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dena-standley
Community Member

Client disputes payment

Client was unhappy with the first 1/2 of project and requested a refund. She stated there were “many typos” and that I only did half the job. She said she was pleased with the content, but did not want to complete the rest of the contract. Now, she is disputing wanting to pay anything. I clearly stated I could not even START the job until the 16th of Sept. and we agreed to do it in 15 page increments. There were two typos and 3 punctuation mistakes in 15 pages, which I immediately apologized for and revised immediately. (This was a content edit). She later said that my edits made her story more relatable and engaging, but she preferred her own “fancy writing.” What do I do? She opened the dispute. Right now, it simply says closed and “no feedback given.” If I dispute her allegations, can she then leave feedback? Can she leave feedback if I just agree to the refund? Which is the biggest hit to JSS, a negative review or refunded job? I am also frustrated because this represented a lot of hard work, and on content editing you expect to do a revision or two. She didn’t want any revisions. As the person before, I took a chance on a new employer and I don’t think she intended to pay regardless of the work. Frustrating that sometimes no matter how carefully you screen clients or the quality of work you provide, freelancers always risk either not getting paid or negative reviews (or both) even when work was done well and submitted early. I have the screenshots from Upwork messenger where we agreed that I would submit the work 1/2 at a time. For her to use in the dispute that I only did “1/2 the job” frustrates me. So, continue the dispute (which given that I can prove most of her allegations as false. What wasn’t fault, I fixed immediately and said I would continue to revise until she was happy). Best suggestion to protect reputation and JSS?
Thanks.
ACCEPTED SOLUTION

Upwork losing 100% of its fees due to frivolous client requests for refunds is a good reason for Upwork to do something about refunds for these clients. Taking money out of Upwork's pocket must get management's attention.

 

What can Upwork do? Beats me.

 

Other than tracking a client's pattern of behavior, which Upwork clearly already does with both freelancers and clients, and refusing a client's excessive requests for refunds. (What is "excessive"? That's up to Upwork to decide.)

 

If Upwork complies without question with all refund requests from clients who have shown a pattern of regularly requesting refunds that Upwork says it can't say "No" to, that would be very disappointing to freelancers who work hard for their money.

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27 REPLIES 27
abinadab-agbo
Community Member

Before a client can close a contract, they must leave feedback.

So, feedback has already been left for you on that contract, and it's most likely negative.

Your JSS has already taken quite a beating (you'll see it in the next update).

 

So your choice is between,

- the other JSS hit that will arise from a zero-earnings contract, and 

- the other JSS hit that will arise from a dispute.

 

You must choose one of the two Devils, good sis.

The two Devils are both terrible.

tlsanders
Community Member

The dispute process isn't about proving anything. No one will be looking at your evidence. Someone from Upwork will try to help the two of you come to an agreement. If you can't come to an agreement, they will NOT make a ruling. Your options at that point will be to pay for arbitration or to let the money be returned to the client. No pay contracts are bad for JSS. 

 

Depending on your priority, you may want to either negotiate for partial payment or stand firm and go to arbitration (where someone WILL look at your evidence and make a ruling). It will cost you $291, though. You don't get that back even if you win, but you do get it back if you pay and the client backs down and doesn't pay her portion.

re: "Frustrating that sometimes no matter how carefully you screen clients or the quality of work you provide, freelancers always risk either not getting paid or negative reviews (or both) even when work was done well and submitted early."

 

I agree.

 

I'm seeing too much of this reported in the Community Forum.

 

And I have seen some bad behavior among some of my own clients.

 

I don't know if this is a trend? If there was some change in marketing? If I'm just imagining this getting worse?

 

But whatever it is...

 

I'm not going to be surprised if clients - as a whole - "jump the shark" on this issue and push Upwork too far... If too many clients ask for refunds, maybe Upwork will say "enough already" and place tight restrictions on the practice.

So there really is no way to help yourself in this situation? That’s extremely disappointing as I have been working very hard to maintain a decent reputation on this site and hoped for top-rated. I have been overall very happy with the platform, but you guys are saying someone can just decide to not pay and leave negative private feedback, regardless of the job you have done for them?

