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vpuller
Community Member

Client disabled manula time

Ihave worked for a client for several months for a fixed weekly salary. It was set as a maximum number of manual hours per week with the specified hourly rate. Such an arrangement was partially justified by the nature of my job, but also because I do not feel like being monitored in real time.

Now the client decided to transfer the project to someone else, so he asked me to document my code and disabled the manual time, saying that this part of the job could be done with a time tracker.

I object such a unilateral change of terms, and I also think that my hourly rate should be higher in this case. Can I simply close the contract? The repercussion is that I will be leaving the client with the undocumented code.

ACCEPTED SOLUTION
prestonhunter
Community Member

Clients may allow or not allow manual time.

 

Freelancers may work for clients who disallow manual time, or freelancers may choose to NOT do so.

 

That seems extraordinarily fair.

 

Can you simply close the contract? Of course you can. Freelancers may close a contract at any time.

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38 REPLIES 38
prestonhunter
Community Member

Clients may allow or not allow manual time.

 

Freelancers may work for clients who disallow manual time, or freelancers may choose to NOT do so.

 

That seems extraordinarily fair.

 

Can you simply close the contract? Of course you can. Freelancers may close a contract at any time.

Thanks! I also think that I am within my rights terminating this contract.

While you're within your rights to refuse this request, you should also be aware that a bad feedback review on a $15,000 project would result in a significant hit to your job success score, once you qualify for one. So you might want to try and come to an agreement with your client instead of just abruptly ending the project.
martina_plaschka
Community Member


Vadim P wrote:

Ihave worked for a client for several months for a fixed weekly salary. It was set as a maximum number of manual hours per week with the specified hourly rate. Such an arrangement was partially justified by the nature of my job, but also because I do not feel like being monitored in real time.

Now the client decided to transfer the project to someone else, so he asked me to document my code and disabled the manual time, saying that this part of the job could be done with a time tracker.

I object such a unilateral change of terms, and I also think that my hourly rate should be higher in this case. Can I simply close the contract? The repercussion is that I will be leaving the client with the undocumented code.


If you tell the client that your hourly rate is higher if you use the time tracker than if you use manual time - how do you think the client will feel about this?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the time tracker if you are working on the client's project, or am I missing something?

@MartinaP I think not every job can be measured in hours. But the point here is that he unilaterally changed the terms of the contract, without my prior agreement. How do I feel about this?

petra_r
Community Member


Vadim P wrote:

@MartinaP I think not every job can be measured in hours. But the point here is that he unilaterally changed the terms of the contract, without my prior agreement. How do I feel about this?


The whole point of hourly contracts is that they ARE measured in hours.

 

Manual time is a priviledge, not some kind of god given right.

 

Personally I think walking away from a client who's paid you over $ 15,000 while leaving the client in the lurch with undocumented code is pretty poor behaviour. It is very likely that the client's feedback will reflect that.

 

Christine A wrote:
While you're within your rights to refuse this request, you should also be aware that a bad feedback review on a $15,000 project would result in a significant hit to your job success score, once you qualify for one. 

All contracts over $ 1000 "weigh" the same though, so that $ 15k will weigh the same as the $ 3.5k one.

 


Petra R wrote:

Vadim P wrote:

@MartinaP I think not every job can be measured in hours. But the point here is that he unilaterally changed the terms of the contract, without my prior agreement. How do I feel about this?


The whole point of hourly contracts is that they ARE measured in hours.

 

Manual time is a priviledge, not some kind of god given right.

 

Personally I think walking away from a client who's paid you over $ 15,000 while leaving the client in the lurch with undocumented code is pretty poor behaviour. It is very likely that the client's feedback will reflect that.

 

Christine A wrote:
While you're within your rights to refuse this request, you should also be aware that a bad feedback review on a $15,000 project would result in a significant hit to your job success score, once you qualify for one. 

All contracts over $ 1000 "weigh" the same though, so that $ 15k will weigh the same as the $ 3.5k one.

