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asr28
Community Member

Client didn't pay, instead changed the milestone.

Hi,

I am stuck with a client. Now I know he is not a good client but doesn't know how to get rid of him. Here is a series of events - 

1. The client hired me with a fixed cost project saying his project is very urgent and created 4 milestones with tight schedules-  Advance, live corporate site, create e-commerce section, and one month support after project completion. I agree with them.

2. We mutually decided a theme for this WordPress project. He bought it and I implemented it. 

3. Now the twist comes, he asked for some changes which even the theme author suggested to get them done from a developer. Since this was impacting project timeline, cost and mobile responsiveness so I suggested him to go with another theme. Again we mutually discussed, decided a theme and then the same story. Somehow I accomplished what he asked for. During this we had a few calls that were as long as 2 hours, he gave me very minute changes that were almost 40 in numbers. I did that too. Later he came with more changes. I did them too. During this, I already told him that because of these changes milestone will be delayed.

Finally, he was okay, and I submitted the milestone. 

After a week of my submission, he clicked change in milestone and now he responds to me when he wants to. I informed him well in advance about my unavailability for 3 days & he was okay with it.
Now I am back, but he is not responding over his so-called urgent project.

I was not saying anything to him thinking that this milestone payment will be released & he will create a new one, however, I realized the milestone payment was not released even after 16 days so today I resubmitted it. 

 

I am worried that I have invested so much time and effort in this project, he can again change the milestone and this way it will be a ping-pong ball. Now I am sure that I don't want to work with him but how to get the money for the work done. Please guide. 

22 REPLIES 22
robin_hyman
Community Member

Definitely multiple red flags here.  You agreed to the tight timeline but did you both agree on the # of rounds of revisions?  Based on your story, no.  Expectations have to be well-defined upfront or someone (or both parties) will be unhappy.  

 

So now you're in this jam. If you correctly submitted your deliverable on Upwork then you should receive payment with 14 days.  Note the client may request a refund.  Anticipate it.  Try reaching out to the client again and be as respectful and nice as possible.  

 

Worse case scenario you may have to drop this client entirely and accept poor feedback resulting in a hit to your JSS.

 

Good luck and please keep up posted.

 

Best,

Robin

re: "The client hired me with a fixed cost project saying his project is very urgent and created 4 milestones with tight schedules"

 

if a client is SERIOUS about having a very urgent timeline... if the client is SERIOUS about having a tight schedule... Then the client should use an hourly contract - not fixed-price contracts with milestones.

 

And the client should hire multiple separate freelancers to work on the project.

 

Upwork is not a "magical box" that client can simply dictate "I want X, Y and Z done by Monday, and I'm going to pay $50 for that."

 

Life doesn't work that way. Wouldn't it be great if something like that could actually work? But life doesn't work that way, and Upwork doesn't work that way. Upwork can't guarantee a ton of work done on a shoestring budget on a tight deadline. NOBODY can guarantee that kind of thing. A FREELANCER can not actually guarantee being able to deliver that kind of thing, EVEN IF HE WANTS TO.

 

Sometimes miraculous, amazing work can be done. But nobody can guarantee that.

 

If there is a tight schedule and a lot of work to be done, you may need more than one person to make that happen. And you may need more than a shoestring budget.

 

Screen Shot 2019-08-16 at 9.16.50 AM.png

Hi Preston,

 

Thanks, your inputs are very practical and certainly going to help me in the long run especially that diagram Smiley Happy

Hi Robin,

Thanks for your inputs, I agree with you that I should have set up some expectations regarding the change request. 

I submitted the milestone by clicking the submit button with my comments. If the client really had any more changes he would have replied in the milestone change however now he is not that active. Is there any other way to submit to get payment in 14 days cycle?

 

If at all, I have to drop this client then what should I do with the work submitted to him over his hosting. I already developed the corporate website on his server & still, I have access to the hosting. What do you suggest in case I make a 100% refund? Should I delete that work with 100% refund or let him go with a full refund &  all the work done?

 

I submitted the milestone by clicking the submit button with my comments. If the client really had any more changes he would have replied in the milestone change however now he is not that active. Is there any other way to submit to get payment in 14 days cycle?

 

It's not that black and white.  He may not have replied within the milestone if he wanted a change.  Maybe something happened in his personal life that made him go silent.  You have to wait the 14 days to get paid.  

