the terms make sense, then we'll never improve them. Eventually, wherever this goes, I'm satisfied. If Upwork decides to remain dormant, I will seek legal advice towards the client. I will eventually be forced to pay back the $12.5k one way or another. I will, however, learn from this.

Most importantly, I will spread this so that that person who has three kids going to college, would put this in her/his calculation before quitting his job and freelancing on a platform.

Thanks a million,
Al

🤦🏻‍ I give up trying to have a conversation with you, Petra. It's a hopeless case.

 

Good luck!

wlyonsatl
Community Member

IEdited)

 

M A,

 

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles in this. And I hope you have found or will find some positive resolution. 

 

I have benefitted from Upwork's payment protection on hourly projects from time to time, for which I am always grateful and highly recommend other freelancers use this aspect of Upwork's rules properly in order to protect themselves.

 

But we repeatedly see posts on this board regarding the problems other freelancers have faced by using manual hours rather than TimeTracker, which is too often a very bad idea (though it apparently works fine for many experienced freelancers). And if every freelancer were asked what is the project lifetime limit to Upwork's hourly projects payment protection, too few would know the answer is $2,500.

We'll no doubt hear voices here (as already elsewhere on this board) telling us that freelancers should know in great detail all of the details of Upwork's voluminous documentation, including all periodic changes. That is no doubt true, but Upwork should also go the extra step on such an important element of its services to freelancers to refer in its documents to "limited" payment protections, putting all freelancers on notice that Upwork is just a channel for payments from clients that will step in with paying freelancers out of its own pocket only under very specific circumstances. All freelancers should be aware there is no blanket "payment protection" for any contract through Upwork.

 

And if Upwork still requires that new freelancers take some sort of quiz about how Upwork works, the limits to these specific aspects of Upwork’s "payment protection" - payments for manual hours are never protected and there is a lifetime limit to the $ amount of protection for all projects - should be part of the tested curriculum.

 

Good luck with your own resolution to this problem.

claudiacezy
Community Member

You were paid money that possibly came from a fraudelent activity (unauthorized use of a credit card). You can't keep the money from such activities. The money has to be returned...


What is exceptional in this situation is that you knew the client personally, residing in the same city ... you know the name, the address. You have enough details to pursue an action.


You can file with the authorities a criminal complaint against the client and declare that you want to become a party in the criminal proceedings as a civil claimant. As a foreigner you can ask for a traslator or interpreter, they might even appoint a lawyer from the office. However, Robin Hood and billionaire companies that can take the loss raises questions. Get your facts straight.


Claudia Z wrote:

You were paid money that possibly came from a fraudelent activity (unauthorized use of a credit card). You can't keep the money from such activities. The money has to be returned...


Here's the thing though: The money HAS been returned. The second that chargeback happened, the money was returned. It was taken out of Upwork's account and they subsequently couldn't defend it.

 


Claudia Z wrote:

You have enough details to pursue an action. You can file with the authorities a criminal complaint against the client and declare that you want to become a party in the criminal proceedings as a civil claimant


At this point, the "client" hasn't cost the OP anything because he hasn't returned any money, nor does he intend to unless he is forced to do so. The only "victim" here at this point is Upwork.

 

To stand any chance of success, any criminal charges against the "client" would have to involve the alleged victim (the owner of the credit card), whose identity probably isn't known to the OP. The owner of the credit car has a bunch of their money back, so how motivated they would be to cooperate with anything is questionable.

 

Otherwise, the police will tell the OP that it's a messy civil case they won't have any intention of getting involved with.

 

Even if a criminal case were to lead to a result, that wouldn't help the OP because they'd still owe Upwork the money. So whilst a conviction would feel real good, ultimately someone would still be out $12.5k...

 

 

 


Petra R wrote:


Here's the thing though: The money HAS been returned. The second that chargeback happened, the money was returned. It was taken out of Upwork's account and they subsequently couldn't defend it.



At this point, the "client" hasn't cost the OP anything because he hasn't returned any money, nor does he intend to unless he is forced to do so. The only "victim" here at this point is Upwork.

 

To stand any chance of success, any criminal charges against the "client" would have to involve the alleged victim (the owner of the credit card), whose identity probably isn't known to the OP. The owner of the credit car has a bunch of their money back, so how motivated they would be to cooperate with anything is questionable.

 


The return of the money hasn't been completed. The OP has to return the money to Upwork. The OP is also a victim. If the OP doesn't return the money, he is susceptible to be suspected as an accomplice in the fraudelent activity.