 


Really, I might as well just ask my clients to close the contract every time I reach $1k and start a new one.
My understanding was that the $1k was only an example.


Petra R wrote:

Vadim P wrote:

@MartinaP I think not every job can be measured in hours. But the point here is that he unilaterally changed the terms of the contract, without my prior agreement. How do I feel about this?


The whole point of hourly contracts is that they ARE measured in hours.

 

Manual time is a priviledge, not some kind of god given right.

 


 I would like to disagree with you there. Hourly contracts, particularly in professional services are more a pricing communication and negotiations tool rather than work measurement tool. At the end of day, client does not care how much a specific professional job (software development) would take, as long as provider meets the deadline. What client care about is the total budget, so provider at the beginning needs to communicate timing expectations.

 

Use of tracking software in this scenario is really not mandatory or frankly not warranted - again in professional services contracts, people tend to spend quite a bit of time thinking rather than performing any activity that can be captured by the software. insistence on the client's part to track activity indicates that the client is ready and willing to dispute time spend on "non-productive activity" (i.e. thinking) and this is why provider would naturally would ask for higher rate to get to the same total compensation.

In some extreme cases you might have a "non-productive" time that takes like 50%-75% of the time. I had a client that wanted a specific Javascript program that could been developed in two ways - traditional way with circa 70-100 lines of code which then required quite a bit of debugging or one-line formula which did not require any debugging as it was mathematically-proven and was probably 1000x faster. If at that time I used a tracker for this specific part of the program, than the client would see an hour of black screen and than 1 minute of code typing. Per Upwork rules, I would imagine that the whole hour of thinking could be disallowed. Obviously I still spent a few hours doing the UI coding, so even if the client would have refused to pay for one hour of thinking, I would still made money, but I would have definetely asked for a higher rate if I new this risk.    

 

Obviously this argument is not valid for jobs that are volume-driven, such as translation. Don't take it wrong, translation requires thinking, but once you read the source, identify key terms and maybe build small dictionary, translation work becomes pretty much volume-driven.  


Ivan S wrote:

Obviously this argument is not valid for jobs that are volume-driven, such as translation. 


Would you appreciate me lecturing you on financial modelling oder coding? No?

 

Funny that.

 

Of course I wouldn't have the sheer ignorance (or nerve) to try and lecture people on stuff I haven't the faintest idea about. 

 

At the end of the day, my point was that on Upwork, the platform gives the client the right to turn manual time on or off at any given time. 

There is also no protection for manual time. 

 

So yes, on Upwork hourly contracts are measured in hours. I took the trouble of asking someone who does know, and they said that documenting code is not something that requires or would usually involve the freelancer sitting in a darkened corner in deep thought to find a miracle solution-

 


Ivan S wrote:

insistence on the client's part to track activity indicates that the client is ready and willing to dispute time spend on "non-productive activity" (i.e. thinking) and this is why provider would naturally would ask for higher rate to get to the same total compensation.

If at that time I used a tracker for this specific part of the program, than the client would see an hour of black screen and than 1 minute of code typing. Per Upwork rules, I would imagine that the whole hour of thinking could be disallowed. Obviously I still spent a few hours doing the UI coding, so even if the client would have refused to pay for one hour of thinking, I would still made money, but I would have definetely asked for a higher rate if I new this risk.    .  


Nope. A client who is getting ready to dispute would encourage the use of manual time. Because with manual time, the client wins any dispute by default for all of it, EVERY SINGLE LAST MINUTE of manual time, not just the 1 hour of thinking time.

vpuller
Community Member

@IvanS @PetraR

What happens, if a client wins a dispute over the manual time? Does he get to keep the money and the work? Otherwise, if he has a code that was written during the disputed time, he may face problems with the code ownership.

petra_r
Community Member


Vadim P wrote:

@IvanS @PetraR

What happens, if a client wins a dispute over the manual time? Does he get to keep the money and the work? Otherwise, if he has a code that was written during the disputed time, he may face problems with the code ownership.