 

If at all, I have to drop this client then what should I do with the work submitted to him over his hosting. I already developed the corporate website on his server & still, I have access to the hosting. What do you suggest in case I make a 100% refund? Should I delete that work with 100% refund or let him go with a full refund &  all the work done?

 

You should be paid for the work you've done.  Never make a 100% refund unless you made some serious mistakes.  Don'd delete the work.  Again I would reach out another time and if he fails to respond (give it a week) then I would cancel the contract but not before giving him your reasons for the cancellation.  That's how I would handle it.  Maybe others on this forum would respond differently.

 

Robin


 

Hi Robin,

He is not responding to me over Upwork however he responded over whatsapp today. So I am sure all well at his end as he said he is busy with work. In addition to that, he gave me a carrot for hiring an admin resource from my team. I asked him to communicate over Upwork to discuss the work & approve the second milestone to which he said that he can't type lines over Upwork while whatsapp is easy. However, he agreed to talk tomorrow ( he didn't confirm the call schedule, as he is "busy"). Anyways, my agenda to share this is that I have given him all the benefits of doubts.

 

In addition to your's, I'll pick important points from Sue & Preston's notes to handle this client. This is how I think I should move forward - Get him over Upwork for a call/ text chat tomorrow & listen to his side of the story for the last time. Ask him to approve the second milestone & wait for another 2 days for him to approve.  Else cancel the contract & file dispute for the money of work done.

 

I am sure, you & everyone on this platform will agree to me that even if he agrees to delete the work that I did, it's of no use to me. I have already lost my time, efforts & energy over the job so why should I remain empty-handed. In no case, such clients should walk away simply saying - delete the work.

Of course, I'll do this in a polite manner. 

a_lipsey
Community Member


Abhishek R wrote:

Hi Robin,

He is not responding to me over Upwork however he responded over whatsapp today. So I am sure all well at his end as he said he is busy with work. In addition to that, he gave me a carrot for hiring an admin resource from my team. I asked him to communicate over Upwork to discuss the work & approve the second milestone to which he said that he can't type lines over Upwork while whatsapp is easy. However, he agreed to talk tomorrow ( he didn't confirm the call schedule, as he is "busy"). Anyways, my agenda to share this is that I have given him all the benefits of doubts.

 

In addition to your's, I'll pick important points from Sue & Preston's notes to handle this client. This is how I think I should move forward - Get him over Upwork for a call/ text chat tomorrow & listen to his side of the story for the last time. Ask him to approve the second milestone & wait for another 2 days for him to approve.  Else cancel the contract & file dispute for the money of work done.

 

I am sure, you & everyone on this platform will agree to me that even if he agrees to delete the work that I did, it's of no use to me. I have already lost my time, efforts & energy over the job so why should I remain empty-handed. In no case, such clients should walk away simply saying - delete the work.

Of course, I'll do this in a polite manner. 


The bold section is a red flag to me. Sounds like he's trying to avoid having a record of the conversations and things he's said. I would insist on communication through UpWork and in writing. Maybe that's what you meant by "get him over to UpWork for a call/text." I hope so. 

asr28
Community Member

Yes Amanda this is what I want. 

petra_r
Community Member

I really do not understand all that client-chasing that's going on here. I'd leave the client totally alone and wait out the 14 days.

 

Also, do **NOT** cancel (or rather close, no "cancel" possible at this stage) the contract until you have been paid, because that automatically sends all the money in Escrow back to the client.

 

re: "If at all, I have to drop this client then what should I do with the work submitted to him over his hosting. I already developed the corporate website on his server & still, I have access to the hosting. What do you suggest in case I make a 100% refund? Should I delete that work with 100% refund or let him go with a full refund & all the work done?"

 

You should give the client the choice:

 

"Jonathan: Upwork's rules state that the work done by a freelancer belongs to the freelancer until the client pays for it. Would you like to release the escrow payment now and receive complete ownership over everything that I have done? Or you would you prefer that I close the contract, refund all of the escrow money back to you, and delete my work from your server? Either decision you make is fine with me."

petersonsue
Community Member

Hello,

 

I had a similar situation that dragged on forever with every excuse from the client. She also changed the milestone which allowed her a longer time span to "not address the work I did." I was determined to get paid since I had put so many hours into the project on such a tight time span (like you); I made the changes she asked but she just would not end the project. I must have written over 20 emails to her. She finally said it was her fault. I told her I needed the money to pay bills and if I could be paid, I would appreciate it. Eventually, she paid in full. I thought that she might mark me down in my score but she gave me a 5 star. I, however, ranked her very low (the lowest of any of the clients I worked for). I don't think you should refund the amount of money until you (politely) keep seeking the payment. Then the advice from someone below who stated that the work then is yours if they won't pay is good but I would wait to say this. Keep trying a few times to get paid (again, in a polite, professional manner). It might work for you.  Sue Peterson

Hiring a freelancer on Upwork and then choosing to not pay him what you agreed to pay him is no different then hiring a babysitter to watch your child and then not paying her.

