Client demand for full refund!

mr_zia · ‎10-04-2021

Hi

I signed contarct ($575 ) with client in the end of july and i did the first milestone ($150) in 2 days and deliveler the second ($425) on 5 august Client report list of bugs i fix it then i delivered on 9 august without submit button ( I usually submit work without submit button)

the project was simple screen recording extension (testing and review will take 1 hour)

On every weekend he send message that his staff is out of office and his office is empty. so on 29 august i decide to deliver it with submit button.I submitted then he told me that you are frocing me to review the work in 14 days he told me that he have new year and agian his office is empty.and reject the milestone in the rejection message he told that he have no time to review.

Then i decide wait until he came back.he came back on 18 september and told me that he new project (his new project was to add feature to the extension i have built for him). I told him i am intreseted but i will do in the new contract once i fix bug/issue(if he have) in the current contract. he give me idea that he will end the current contract and release milestone and i will fix the bug in the next contract . i told them so many times to finish the work of active milestone in the current contract before closing it. But he was forcing and insisting to sign new contract.(because he know that i will not sign another contract with him becuase he want to work without the upwork standard 14 days countdown for reviewing work)

But He end the current contract give 5 star feed back and send new offer. I declined the offer then he was forcing me and threating that my account will be get down. so i decide to block him.

Then he file dispute and demand for full refund . dispute agent asked to provide proof that wether he doesn't received the work of last milestone list of bug/issue or missing functionalities. he provide the following reason.

1) he have no bug no issue. his reason is that he told me that he will sign new contract and fix the bug of previous contract in the new contract . currently he no bug.

1.1) He told the dispute agent that he will throw the code and never use it.

2) He need full refund and get zia down.

3) He asking is threatening that he will do anything to get down my profile.

4) He asking the dispute agent to go for arbitration he said he doesn't care about his profile and he can spends Thousand to get my profile down and he will try everthing to get my profile down. The only place he see that can down my profile is arbitration and insisting the disput agent to go for.

I know upwork doesn't down user profile on the request of another user.

He give me two option.

1) Either full refund

2) Or go for arbitration

I am confuse if i refund full money then he got the money , code and fully functional extension i see the api log he is still using the extension.

I don't want to put my profile at risk and go for arbitration. My profile is worth more then his $575

Now i have nothing only tears in my eyes . the tear is not for the hardwork i did not for money . It due to anger that how he is stealing money in the front of upwork.

can someone suggest which path should i go.?

g_vasilevski · ‎10-04-2021

Hi Zia,

I'm sorry to hear about the bad experience you've had with your client. Rest assured, you won't have any problems with your account by continuing with your dispute or going to arbitration. For more details about this, please refer to the information shared with you on your ticket with the number 32804927.
If you have any additional questions, feel free to follow up directly with your dispute agent and our team member will assist you further. Thank you.

~ Goran

petra_r · ‎10-04-2021

Zia U wrote:

I don't want to put my profile at risk and go for arbitration. My profile is worth more then his $575

Going for arbitration does not put your profile in danger, whatever gave you that idea? Go for arbitration! Chances are the client will back out. It sounds like the client is simply trying to frighten you into giving in because he knows perfectly well that he can't win arbitration.

Be really confident and tell the client and the mediator that you would like to move forward with arbitration immedoately, and ask where you can send the arbitration fee. Don't back down.

mr_zia · ‎10-04-2021

I have money in my account. i can pay the fee but i know 100% i will win. but i heard that at the end of arbitration somebody will get down.

Does upwork down the one who file the dispute?

petra_r · ‎10-04-2021

Zia U wrote:
but i heard that at the end of arbitration somebody will get down.

That is complete nonsense! Don't let people scare you!

Zia U wrote:
Does upwork down the one who file the dispute?

No, of course not. It is every user's right to file a dispute or elect for arbitration, That will never count against you in any way. Also report the client for all the threats. The client can't do a thing to your account.

Usually the freelancer gets the chance to pay for arbitration first. If the client then pulls out (knowing they can't win arbitration), you get the money in escrow AND the arbitration fee back.

mr_zia · ‎10-04-2021

That is complete nonsense! Don't let people scare you!