A client will win any dispute over manual time. Every time. By default.

 

Good question over the work ownership and I am pretty sure that is one can of worms Upwork would rather not open...  When clients hire hourly, they buy time spent working, not a product as such. Which is why clients can never win disputes over properly tracked time, even if the end product ultimately doesn't work at all.

 

I don't know if you can prove what portion of the code was written when, so it would be harder to prove what portion of the code was or was not owned. 

 

Nightmare all round and Upwork would not get in the middle of that. That would then be between the client and you.


Vadim P wrote:

@MartinaP I think not every job can be measured in hours. But the point here is that he unilaterally changed the terms of the contract, without my prior agreement. How do I feel about this?


The point is that the client decided to continue with a different freelancer, THAT is the real cause for your frustration. He now wants you to track your time using the tracker and transfer the work you did and got paid for. You should just do so in a professional manner and even offer to help the other freelancer during the transition. That might encourage the client to refer you to collegues or to come back if the other freelancer should fail. Sure, you could tell the client that your actual rate has increased, but if your proposal said $40 then $40 it is.

@ChristineA, @JenniferR
This conflict obviously has a history: the client and I have disagreed previously, and a few weeks ago I informed him about my desire to cease the collaboration. He however insisted that there was no one who was capable of doing it except me, and I continued - partially out of moral obligation, and partially to avoid escalating the tensions. Now, that he seems to have found a replacement for me, his behavior looks like a provocation. I could swallow pride and provide him with a commented code... but will it save me from a negative review?

Another thing: I will also review him. I wonder to what extent an established client is able to dissimulate a negative review.


Vadim P wrote:

@ChristineA, @JenniferR
This conflict obviously has a history: the client and I have disagreed previously, and a few weeks ago I informed him about my desire to cease the collaboration. He however insisted that there was no one who was capable of doing it except me, and I continued - partially out of moral obligation, and partially to avoid escalating the tensions. Now, that he seems to have found a replacement for me, his behavior looks like a provocation. I could swallow pride and provide him with a commented code... but will it save me from a negative review?

Another thing: I will also review him. I wonder to what extent an established client is able to dissimulate a negative review.


You have to be a professional. You wanted to quit working for this client there you go. I had clients I hated and discussed a lot and got 5*, I had clients that were great but left less. You never really know what happens. The most important thing is the agreement between you to and that you fullfil your part. The client might even be greatful that you continued until a replacement has been found and give you a bonus. If you get paid for the time you use from now on, use the tracker.

 

Clients can not hide the feedback they receive but other clients can see the feedback you left and might consider it when not hiring you.

@JenniferR
Everything you say is correct. But it applies to the client as well - I informed him that I wanted to be out, I didn't abandon him till he found a replacement, and by now I surely would have documented the code, if he didn't choose to escalate the tensions. Don't I have an obligation to the community to expose the abuse?


Vadim P wrote:

@JenniferR
Everything you say is correct. But it applies to the client as well - I informed him that I wanted to be out, I didn't abandon him till he found a replacement, and by now I surely would have documented the code, if he didn't choose to escalate the tensions. Don't I have an obligation to the community to expose the abuse?


It looks like you only disagree to use the tracker for the remaining work. I just don't get your problem. Where is the abuse?

@JenniferR
I suppose it wouldn't be professional to rehash here the details of my conflict with the client. I think however that changing the conditions of work without my agreement, and effectively blackmailing me with a bad review, if I do not comply, is enough to call it "abuse".

petra_r
Community Member


Vadim P wrote:

@JenniferR
I suppose it wouldn't be professional to rehash here the details of my conflict with the client. I think however that changing the conditions of work without my agreement, and effectively blackmailing me with a bad review, if I do not comply, is enough to call it "abuse".


You never mentioned any "blackmailing you with a bad review" previously. 

The client does not need your agreement to disable manual time. Also be aware that manual time is never protected. You would be well advised to not risk a dispute....