 

Parent: Okay, sorry we were late. We stopped for a bite after the movie. Do you need a ride home?

 

Babysitter: Um, no. I can walk home from here.

 

Parent: Okay. Bye.

 

Babysitter: Um... That was three hours, so that would be $15.00.

 

Parent: No, we're not going to pay you. You didn't mow the lawn.

 

Babysitter: You never said anything about mowing the lawn. I was watching the 1-year-old. It's 11 p.m. at night.

 

Parent: You could have mowed the lawn while she was asleep. What have you been doing since then? Sitting and watching television? No, we're not going to pay you until you mow the lawn. And trim the hedges, too.

The current status is now, he has released the second milestone money and back with few more changes. I have done most of them except 2 and now he wants to review again. 

Upon asking to fund the next milestone due to the tight schedule of the third milestone ( 27th August), he is saying he can't. According to him, Upwork has no say in asking the client to fund the milestone. I have given him a screenshot of the milestones where there is a note " Please ask your client to fund and activate this milestone".
Now he is holding me at gunpoint, saying he is going to file a dispute.
I am completing the remaining two changes and leaving the project. This all discussion is over Whatsapp chat, as mentioned earlier he doesn't come over upwork chat. 
Guide me on how to proceed if he files a dispute since this is the first time for me. 

I have never dealt with a dispute so I can't help you with that. But I am a
little confused about the situation. If you do the 2 changes and he reviews
and everything is okay, will he release the last milestone? What is he
disputing?

Are you a top-rated client. If so, and he does not give you a "good"
rating, you can ask that this be deleted. (that is if you are a top-rated
client and this applies to only so many over a certain time period, etc.)

Let me know if I can help you further.

Sue

Thanks Sue for a prompt reply,

If you do the 2 changes and he reviews and everything is okay, will he release the last milestone? What is he
disputing?


He has already released the second milestone payment. He is saying, that he is going to review for ( more ) changes. There is one change ( apart from 2 ) that he wants and is more of theme customization. I have already told him earlier that I am not sure if we can do it. Now he has taken that point as a dispute mentioning that the list of changes is not complete.

Now he is saying; that the project was delayed due to a change in theme. However, the fact is we jointly discussed and finalized a WordPress theme. He bought it, later asked me to make customization. Those customization were tricky and even the theme author surrendered & refunded him. Again we discussed and finalized another theme. He bought it, the same story wanted changes in the theme. Now every time we discuss something, he shares new changes.

In all this, I completed the website just with one day delay. However, he came with a long list of changes. I already told him that this will delay the live site to which he didn't bother. In between that, he went dormant for a couple of days.

The reason I see him holding me at gunpoint ( dispute threat ) is that I have refused to make more changes. I have already spent almost one month in this getting only $100 & have not bid for other jobs. I am in a total loss.
one more point, I gave him free support for bugs after project completion. However, he converted it into a milestone of 20% project cost. I agreed to it thinking him a nice guy, my mistake. Smartly, he stretched the project to a month now and not going to pay me for the support work too. 

Yes, I am a top-rated freelancer and will certainly remove his feedback. 

A really nasty client. If he disputes. Follow everything Upwork tells you to do. But you may have to take it to arbitration, but I don't think it will go as far, because I doubt your client has the money for that. 

 

Don't agree to do any more changes. As Preston said, "mowing the lawn" was not in the remit. 

Thank you for the clarification. Send the documented info as others advised
to Upwork (or tell him you are going to do that first and maybe he will
pay?). Get whatever money you can and then go from there.

I am sorry that you are not fully getting paid for what you did.

Good luck on securing new jobs and move on...
m_sharman
Community Member


Abhishek R wrote:


I am completing the remaining two changes and leaving the project. This all discussion is over Whatsapp chat, as mentioned earlier he doesn't come over upwork chat. 
Guide me on how to proceed if he files a dispute since this is the first time for me. 