He is not saying this in private conversation he saying all this is the dispute conversation. hahah

mr_zia · ‎10-04-2021

I heard that the arbitrator will be third person. The main goal of the client is not to get $575 but to get my profile down.

here is a question cricling in my mind.

if arbitrator is third person he may offer few thousand dollar to make rulling in the fav of him and earse the facts. He clearly said this in the dispute conversation the he can spend thousands and to do anything.

I have very good profile and i have mantined 5 star rating and 100% success in the past 3 year. i don't want put my profile at risk even if the risk is 0.0001%

petra_r · ‎10-04-2021

Zia U wrote:
I heard that the arbitrator will be third person. The main goal of the client is not to get $575 but to get my profile down.

The client is simply trying to scare you. And it is working. The arbitration company is a third party organisation that does NOTHING other than arbitrate cases.

And arbitrators can't get your profile taken down. They have no powers to do that. They ONLY decide over the funds from the contract. They have NO power over your profile.

Zia U wrote:
if arbitrator is third person he may offer few thousand dollar to make rulling in the fav of him and earse the facts.

That is NOT how it works. First of all, the client can't affort to do that, they wouldn't be arguing over $575 if they could.

Secondly, facts are hard to erase, and thirdly, still that would not affect your Upwork account.

Zia U wrote:
I have very good profile and i have mantined 5 star rating and 100% success in the past 3 year. i don't want put my profile at risk even if the risk is 0.0001%

Again, the client is simply trying to frighten you. Your profile is not at risk. Stand up for yourself and do not allow this rogue client to bully you because he will try to bully the next freelancer too. Report any and all inappropriate behaviour!

wlyonsatl · ‎10-04-2021

If you are willing, in the worst case, to pay an indepenent arbitrator $291 and Upwork agrees to arbitration, go for it. If the client does not agree to pay for arbitration, you automatically get paid what you are owed. (He's already left feedback for you, so he can have no further influence on your JSS or other status on Upwork.)

It sounds like this client has repeatedly acted outside the spirit of professionism and Upwork; don't be tempted to take an offer of much less than 100% of what you are owed. I hope you were honest in your feedback for the client, so other freelancers know what they're getting into working for him.

The independent arbitrator assigned to your case will be a trained professional whose only interest is a fair resolution. (S)he may or may not give great weight to any particular Upwork rules or instructions. That may or may not be deciding you should receive 100% of the money the client owes you, but it sounds like you have a great chance of coming out of this with at least a good deal of what you are owed.

Be sure to follow all of the arbitrator's requests or instructions to the letter and as quickly as you can.

Good luck!

P.S. Upwork, please add to all freelancers' and clients' public profiles the number of times they have a) gone to arbitration and b) refused to go to arbitration. Thanks in advance!

mr_zia · ‎10-04-2021

Below are some sentence from client messages in the dispute conversation.

1) we will never use Zia code, i can assure you on that, thrown away

2)We're working on filing charges against Zia directly, now that we got his full contact details

3) if it will cost me 300 USD to get you off upwork, then i will go that path, if it will cost a 1000$ to assign litigation internationally, i would go that path.

4) i will do everything in my legal power to remove you from the platform

5) Zia should be kept out and your team should be alerted on any re opening of any type of account on this platform.

Can someone explain the point number 2. Does upwork share personal info with client?

Note:

He will never use my code. and he will throw that. what kind of joke is this. Currently he have zero bug in the extension the extension work smoothly.

I told him that i will sign new contract with him but later i decide to not sign new contract. because there was a problem in this client. so he get hurts and now he saying that i am lair and i voilated the upwork tos and upwork should banned me because i am not honest and he is asking for full refund.

wlyonsatl · ‎10-04-2021

There are two sides to every story, Zia, but you should ignore this childish client's histrionics and let Upwork's employees guide you through to a resolution.

Unless this client is an idiot, he's not going to spend big money on a legal action for such a small project. And if you are located in different countries, he really is just posturing.

No client can get a freelancer removed from Upwork. Only the freelancer's own actions will dictate that.

petra_r · ‎10-04-2021

Is the client on the same country as you are? If not, ignre any nonsense about the client taking legal action. He is bluffing. He isn't filing any charges. It's all designed to frighten you into giving in. Don't communicate with him, only the mediator.