Any suggestions for keeping this from happening again? As a new freelancer, I have to occasionally take chances with new clients (and some of my favorite clients were the first time I accepted a job from them). I had everything in writing, and somehow thought that offered some protection. So, $291 to have Upwork look at it, for a job that was worth less than that? No way to dispute private feedback? So the client wins by default every time and they know this? IF that is how it works, I am surprised we get paid as frequently as we do.


Dena S wrote:
Any suggestions for keeping this from happening again? As a new freelancer, I have to occasionally take chances with new clients (and some of my favorite clients were the first time I accepted a job from them). I had everything in writing, and somehow thought that offered some protection. So, $291 to have Upwork look at it, for a job that was worth less than that?

No. $291 to have an outside arbitrator look at it. Upwork, as an escrow agent, can't make a ruling. If you go to arbitration, you pay 1/3 of the arbitrator's fee, the client pays 1/3, and Upwork pays 1/3.

No way to dispute private feedback?

There's no way to dispute any feedback, from either side, unless it violates one of a few very narrowly defined rules. Anything else would be an unmanageable nightmare, as hundreds of people every day demanded a review of feedback they didn't like. And, of course, you can't SEE your private feedback, so it would be tough to claim it was inaccurate with any credibility.

So the client wins by default every time and they know this?

That's not remotely true. A lot of freelancers go to arbitration and win. In fact, I've only ever seen one freelancer say she went to arbitration and lost, and she made some obviously fatal mistakes in the arbitration process. 
Other times, the freelancer puts up the $291 and the client backs down rather than paying, and then the freelancer gets the money in escrow and the $291 back.
It is a problem, though, for freelancers who do a lot of small jobs, since it's usually not cost-effective to arbitrate. That's what bad clients bank on.
IF that is how it works, I am surprised we get paid as frequently as we do.

 

Most clients (like most freelancers, as your issue here illustrates) don't take the time to truly understand the system before contracting. So, many are unaware that they can often steal small jobs because the freelancer won't arbitrate. And, of course, a client who wants to continue to use Upwork can't make a practice of this. Finally, and most importantly, most clients pay the people who provide them services--the Upwork system isn't remotely necessary for that. Clients outside the platform regularly pay their bills without escrow and mediation.


 

I do understand your point, and I feel client would not pay to arbitrate, but that’s a large risk as even winning would not put me at break even. Please understand, I love Upwork, and I do believe most people are honest. I am just frustrated as my JSS will suffer regardless of what I do. I offered every concession and apology possible, will not get paid and will suffer serious hit to a JSS. I know it’s a lesson learned, but I am not sure I could have avoided this situation. Thanks for the helpful and honest information.

Wait, was this an hourly job? Did you use the time tracker?

 

I assumed fixed price when you mentioned the dispute, but I looked at your profile and the job that seems to match this story was hourly.


Tiffany S wrote:

Wait, was this an hourly job? Did you use the time tracker?

 

I assumed fixed price when you mentioned the dispute, but I looked at your profile and the job that seems to match this story was hourly.


It's the hourly contract with the 2.75 feedback, so the dispute process is very simple:

 

Upwork looks at the work diary (ONLY) and the freelancer wins if

  • the time was tracked with the time tracker (not as manual time)

AND

  • there were adequate activity levels

AND

  • there were meaningful work memos describing the work done

AND

  • all screenshots show only work related activity

Any hours where any (!) one or more of the above do not apply, the client wins the dispute for.

There is no arbitration and no looking at who said / promised / demanded / wanted what.

All that matters is the work diary.


Dena S wrote:
Any suggestions for keeping this from happening again? As a new freelancer, I have to occasionally take chances with new clients (and some of my favorite clients were the first time I accepted a job from them). I had everything in writing, and somehow thought that offered some protection. So, $291 to have Upwork look at it, for a job that was worth less than that? No way to dispute private feedback? So the client wins by default every time and they know this? IF that is how it works, I am surprised we get paid as frequently as we do.

Maybe break your jobs into smaller milestones. It might be a little bit of a hassle but if, say, you did one or two chapters as a milestone (at least for the first couple of milestones) then you would never have invested a lot of time without getting paid.