 

Possibly the OP thinks it's easier to determine Upwork forgive what he owes, and move on.


Through a criminal investigation it would be collected evidence, the client interrogated ... the OP doesn't need to know who's card was used, a victim doesn't know the mechanism of the fraud ... that's what a criminal investigation should determine.

Yes, you are correct. Yet, if an investigation occurs, I'd be the most cooperative person. Given the facts of the case, they never sent me a legal document indicating that they would pursue legal action in case I don't return those funds. According to their terms, they should inform me before doing so. I even sent an email to Upwork's legal notice department to try to resolve this, with no response (that was in July).

 

I'm currently, after reading the hundreds of comments on Medium and HackerNews, getting pushed to hire a lawyer to handle two things:-

1. Retrieve those funds from Robin and return them to Upwork

2. Study Upwork's ToS to check whether a client having another person's credit card is allowed. Because if it was an Upwork mistake, then I shouldn't by any means be punished by it.

 

Thanks,

Al


M A wrote:

2. Study Upwork's ToS to check whether a client having another person's credit card is allowed. Because if it was an Upwork mistake, then I shouldn't by any means be punished by it.

 


"By providing Payment Method information through the Site and authorizing payments with the Payment Method, Client represents, warrants, and covenants that: (a) Client is legally authorized to provide such information; (b) Client is legally authorized to make payments using the Payment Method(s); (c) if Client is an employee or agent of a company or person that owns the Payment Method, that Client is authorized by the company or person to use the Payment Method to make payments on Upwork; and (d) such actions do not violate the terms and conditions applicable to Client’s use of such Payment Method(s) or applicable law."

 

https://www.upwork.com/legal#PAYMENTMETHODS

 


Petra R wrote:

Even if a criminal case were to lead to a result, that wouldn't help the OP because they'd still owe Upwork the money. So whilst a conviction would feel real good, ultimately someone would still be out $12.5k...

 


When you file a criminal complaint you can request to become a party in the criminal proceedings as a civil claimant (to be compensated for the loss).

 

If the OP files a criminal complaint ... the client may reconsider whatever and return to Upwork the money owed. Or maybe return the money to the OP.....

 

You do understand that hiring a lawyer where I am to brief him with this situation costs at least $6k, which is half the total amount we are talking about? That's what's complicating the situation.

 

If Upwork connects me with frauds, the least they could do is be accountable for doing so, and help out in the process. Not throw the whole legal responsibility and add it to my job description.


M A wrote:

You do understand that hiring a lawyer where I am to brief him with this situation costs at least $6k, which is half the total amount we are talking about? That's what's complicating the situation.

 

If Upwork connects me with frauds, the least they could do is be accountable for doing so, and help out in the process. Not throw the whole legal responsibility and add it to my job description.


You go on and on.
Upwork has done what it could do, no more, no less.
You keep saying they should have controlled whose card it was, why? Payments were made without problem and neither Upwork nor YOU doubted that everything was correct.
Who tells you that it was not a business card that your client had access to to make payments? And that, at one point, for whatever reason, something went wrong, and the "owner" of the card decided that he wanted to recovert as much as possible?

And again, Upwork doesn't connect you with frauds. You connected, through Upwork, with a fraud.

If they don't control the payments security, then they shouldn't control the payments, and allow freelancers to do so on their own. 
I didn't just connect with Upwork to the fraud. Upwork gave me a paycheck by taking money from the fraud, and giving it to me, and taking their cut. I don't have control over that situation. 

I feel like I've been going on and on around the same situation. 

This community has several people who believes that Upwork is just a software you're using. That's up to you to believe that. Truth is, Upwork has a responsibility, to at least clear the checks before passing them through, or to inform me that a situation like this might happen.

 

I have no intention whatsoever on giving a bad PR image whatsoever to Upwork. I only stated what happenned in my case, so that people would see that this is a possibility. Aside from that, whatever happens with my case on Upwork.

I will resolve with Upwork and a lawyer, then update my blog accordingly. It's quite tiring trying to convince a minority of the readers in what I believe in should be Upwork's responsibility.

 

Thanks for your comments, Maria, I know you mean to clarify the situation as much as possible...

 

Excuse me if I refrain from answering anymore in this thread, except with a valid update.

 

Have a fantastic day!


M A wrote:

I didn't just connect with Upwork to the fraud. Upwork gave me a paycheck by taking money from the fraud, and giving it to me, and taking their cut. I don't have control over that situation. 

You miss the point .... Upwork is also a victim.


