Client dispute.

solokingjec · ‎08-25-2019

I got an invitation from a very new client who doesn't really understand upwork terms. He wanted a video streaming app and we agreed on a 2k budget. I asked him to fund the so that I could start working but he didn't have enough money. He only funded 50usds for app registration and signing in. I submitted the work for the milestone which he approved and he published the initial apk on playstore. We discussed further and he agreed to add 500usds for the second milestone. I waited for him to fund the milestone so that I could begin working but he delayed 2days. When he came back, he asked me on the progress but I explained to him that I could not have started work without the milestone being funded. He asked for a refund for the 1st milestone which I rejected considering I had already done 2days work on it. He has filed a dispute and upwork representative explained that we need to pay for arbitration amounting to 291$. Am very ready to pay for it because I can't risk my account closed. Is there another way of handling this beacuse now it seems like any client can sabotage someones account due to a mistake from a client?.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-25-2019

Francis N wrote:
I got an invitation from a very new client who doesn't really understand upwork terms. He wanted a video streaming app and we agreed on a 2k budget. I asked him to fund the so that I could start working but he didn't have enough money. He only funded 50usds for app registration and signing in. I submitted the work for the milestone which he approved and he published the initial apk on playstore. We discussed further and he agreed to add 500usds for the second milestone. I waited for him to fund the milestone so that I could begin working but he delayed 2days. When he came back, he asked me on the progress but I explained to him that I could not have started work without the milestone being funded. He asked for a refund for the 1st milestone which I rejected considering I had already done 2days work on it. He has filed a dispute and upwork representative explained that we need to pay for arbitration amounting to 291$. Am very ready to pay for it because I can't risk my account closed. Is there another way of handling this beacuse now it seems like any client can sabotage someones account due to a mistake from a client?.

Your account won't be closed just because of a dispute (what made you think this?). I would go for arbitration if I were you (or at least bluff it for awhile), because if your client didn't have more than $50 to pay you, then he obviously can't afford $291 for the arbitration fee.

solokingjec · ‎08-25-2019

Thanks a lot for the reply and concern. I am however worried on how this case was handled based on obvious facts. If any milestone is approved, it means that the client is satisfied with the work submitted. Its also obvious that any experienced freelancer will not begin working untill a milestone has been funded. I still don't know why the upwork representative overlooks this. Anyway, I am going to wait as you have suggested.

tlbp · ‎08-25-2019

So you had $50 funded and were paid.

I agree that you should not provide more work unless a milestone is funded. But, I don't think you will get to keep more than the $50 if you take it to arbitration because that's the value of the funded milestone and you haven't provided the client with any work beyond that value. (If I correctly understand what you've described.)

I would interpret the situation to mean that the client has decided to cancel the contract after the first milestone and now wants that money back. (I would say no to that.)

Upwork is telling you both that if you don't come to an agreement, you can both pay the fee to go through formal arbitration. You won't get any more help from the Upwork representative.

solokingjec · ‎08-25-2019

Hello Tonya.
I refunded him the 500$ for the second milestone but he wanted me to refund even the 50$ for the first milestone which he had already approved like 4days past. Its like he got angry because I refused to work without the milestone being fundend. I assumed he understood the terms and I did'nt want to pressure him to fund it. When he funded the milestone, I asked him to adjust the deadline to compensate the time lost waiting for the funding and he insisted that I should coplete the milestone on the earlier agreed time and it was obviously not likely.

prestonhunter · ‎08-25-2019

Francis:

Do NOT try to understand why the Upwork representative "doesn't understand" the details of this situation or why she is not "deciding in your favor." That is not her job. She isn't allowed to make decisions. She is not allowed to decide if you are right, or if the client is right.

Her job is to encourage you and the client to come to an agreement. If you can not come to an agreement, then you can choose to move to arbitration.

solokingjec · ‎08-25-2019

I honestly didn't want her to make a ruling to favour me but to use upwork terms and guidline. If she told me that am wrong, I could have refunded.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-25-2019

Francis N wrote:
I honestly didn't want her to make a ruling to favour me but to use upwork terms and guidline. If she told me that am wrong, I could have refunded.

That's not how disputes work - the mediator can't take sides. But after reading your additional posts, I'm confused now about why you're pursuing this. If you already refunded $500, then why are you digging in your heels over $50?

solokingjec · ‎08-25-2019

Its the client who insists that I should refund the 50$ for the first milestone.

prestonhunter · ‎08-25-2019

re: "Its the client who insists that I should refund the 50$ for the first milestone."

You have the option to refund that $50, and then this whole thing is over.

Your account will NOT be suspended if you issue a refund.

None of what this client has done is right. The client is quite likely a bad person. But it is not your responsibility to help the client do the right thing. You need to put yourself first.

If there is only $50 at stake now, it may simply not be worth your time and potential loss of $291 to go to arbitration.

I can not tell you what to do.

If you agree to pay $291 for arbitration, and the client does NOT want to do that, then you will get to keep the $50, and you will receive the $291 back.

If the client DOES pay $291, then you will never get your $291 back, even if you win $50 in arbitration.

solokingjec · ‎08-25-2019

I will refund him the 50$ as you have suggested immediately. Your explanation makes a lot of sense. Thank you. However, this makes escrow insignificant because still freelancers rely on the mercies of a client even when the funds have been released.

richard_wein · ‎08-25-2019

Francis N wrote:
I will refund him the 50$ as you have suggested immediately. Your explanation makes a lot of sense. Thank you. However, this makes escrow insignificant because still freelancers rely on the mercies of a client even when the funds have been released.