Vadim P wrote:

@JenniferR
I suppose it wouldn't be professional to rehash here the details of my conflict with the client. I think however that changing the conditions of work without my agreement, and effectively blackmailing me with a bad review, if I do not comply, is enough to call it "abuse".


Disallowing manual time is not really changing a contract. It would be however if the client would change the rate. This is a bullet you have to bite.

But this has been the first time that you mention the client blackmailing you. You might want to reread the ToS and maybe report the message.

Screenshot_2020-04-22 Upwork Legal Center(2).png

@JenniferR I didn't say that he is actually blackmailing me. But it seems obvious to everyone in this thread that I will suffer, if I do not comply with his demands.

I agree with you. Not everyone uses the time tracker, myself included, but what would bother me is a client making changes to the contract without talking to me first. That's just unprofessional especially given such a long relationship. I would email the client and say that you would like to finish out the contract in the manner that it was started—with manual time enabled. Put the ball back in their court. Also, I don't like to think of people being held hostage to reviews. As you said, you will be able to state your case when the time comes.


Michelle T wrote:

I agree with you. Not everyone uses the time tracker, myself included, but what would bother me is a client making changes to the contract without talking to me first. That's just unprofessional especially given such a long relationship. I would email the client and say that you would like to finish out the contract in the manner that it was started—with manual time enabled. Put the ball back in their court. Also, I don't like to think of people being held hostage to reviews. As you said, you will be able to state your case when the time comes.


If a freelancer works on an hourly contract using manual time and the client subsequently chooses to dispute that manual time (refusing to pay it), the freelancer does not get paid. If I were already suspicious that a client was planning to fire me or was unhappy with my work, I certainly would not continue to work and bill hours to the client using manual time. I would want to take the necessary steps to ensure that I would be paid for my work, including recording my hours using the time tracker. 


Tonya P wrote:

Michelle T wrote:

I agree with you. Not everyone uses the time tracker, myself included, but what would bother me is a client making changes to the contract without talking to me first. That's just unprofessional especially given such a long relationship. I would email the client and say that you would like to finish out the contract in the manner that it was started—with manual time enabled. Put the ball back in their court. Also, I don't like to think of people being held hostage to reviews. As you said, you will be able to state your case when the time comes.


If a freelancer works on an hourly contract using manual time and the client subsequently chooses to dispute that manual time (refusing to pay it), the freelancer does not get paid. If I were already suspicious that a client was planning to fire me or was unhappy with my work, I certainly would not continue to work and bill hours to the client using manual time. I would want to take the necessary steps to ensure that I would be paid for my work, including recording my hours using the time tracker. 


For those of us who rarely use the time tracker, we know the risks. If you have a difficult client, I'd cut the contract off sooner rather than later. It's not worth the hassle of working with someone who is changing the contract without notice or who might dispute hours. All you can do is remain professional and move on from those types of clients.


Vadim P wrote:

@JenniferR I didn't say that he is actually blackmailing me. But it seems obvious to everyone in this thread that I will suffer, if I do not comply with his demands.


You didn't?
Screenshot_2020-04-22 Client disabled manula time.png

@JenniferR I suppose "effectively" is a false translator's friend. What I mean is that I have to comply or risk a bad review, and it is obvious to everyone.

lysis10
Community Member


Vadim P wrote:

@ChristineA, @JenniferR
This conflict obviously has a history: the client and I have disagreed previously, and a few weeks ago I informed him about my desire to cease the collaboration. He however insisted that there was no one who was capable of doing it except me, and I continued - partially out of moral obligation, and partially to avoid escalating the tensions. Now, that he seems to have found a replacement for me, his behavior looks like a provocation. I could swallow pride and provide him with a commented code... but will it save me from a negative review?