The client could have had access and means to manipulate the bank and Upwork relating to payment method verification/processing ... until something happened and triggered a chargeback. Maybe the card belong to the client and the chargeback was filed by the client.


You've worked with the client for two years, you didn't notice any red flags?

 

There is some feedback on the client's profile that indicate there were some concerns.

 

 


Claudia Z wrote:

M A wrote:

I didn't just connect with Upwork to the fraud. Upwork gave me a paycheck by taking money from the fraud, and giving it to me, and taking their cut. I don't have control over that situation. 

You miss the point .... Upwork is also a victim.


The client could have had access and means to manipulate the bank and Upwork relating to payment method verification/processing ... until something happened and triggered a chargeback. Maybe the card belong to the client and the chargeback was filed by the client.


You've worked with the client for two years, you didn't notice any red flags?

 

There is some feedback on the client's profile that indicate there were some concerns.

 

 


Exactly... Upwork is also the victim here. They have to pay a chargeback fee, that they didn't pass on to you (I'm not sure if it's a % of the amount or a flat fee).

 

M A, I think what everyone is trying to tell you is... There are laws governing chargebacks, and unfortunately chargeback fraud laws hasn't been updated since 1995, and Upwork hands are bound. In cases of chargebacks very rarely does the merchant (upwork) win against the chargeback bank, can this process be improved on Upwork's end? Sure, but again, the law is on the chargeback bank's side. So I think what you should do if I were you is, again, pay back Upwork so you don't get banned, and continue to work, it's just $12k, you'll earn it back in a month or so, and write it off as a loss on your tax return (or as much as you can, depending on how much tax you actually owe). I wouldn't waste any time or money consulting an attorney, unless if it's a free consult... definitely not worth $6k or wherever you got that number from, as I previously mentioned. $6k is usually the cost of taking a class D felony to trial in the US. I bet if you actually called around the price should be at the most $2000, or some attorneys work off of contingency, you pay them nothing upfront, but they get a % of the recovered asset. Also, please share with us the Bank... so we can at least be aware of that bank and possibly petition Upwork to ban that bank. I've never heard of any banks issuing a chargeback 2 years after... 4 months is the max even for AMEX. Imagine how many other victims of this bank, gosh. Oh I bought a $2000 TV 2 years ago, now it's time for upgrade, let me charge back so I can buy a new one for free.


M A wrote:

 

This community has several people who believes that Upwork is just a software you're using.

 

 


The thing is, those of us that believe that, and treat it as such, and behave accordingly, have a far smaller chance of this happening, because we don't just "trust" clients. 

 

That said, it's a good reminder to all of us about choosing what level of risk we want to take on and what precautions we want to take to mitigate that risk. I would have to speculate that this is really a story from the far end of the spectrum of bad outcomes. 

 

I know everyone is asking a lot of questions and it may feel like an interrogation. Remember that we weren't there or within the client-freelancer relationship, so we are trying to grasp the sequence of events, etc. And regardless of our questions, I don't think anyone finds you at fault. No one who is scammed like this is actually at fault, but we all try to look at ways we can mitigate risk. You work with dilutive funding; I work with nondilutive funding. So it's of interest to me in adding additional checks and balances to my vetting process. 


M A wrote:

You do understand that hiring a lawyer where I am to brief him with this situation costs at least $6k, which is half the total amount we are talking about? That's what's complicating the situation.

 


Filing a criminal complaint with the police is free. You need to figure out the exact place you can file. Maybe you can file the complaint online. You have to provide the name of the person you're filing against, provide any information and evidence. You can give a verbal statement and they will make a report, or you can write your own statement.

 

You can write your statement ... and hire a lawyer to review it (hire per hour ... not retain the lawyer for the entire thing). When you file a complaint with the police ... you don't have to point what's the criminal code, on what grounds in law you are filing your complaint ... you state the facts and provide evidence. The police will investigate and determine the rest.


M A wrote:

You do understand that hiring a lawyer where I am to brief him with this situation costs at least $6k, which is half the total amount we are talking about? That's what's complicating the situation.

 

If Upwork connects me with frauds, the least they could do is be accountable for doing so, and help out in the process. Not throw the whole legal responsibility and add it to my job description.