Honestly, the client is making a fool out of himself and you should say as little as possible other than "I believe that communication has broken down and nothin will be resolved in mediation, I would like to proceed with arbitration right away, please."

The client is still bluffing. Do NOT let him.

mr_zia · ‎10-04-2021

If he was our nieghbour still i would not care.I just only care about my profile.

I will never do fixed price job after this. But there is a porblem i am chrome extension expert. small chrome extension price normally start from $500 as fixed price and take upto 10 hour for me to build because i am expert. medium level freelancer will build the same in 3-5 days. If i do the same job on normal hourly rate($30) it will cost $300. If i increase my hourly rate then rarely people will work with me.

I should wait for the final solution of meditor.

thanks great answers

petra_r · ‎10-04-2021

Zia U wrote:
I just only care about my profile.

The client categorically can't endanger your profile. Do NOT worry about that. a dispute won't put your profile in danger and arbitration certainly wouldn't, even if the client went for that.

prestonhunter · ‎10-04-2021

re: "I will never do fixed price job after this."

This is a valid position to take.

There are MANY freelancers who do not work on fixed-price contracts.

On the other hand, there are many freelancers who only work on fixed-price contracts.

Either approach is valid. As is the the decision to work on both.

m_terrazas · ‎10-04-2021

Zia U wrote:
If he was our nieghbour still i would not care.I just only care about my profile.
I will never do fixed price job after this. But there is a porblem i am chrome extension expert. small chrome extension price normally start from $500 as fixed price and take upto 10 hour for me to build because i am expert. medium level freelancer will build the same in 3-5 days. If i do the same job on normal hourly rate($30) it will cost $300. If i increase my hourly rate then rarely people will work with me.
I should wait for the final solution of meditor.

thanks great answers

Zia, you have a great profile and I understand that you care to keep it that way.

But, listen to what they are telling you. That **bleep** customer is trying to scare you.
HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY POWER over Upwork or the arbitration team.
Customer CANNOT DO ANYTHING to your profile.
The arbitration WILL NOT HARM your profile.

I would also advise you to go to arbitration, so that clients like this do not believe that they can do whatever they want and go free.

Gather all the evidence you have (conversations, screenshots, etc ...) to be able to send it when asked.
You will tell us what you decide and how it has turned out.
Good luck!

mr_zia · ‎10-05-2021

Can you expalin the arbitration. does that happen through email?

m_terrazas · ‎10-05-2021

Zia U wrote:
Can you expalin the arbitration. does that happen through email?

I don't know how arbitration works. Luckily I haven't had to face one yet.
There are people here who know how it works. I hope they explain.

petra_r · ‎10-05-2021

Zia U wrote:
Can you expalin the arbitration. does that happen through email?

Yes, it happens 100% online.

It is entirely possible that your client will immediately pull out when he sees that you have paid for arbitration, because that would be the end of his intimidation game.

wlyonsatl · ‎10-05-2021

Zia,

I hope you win this without arbitration..

No one here who hasn't actually been through an arbitration via Upwork can tell you exactly how it will work, but we know your arbitrator will come from American Arbitration Association (or its international affiliate the International Centre for Dispute Resolution?), whose thousands of member arbitrators work on hundreds of thousands of cases each year:

https://www.adr.org/

You can read this page to find out more about how virtual arbitration works:

https://go.adr.org/covid-19-virtual-hearings.html?utm_source=website&utm_medium=featurebox&utm_campa...

If you have any special language needs, make sure to communicate that upfront to Upwork and the arbitrator for your case.

mr_zia · ‎10-05-2021

Thanks for great reply

Everyone can asked for refund if job left uncompleted.

client told that contract left unfinished and bugs was left unfixed.
its simple logic if contract left unfinished this mean there is a bugs/issues or missing functionality.
From the beginning of dispute i am asking this one question that "provide the list of bug/issue or missing functionality". but he is not providing the list. he said that he thrown the code he hire another developer and his new developer start from scratch. And he asure the dispute agent that he will not use the code i delivered.
I told the client that Download the last copy of the work delivered run it and show us where was the bug/issue. but he is not showing.