Another thing: I will also review him. I wonder to what extent an established client is able to dissimulate a negative review.


lol you mad that he played you while he found a replacement. Well played, client. That's how it's done.

vpuller
Community Member

@JenniferM I am not mad. I don't like mind games. I prefer clear agreements and clear assignments, and everybody respecting their part of the deal.

lysis10
Community Member


Vadim P wrote:

@JenniferM I am not mad. I don't like mind games. I prefer clear agreements and clear assignments, and everybody respecting their part of the deal.


lol yes you are, you got played. Nothing against the rules for lying and playing on people's egos. lol

vpuller
Community Member

@JenniferM
I don't see how I got played. I told him that I wanted out of the project, and he found a replacement. That's normal. That he subotages the handover by trying to irritate me is stupid. He however put me in a dilemma: whether to stand up to him for the principle and the community, or to cave in to avoid a bad review.


Vadim P wrote:

@JenniferM
I don't see how I got played. I told him that I wanted out of the project, and he found a replacement. That's normal. That he subotages the handover by trying to irritate me is stupid. He however put me in a dilemma: whether to stand up to him for the principle and the community, or to cave in to avoid a bad review.


You're not "standing up for the community", since almost everybody here thinks that you should just turn on the time tracker and get on with it. I don't think that you're really standing up for yourself, either - you're just letting your ego get in the way of common sense. There's nothing unprincipled about trying to provide good customer service, and if you choose to do otherwise, you'll only be sabotaging yourself. 

I don't agree with any of this pussyfooting around a client who is practising a form of constructive dismissal. 

If this were me, I would take the risk and ask the client to close the contract as I do not agree to his new terms. 

I would also take the hit on my JSS. One can rebuild a JSS. That has been proved time and again. I would not continue with a client who behaves like an employer.  

 

@NicholaL
Thank you for saying this!


Vadim P wrote:


Another thing: I will also review him. I wonder to what extent an established client is able to dissimulate a negative review.


Bad reviews don't hurt clients anywhere near as much as they hurt freelancers. I've seen projects where a client has absolutely horrendous reviews and they'll still get 50+ bids. A lot of freelancers are desperate for work - especially right now when there's so much competition with those who have been laid off - and many would chew off their own arm for a contract worth tens of thousands of dollars. 

 

So if you're planning to threaten him with a bad review (or even imply that you will do so), I would stop right there. His request doesn't sound unreasonable to me. You told him that your previous work wasn't suited to using the timetracker, so he agreed to the manual time, but it sounds like you have no reason to not use it now. As others have said, it would be in your best interests, as well as more professional, to de-escalate the situation and co-operate. Many of us who use the timetracker find it annoying and intrusive (myself included) but whenever you sign up for an hourly contract, you're agreeing to the possibility that the client won't pay if you don't use it properly.

 

@ChristineA

I am certainly not going to threaten him. I simply want to be out of this situation. And the only solution seems to be to finish the work, even for free. And I feel that it would be morally right... but I am not sure that this guarantees a clean exit, since he might claim that there are problems with my documentation and this may drug on and on.

I think the project can end in a relatively good place if the freelancer uses the time tracker while adding additional code comments. The freelancer gets paid for his time. The client gets the work done that he wants done. The project benefits from additional code level documentation.

versailles
Community Member


Vadim P wrote:


I object such a unilateral change of terms, 


Vadim, do it. Stay professional, use the tracker (with the benefits that your work will be covered by the payment protection), comment the code in the best way you can, smile and wish all the best to the client and get done with them. Forget about pride, changes of terms, arguments, just do it.

 

 

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless

@ReneK
In practical terms, what worries me about the tracker is that the client might try to micromanage me in the real time.  I have no confidence that he is interested in the result more than in making his point.


Vadim P wrote:

@ReneK
In practical terms, what worries me about the tracker is that the client might try to micromanage me in the real time.  I have no confidence that he is interested in the result more than in making his point.


Maybe. Now that means that he has to be connected onto his client dashboard at the same time you are working and wait for the screen captures to show.

 

Remember that the tracker doesn't show them anything in real time. It keeps track of the levels of activity on your computer, and it takes random screen copies, one for each segment of 10 minutes.

 

 

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
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