$6k? That's a lot... Did you actually call around or just found that number somewhere online. Most attorneys in US offer a free 30 minute consultation... Just to give you an idea... $6k is the cost of usually taking a felony case to trial... For example if you had aggravated assault, and you needed criminal defense to spend months to prep you from initial arraignment, to discovery, to plea offers, to trial (if you don't accept the offer) - the attorney would have to spend a lot of time reviewing the prosecutation case against you, and select a jury... and spend time coaching you on any depositions, or take depositions of witnesses against you. And then actually spend 1 to 4 hours at the actual trial. All the while, file motions and juggle so many things. $6k sounds.... extremely overpriced to consult an attorney.

Hi Claudia,

 

Thank you for the comment. I agree with you on several points. The money should definitely be returned. 

Let's say I hadn't used Upwork initially. I would've been able to verify the CC information myself and cross reference it with the client. A flag would have been raised if the credit card was named after someone else, and I wouldve taken control of the situation in the first week.

 

Now Upwork is my payment processor, and they insist on that to take their commission, which is fine by me. Hence, they should do their checks and verify the ownership. It is their responsibility as part of the payment processing fee they take. These are the facts, and they are as straight as they could be.

 

Thanks,

Al


M A wrote:

Now Upwork is my payment processor, and they insist on that to take their commission, which is fine by me. Hence, they should do their checks and verify the ownership. It is their responsibility as part of the payment processing fee they take.


I see your point of view, but from a practical standpoint, I wonder how this would work. Upwork does verify the payment method by ensuring that a small initial amount goes through, so the client needs to at least have access to the account. This seems to be enough to deter most scammers (the cheque scammers and security deposit scammers are all unverified). Even in cases where a card is stolen or hacked, you'd think that the account owner would report it within a very short period of time, before much damage is done. (I can't imagine that Upwork has ever had a case in which a client has managed to put through tens of thousands in fraudulent charges over a period of two years!) So what should be done? In order to ensure that the card holder and client have the same name, Upwork would need to get proper photo ID from the client, but even then, if somebody's wallet is stolen, the thief would have access to their driver's license too. So video verification would be needed as well. Upwork already goes through this process with freelancers, but we're highly motiviated to comply in order to earn money. I wonder how many clients would be willing to jump through these hoops? I mean, imagine if you had to submit government-approved photo ID and go through a video verification every time you wanted to buy something on the Internet; it would be disasterous to the profits of any website, not only in lost business but in the additional staff required to carry this out. The 3% payment processing fee isn't going to cover it.

 


M A wrote:

Let's say I hadn't used Upwork initially. I would've been able to verify the CC information myself and cross reference it with the client. A flag would have been raised if the credit card was named after someone else, and I wouldve taken control of the situation in the first week.


So honestly, have you done this with non-Upwork clients before? Because I have a lot of non-Upwork clients, and I've never asked any of them for I.D. And will you be doing this with your Upwork clients from now on, after this experience?

 

(Apologies for all the questions - you must be pretty tired of this thread by now! But since I'm sure that this is every freelancer's worst nightmare, we're all interested in your case.)

colettelewis
Community Member

I don't know where the OP is, but what happens if he refuses to pay - leaving aside the wrongs and the rights of the case? 

 

(I thought it was a violation of Upwork's  ToS to ask for a chargeback.)

 


Nichola L wrote:

I don't know where the OP is, but what happens if he refuses to pay? 

 


He and his client are in Zurich, Switzerland.

I don't know the answer to the second question.

 

I asked their support this question numerous times, with the same answer. "You have to pay this amount."

 

That's it.


Nichola L wrote:

........................

(I thought it was a violation of Upwork's  ToS to ask for a chargeback.)

 


It is, and what they do is delete the customer's account. That's it.

(if I am not wrong)


Nichola L wrote:

I don't know where the OP is, but what happens if he refuses to pay - leaving aside the wrongs and the rights of the case? 

 


He is refusing to pay so far. Upwork told him that they'd deduct the money from his account when he gets paid for new projects, so it looks like the solution is to not do any more work through Upwork (his profile title even says that he's not looking for work and will only respond to invitations). How long they'll let this go on without suspending the account is anybody's guess.

tomzilla1
Community Member

Here's my 2 cents... Sorry this has happened. But like Petra and many have said, chargebacks is basically the bank reversing the charge. Upwork is out of 12k so that's why they're after you.

 

12k is a lot of money, and I see your point of the loss. You lost many hours of work, that you can't get it back.

 

My thought is, why not just pay Upwork off, and write 12k as a loss on your tax return?

 

Thank you for sharing this, it's scary to hear there's banks that allow chargebacks up to 1 year... and for a service, not like a product... even AMEX wouldn't let me chargeback something like that to the tune of $12k,.... spanning months of multiple transactions, a year later... I think Upwork in this case should ban such banks, because it exposes them and the freelancer to this exploit.