Yes, escrow has little value UNLESS you are willing to risk $291 for arbitration.

However, if you do pay the $291, it seems very unlikely that the client will do so too, since he has only $50 to win, and will probably realise that he's in the wrong and is unlikely even to win the $50 back. As Preston mentioned, if you pay for arbitration and the client doesn't, then you win the dispute by default and get your arbitration fee back. (But if the client pays too, arbitration goes ahead and you won't get the fee back even if you win.)

Anyway, I would suggest first pursuing Upwork's (non-binding) mediation as far as it goes, and politely making it clear to the client that he is in the wrong and you don't intend to give in. Perhaps he will back down. Unfortunately it costs him nothing to continue demanding a refund, in which case the onus is on you to decide whether to risk the $291 or refund the $50.

Good luck!

tlbp · ‎08-25-2019

I think the big-picture lesson here is that if a client agrees to pay a certain amount and then immediately starts trying to avoid committing that amount via escrow due to lack of funds, get rid of the client ASAP. If they don't have the money now, they aren't likely to have it later.

wlyonsatl · ‎08-25-2019

Don't refund money you have earned.

I try to avoid doing fixed price projects, but if I do one I write this to the client on the Upwork messaging system before agreeing to the contract:

"As you may know, under Upwork’s rules my work on each milestone will begin after a) the previous milestone's full amount has been released by you for payment and b) the next milestone is fully funded. Please let me know if you have any questions in this regard."

Many new clients make no attempt to understand how Upwork works. Unfortunately, the onus is often on freelancers to make sure the client knows what the rules are.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-25-2019

Back up for a minute here. The OP first said that he couldn't work on the second milestone because the client wouldn't fund it. Then he says that the second milestone WAS funded and he did two days of work, after which the client asked for, and received, a refund (and the OP doesn't seem resentful about refunding the second milestone, only the first). I think we're missing a piece of this puzzle.

solokingjec · ‎08-25-2019

The client did not fund the second milestone promptly and we had already set a dealine.

When he came back and fundend the milestone, the deadline was only in 2 days and he was insisting that I finish the milestone within the two days. I honestly told him that there was no possibility of submitting the work within the 2days. I didn't do any work on the 2nd milestone. I asked him to adjust the deadline to compensate for the lost time but he instead requested a refund. I could not have refused to refund the 500$ because I had not worked for it. Its the fisrt milestone I had worked for for two days.

kat303 · ‎08-25-2019

Francis N wrote:
The client did not fund the second milestone promptly and we had already set a dealine.
When he came back and fundend the milestone, the deadline was only in 2 days and he was insisting that I finish the milestone within the two days. I honestly told him that there was no possibility of submitting the work within the 2days. I didn't do any work on the 2nd milestone. I asked him to adjust the deadline to compensate for the lost time but he instead requested a refund. I could not have refused to refund the 500$ because I had not worked for it. Its the fisrt milestone I had worked for for two days.

I see ABSOLUTELY NO reason to refund the $50. You worked on and completed the 1st milestone.

If you refund that amount that will then be considered as a job with no money earned and a job with no money earned will affect your JSS.

It sounds like the client has more to lose then you. You have completed the requirements of the 1st milestone. so IMO there's nothing to dispute there, so that's in your favor. Besides, you've already refunded the amount in the 2nd milestone.

Is the client (who couldn't pay the initial asking price for their project) going to lose $291 in order to get $50 back?

It sounds like this is a cheap client who is trying to get as much work, as fast as possible for the least amount of money. If it were me, I would initiate arbitration.

petra_r · ‎08-25-2019

Kathy T wrote:
If you refund that amount that will then be considered as a job with no money earned and a job with no money earned will affect your JSS.

That ship has sailed. The contract is closed with poor feedback. Refunding won't make it worse.

Kathy T wrote:
It sounds like the client has more to lose then you. You have completed the requirements of the 1st milestone. so IMO there's nothing to dispute there, so that's in your favor. Besides, you've already refunded the amount in the 2nd milestone.
Is the client (who couldn't pay the initial asking price for their project) going to lose $291 in order to get $50 back?

It sounds like this is a cheap client who is trying to get as much work, as fast as possible for the least amount of money. If it were me, I would initiate arbitration.

Absolutely agree

kat303 · ‎08-25-2019

We only go by what the freelancer said. So, (and no offense to the OP) assuming that what was originally stated about this incident were true (and also not saying it wasn't) then this was Not a good client as shown in the feedback from the OP. And should not have been rated 5 stars. The OP should have Honestly rated the client, no venting etc, just short, sweet, professionally and to the point.

Never looked at the jobs done in the OP profile. Thought the job was still open and the dispute was ongoing. Goes to show that the client had no intention of going to arbitration and loosing the fee for maybe??? gaining the $50

solokingjec · ‎08-25-2019

I tried to convince the client to change the deadline but the client asked me to refund 500$ instead. Upto that far, I didn't see any significant reason for giving him a negative feedback for just asking his money back. I thought that his tight schedule was the problem and accepting to refund and giving him a good feedback could have helped him find a team which could do his work within that timeline. I gave him a feedback based on milestone 1 and I was also hoping that maybe in future he could come back and offer me a job. It's when I ended the contract and left a feedback that he insisted for a refund for the first milestone too and problems began. I always ensure that my clients are fully satisfied and anyone can see on my profile that I always get 5stars. This is my first dispute.