I recommend you screenshot the discussions from WhatsApp and then send a message via Upwork chat which basically "confirms" your discussion off platform. INCLUDE the screenshots as attachments.

Something simple like:

Per our discussion on WhatsApp, these are next steps for this project..blah blah

 

I'm not sure, but I would think this approach would ensure the off-platform discussions are available in the event of a dispute.


Miriam H wrote:

Abhishek R wrote:


I am completing the remaining two changes and leaving the project. This all discussion is over Whatsapp chat, as mentioned earlier he doesn't come over upwork chat. 
Guide me on how to proceed if he files a dispute since this is the first time for me. 


I recommend you screenshot the discussions from WhatsApp and then send a message via Upwork chat which basically "confirms" your discussion off platform. INCLUDE the screenshots as attachments.

Something simple like:

Per our discussion on WhatsApp, these are next steps for this project..blah blah

 

I'm not sure, but I would think this approach would ensure the off-platform discussions are available in the event of a dispute.


 

I agree with Miriam. 

 

As I mentioned earlier anticipate he will ask for a refund.  This project was a disaster from the beginning.  No refund, but if he doesn't fund additional milestones you cannot complete the project.  

 

I've never been in a dispute but make sure you have all the information confirming you've done what was asked of you and should be paid accordingly.  

Thanks Mariam & Robin for your valuable inputs. I will put whatsapp screenshot over chat window and make him aware of the fact that things are being recorded. Thanks again.

asr28
Community Member

Here is the latest update.

He was blaming me for the delay so I mentioned the whole story over the Upwork message box in points & pasted WhatsApp last conversation screenshot. I am sure he was shocked since after that he was very specific and funded the next milestone ( 3rd milestone- shop section) very next day. Looking at his past behavior I didn't accept the milestone since the dates were not acceptable to me. I shared my terms along with the 4th milestone of support for 1week. FYI, 4th milestone was free support of one month up to 31st August however I agreed to him with 20% project cost as the 4th milestone. Now he wanted that support milestone to extended to 30th September. I gave him my best option of up to 10th September. Finally, he canceled the contract today & requested the refund of the 3rd milestone of 'Shop Section'.
Now here is my question & needs community's guidance- 

I worked for his corporate website and he made me do changes up to his wish for almost 20 days. During the engagement period, I worked over his shop section as well which was supposed to be 3rd milestone, but yes that was not completed since he wanted corporate website changes to be done first. In short, he made me work over the shop section and also took support for about 20 days. Now his 3rd milestone (shop section) payment is in Escrow and he has requested a refund. Can I file a dispute & ask for partial payment for the support provided and the work done over the shop section? 
Please note all the data and website were developed on his server and he has everything with him.


Abhishek R wrote:

Here is the latest update.

He was blaming me for the delay so I mentioned the whole story over the Upwork message box in points & pasted WhatsApp last conversation screenshot. I am sure he was shocked since after that he was very specific and funded the next milestone ( 3rd milestone- shop section) very next day. Looking at his past behavior I didn't accept the milestone since the dates were not acceptable to me. I shared my terms along with the 4th milestone of support for 1week. FYI, 4th milestone was free support of one month up to 31st August however I agreed to him with 20% project cost as the 4th milestone. Now he wanted that support milestone to extended to 30th September. I gave him my best option of up to 10th September. Finally, he canceled the contract today & requested the refund of the 3rd milestone of 'Shop Section'.
Now here is my question & needs community's guidance- 

I worked for his corporate website and he made me do changes up to his wish for almost 20 days. During the engagement period, I worked over his shop section as well which was supposed to be 3rd milestone, but yes that was not completed since he wanted corporate website changes to be done first. In short, he made me work over the shop section and also took support for about 20 days. Now his 3rd milestone (shop section) payment is in Escrow and he has requested a refund. Can I file a dispute & ask for partial payment for the support provided and the work done over the shop section? 
Please note all the data and website were developed on his server and he has everything with him.


Bear in mind that a client is under no obligation to proceed with unactivated milestones. If he had closed the job after paying for the second milestone (without activating the third one) you would have had no grounds to dispute a refund of escrow. Now that he has activated the third milestone that money is potentially available to you. But the work that you did on the shop section was done during the time of the second milestone, and I don't know whether an arbitrator would be willing to count that as work done toward the third milestone. So going to arbitration would probably not be worth the risk.

 

I would go through the Upwork mediation process, which doesn't cost you anything, and suggest a compromise where you receive part of the money for the third milestone.

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