 

As for fraud... I mean I had to go through that once, and they required so much documentation, under oath, and it was only for $xxxx. The bank should go after the person that committed the fraud, not the merchant (Upwork). Do you know the bank's name? Definitely something I think every merchant, Upwork included, should look into.

 

alekseevpavel78
Community Member


M A wrote:
Hi!

I worked for a client a year ago, and we finished alot of work together with different people creating websites, etc.

I used to record all hours manually as they’re mostly calls and communication, as I’m a project manager.

Now, one year later, Upwork is sending me an email that the bank is requesting a chargeback of more than $12,500 from my contract one year ago.
...........
Kindly advise,
Thanks,
Al

 

If everything that you wrote here is the truth and no details were skipped by you...

 

I think there is no connection or obligations between you and your "client's" bank. So, you don't owe anything to the bank - it was or it will be covered by Upwork.   There could be some consequences for Upwork maybe or maybe not...   but no legal consequences for you.

 

But it's completely not understandable why Upwork decided to charge you for the amount returned by chargeback. Why Upwork doesn't want to legally charge the customer who was your "client"? Like go to the police, run an investigation, etc... Why Upwork doesn't want to charge for this loss of $12,500 for their safety team/anti-fraud team/or any_other_responsible_for_that_team? Something like "hey, s*t happened, this team overlooked that, no bonuses this month for them" 🙂

 

Also, it looks completely weird why the bank should review the results of your work? Especially if that work and results were already approved by the client and the payments were approved by Upwork.

 

There is no way for freelancers how to know which credentials and payment methods any client use. And freelancers here are not obliged to know who are the clients there. Not sure if that is allowed or not at all on Upwork. But anyway, you could be banned if you try to contact a client outside Upwork.

 

So, I guess, if a client is able to create a contract and make payments, then a freelancer should have no worries about the credentials that the client provided.  That's why we need Upwork and we are paying the fees for that. And in most cases, it works just fine.

 

Actually, if everything that you wrote here is the truth, then it looks like a big problem to freelancers and a huge opportunity for scammers or for anyone who wants to get work for free - seems like all that they need to do is just to request a chargeback after the job done.

 

And as I understand there is only the chance to avoid any debts in similar cases is to use the official tracker... no flat-rate contracts, no manual time at all.

I regard original poster M A as a "hero of the Community Forum" for coming here and being willing to share so much information about a difficult, personal situation.

 

He has fielded questions with admirable aplomb.

00137e0a
Community Member

Right now, Upwork is a victim just like the OP, so I'm not sure about what could be done to remediate this situation, but I believe it would be important for Upwork to learn something from it and start thinking about a more rigorous system for vetting a client's payment method.

 

Just the other day, I was filling my bank account info on Upwork, and I was warned that it had to be an exact match of the personal documentation I've sent them for ID verification. 

 

Wouldn't it be reasonable that they started demanding the same from clients? Ok. It's perfectly understandable that a business could use several different cards with different names on them but in that case, wouldn't it be reasonable to verify the card owner's ID as well?

 

In my opinion, this is clearly a flaw in the system, which needs to be addressed, otherwise, as somebody else said, scammers could easily take advantage of it.

 

I'm sorry about what happened to you, M A. 12.000USD is a lot of money, and I would certainly sue the client if this was happening to me, especially since he lives in the same country as you, which makes things way simpler than suing internationally.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Rafael M wrote:

Right now, Upwork is a victim just like the OP....

 

I would certainly sue the client if this was happening to me, especially since he lives in the same country as you, which makes things way simpler than suing internationally.  

 

 


He can't sue the client - there were no finance transactions between OP and this client.

 

But there were transactions between the client and Upwork, and after that, between Upwork and M A. It works here like CLIENT <-> UPWORK <-> FREELANCER, is not it? 

 

So, Upwork can sue the client.  

 

But probably some details were skipped by OP, not sure if everything is the truth in his story. 


Paul T wrote:

Rafael M wrote:

Right now, Upwork is a victim just like the OP....

 

I would certainly sue the client if this was happening to me, especially since he lives in the same country as you, which makes things way simpler than suing internationally.  

 

 


He can't sue the client - there were no finance transactions between OP and this client.

 

But there were transactions between the client and Upwork, and after that, between Upwork and M A. It works here like CLIENT <-> UPWORK <-> FREELANCER, is not it? 

 

So, Upwork can sue the client.  

 


The contract is between the client and freelancer!