"By just saying that i have bug and thrown the code and i will never use it and i need full refund " i think upwork should not consider this type of dispute and close down the dispute.

artsbd · ‎10-04-2021

I had faced the same problem last week. I continued the dispute and reported all of his threatening messages. After that, he stops his fool complaint and paid me. After all the things end, my profile is discovering more time than the previous.

In my last week's experience, I see you will not face any problem. Don't worry continue your work. Best of luck to you.

44eebe67 · ‎10-05-2021

This sounds like something I went through recently with a client. He didn't threaten me the way yours did but he was being extremely demanding and rude to me. I delivered the work and ended the contract, but it was an hourly contract, so it was easier. I almost think it might be better to work it out with a client to do an hourly contract and guarantee that the maximum it will cost is X? I am also finding that the more detailed you make the contract the better. It's great to have this forum even if ity's just to get something off our chest. Arbitration sounds rediculous over that much money, but I'm curious how it works in case I ever contront a situation like this. Please let me know how it works out. I understand that you don't care about the 575, but you care more about what he's threatening to do. It sounds like the other commentors are agreeing he's just threatening you. But I get it that you're scared.

ashrafkhan81 · ‎10-05-2021

Eileen S wrote:
I almost think it might be better to work it out with a client to do an hourly contract and guarantee that the maximum it will cost is X?

I may be wrong, if so please correct me. But I read somewhere on the forum that you can't do an hourly project by guaranteeing that billing will not exceed X amount and it's against the ToS.

prestonhunter · ‎10-05-2021

re: "But I read somewhere on the forum that you can't do an hourly project by guaranteeing that billing will not exceed X amount and it's against the ToS."

I do not know if it is officially against Upwork TOS or not.

If should be.

But if it is not, it does not matter to me.

I am smart enough to not fall for that.

It is incredibly foolish for a freelancer to mix fixed-price and hourly contracts like that. Upwork doesn't support this, and this type of mixing almost always ends up badly for the freelancer.

wlyonsatl · ‎10-05-2021

If a freelancer wants to guarantee to a client that an hourly project will not take longer than a specific number of hours, that's up to the two of them to agree to.

The freelancer takes the risk that the client will expect work beyond that time limit to be non-billable. (Yes, if that were necessary it would be unpaid work time, which violates Upwork's Terms of Service. This is irrelevant if the work is completed on time.)

The client takes the risk that the freelancer doesn't complete the project within the agreed time limit (and budget).

But whether they decide to accept those risks is totally up to them, not Upwork.

I have agreed with prior clients that doing some additional, limited work on my previous work for them would not take more than X hours under an hourly contract. They had no problem accepting those terms.

But I would never agree to that with a new client with a new project. That would be asking for trouble.

prestonhunter · ‎10-05-2021

I don't object to some limited use of the concept of saying how long some small task will take. And then not logging more time than that.

But clients should understand that this sort of agreement is 100% unenforceable.

And freelancers should know that clients are likely to really abuse an agreement of this sort. A client will interpret this sort of thing as an ironclad contract and things could go very badly.

wlyonsatl · ‎10-06-2021

What experienced Upwork freelancers know but new freelancers have to learn is that a big part of being successful on Upwork is understanding the risks of choices made versus the potential for earning money or getting work done within a budget.

Using manual hours can be risky for freelancers.

Using hourly contracts can be risky for clients.

There are ways to limit these and other risks as an Upwork customer on either side of a contract, but there is no way to eliminate them entirely.

prestonhunter · ‎10-06-2021

re: "Using hourly contracts can be risky for clients."

And using fixed-price contracts can be risky for clients as well.

During the past two weeks we have seen some epic disasters reported by clients who used fixed-price contracts.

These clients had previous success with fixed-price. With honest, professional freelancers. But then they ran into scoundrels... and uncautious fixed-price does not necessarily work well when dealing with manipulative scoundrels.

petra_r · ‎10-05-2021

Ashraf K wrote:
Eileen S wrote:
I almost think it might be better to work it out with a client to do an hourly contract and guarantee that the maximum it will cost is X?
I may be wrong, if so please correct me. But I read somewhere on the forum that you can't do an hourly project by guaranteeing that billing will not exceed X amount and it's against the ToS.

Client and freelancer are free to agree this if they want you want, whyever not, and it wouldn't be a violation of the terms of service in any way.

Whether it is a good idea in all cases or not is another question.