"If a Client and Freelancer decide to enter into a Service Contract, the Service Contract is a contractual relationship directly between the Client and Freelancer. "


https://www.upwork.com/legal#CONTRACTUALRELATIONSHIP

https://www.upwork.com/legal#purposeof

 

The freelancer wouldn't have been asked to repay the chargeback if the client sorted out the issue and paid. If the freelancer doesn't pay either then his/her account is permanently suspended.


Claudia Z wrote:

Paul T wrote:

 

 


He can't sue the client - there were no finance transactions between OP and this client.

 

But there were transactions between the client and Upwork, and after that, between Upwork and M A. It works here like CLIENT <-> UPWORK <-> FREELANCER, is not it? 

 

So, Upwork can sue the client.  

 


The contract is between the client and freelancer!


"If a Client and Freelancer decide to enter into a Service Contract, the Service Contract is a contractual relationship directly between the Client and Freelancer. "


I wrote about the financial transactions. But anyway,  I could wish you good luck if you want to bring this contract to your bank and explain something regarding the payments you received/paid from/to Upwork and how these payments are related to the contract you have with someone else. 

 


Claudia Z wrote:

 

The freelancer wouldn't have been asked to repay the chargeback if the client sorted out the issue and paid. If the freelancer doesn't pay either then his/her account is permanently suspended.


This is completely weird - looks like "Sorry, we tried but we can't cover our financial loss from our client who frauded us and the freelancer as well, then we decided to charge the freelancer" 🙂   I guess something different happened.

 

And I really hope that Upwork will improve something in terms of verification of the clients' credentials and their payment methods.

 

 

 


Paul T wrote:


This is completely weird - looks like "Sorry, we tried but we can't cover our financial loss from our client who frauded us and the freelancer as well , then we decided to charge the freelancer" 🙂  

 


Between the freelancer and client it was a contractual relationship.  The OP is asked to return money he received from a possible fraudulent activity.

 

Don't you think there should be some consequences? What if a freelancer notices some red flags but continue working thinking oh this is Upwork's responsibility, I'll get paid regardless.

 


Claudia Z wrote:

Paul T wrote:


This is completely weird - looks like "Sorry, we tried but we can't cover our financial loss from our client who frauded us and the freelancer as well , then we decided to charge the freelancer" 🙂  

 


What if a freelancer notices some red flags but continue working thinking oh this is Upwork's responsibility, I'll get paid regardless.

 


But what if he did not? Or just didn't consider that because the client was "approved" by Upwork.

 

You know, there are no options for freelancers to check the info like "Mr. Joe White using a stolen credit card with name Smith Black on that, and provided an ID with a monkey on photo" which could look definitely suspicious. But there are options available for Upwork. 


Paul T wrote:


But what if he did not? Or just didn't consider that because the client was "approved" by Upwork.

 


It is not what one thinks it is or it should be. It is what the Site Terms sais it is.


I get it, I never had a dispute or refund, I have no reason to think that Upwork isn't safe. I do have expectations from Upwork to keep it safe, at a reasonable cost.


Do you think that it would be reasonable to pay 50% commision fees to Upwork, to quarantee that they will absorb any possible chargebacks? I don't think so ...


Claudia Z wrote: Do you think that it would be reasonable to pay 50% commision fees to Upwork, to quarantee that they will absorb any possible chargebacks? I don't think so ...

And let's not forget that our fees are going towards plugging the hole these $12.500 have created...


We're the ones paying for it, the OP hasn't paid a Cent of it to date and doesn't intend to unless forced.


Claudia Z wrote:

Paul T wrote:


But what if he did not? Or just didn't consider that because the client was "approved" by Upwork.

 


It is not what one thinks it is or it should be. It is what the Site Terms sais it is.


I get it, I never had a dispute or refund, I have no reason to think that Upwork isn't safe. I do have expectations from Upwork to keep it safe, at a reasonable cost.


Do you think that it would be reasonable to pay 50% commision fees to Upwork, to quarantee that they will absorb any possible chargebacks? I don't think so ...


No problem, then UW just needs to remove the badge "Payment verified" in case the credentials don't  much for 100%, you know, just to avoid any possible misunderstanding or misinterpretation and add something like " Payments methods under different credentials. Be advised, chargeback is possible" .

 


Paul T wrote:


No problem, then UW just needs to remove the badge "Payment verified" in case the credentials don't  much for 100%, you know, just to avoid any possible misunderstanding or misinterpretation and add something like " Payments methods under different credentials. Be advised, chargeback is possible" .

 


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