Dena S wrote:
So there really is no way to help yourself in this situation? That’s extremely disappointing as I have been working very hard to maintain a decent reputation on this site and hoped for top-rated. I have been overall very happy with the platform, but you guys are saying someone can just decide to not pay and leave negative private feedback, regardless of the job you have done for them?

Well, no. You can choose to go to arbitration, as described above. Of course a client can leave whatever feedback they feel is appropriate--feedback is subjective, and that's true of every customer of every type of business on virtually every platform where feedback is an option.

I agree with feedback being subjective, but when it’s kept private we can’t learn anything from it. Again, looking back, I NOW realized this client never intended to pay for a job, and I am concerned this will become an ongoing issue on Upwork.

And, I should expect a serious hit on JSS since I have less than 10 closed jobs right?

Just wondering, Dena.

Did you read the final post on page one of this thread already?

This contains all the information you will need to continue defending your dispute.

And, by the way, 92% JSS is actually a very respectable score for a relative newcomer.   🙂

Best of luck!

 

I have appreciated all the input. The client and I decided to do a flat rate, but she had set it up as an hourly contract (new client who didn’t know how to do it). So, in messenger here, we agreed to just split the work into two parts and I would manually enter time to equal 1/2 the payment. I know, now, that it was a mistake. I understand the money is gone, and chalking it up to another lesson learned. My only question is do I just approve the refund? And how do I best mitigate the damage to JSS? Thank you!


Dena S wrote:
 The client and I decided to do a flat rate, but she had set it up as an hourly contract (new client who didn’t know how to do it). So, in messenger here, we agreed to just split the work into two parts and I would manually enter time to equal 1/2 the payment. I know, now, that it was a mistake. I understand the money is gone, and chalking it up to another lesson learned. My only question is do I just approve the refund? And how do I best mitigate the damage to JSS? Thank you!

That was a bad idea. It means however many hours the client chooses to dispute, she will win by default.


You might as well just accept the dispute because you will lose it anyway.

How to best mitigate the damage to your JSS... did that contract end before or after the last update?

 

In general, the only way is having a bunch of contracts end really well...

 

Hi!

I would suggest that no further action is required on your part.
Do not approve or reject the refund request, at least just to delay the
client's money a little 😉
The client will eventually get their money after a few days, whether you
dispute or not.
If you dispute your JSS will take a greater hit as disputes do indeed
affect the JSS (separately from the negative review, and also separately
from the fact that you earned nothing from that contract).


Abinadab A wrote:


If you dispute your JSS will take a greater hit as disputes do indeed
affect the JSS (separately from the negative review, and also separately
from the fact that you earned nothing from that contract).


The damage is done. This is an HOURLY contract and disputes only have an additional negative effect in some fairly rare cases, not automatically. Most of the time they have no "additional" negative effect at all.

 

There is no benefit to delaying the outcome, other than sheer malice.

 

There might indeed be benefit to the OP in delaying the outcome by a few days by failing to take action.

The "zero-pay contract effect" on her JSS might not take effect by the next update if she delays a little (next JSS update is this Sunday). I say "might" because I don't know the exact timeline for the dispute - I don't know the date the refund request was initiated.

 

If she delays a little, the JSS hit might be small, and she might be able to do two contracts within the next week or two to neutralise the next one.

And yes, disputes on hourly contracts do have an additional effect separate from the negative review. Though I can't comment on if that's is also the case in a contract where all the time is manual time.

 


Abinadab A wrote:

There might indeed be benefit to the OP in delaying the outcome by a few days by failing to take action.

 


The contract has already ended, she already got bad feedback, public and private, it is already going to count as negative in Sunday's update, and if she accepts the dispute rather than losing after arguing for no good reason and losing it anyway, there will be no "additional" negative outcome.

 

Disputes do not automatically add more negativity to an already entirely negative outcome.

Thank you. Unfortunately, it will change dramatically at the next update. Any suggestions to recover it as quickly as possible?


Dena S wrote:
Thank you. Unfortunately, it will change dramatically at the next update. Any suggestions to recover it as quickly as possible?

The only way to rehabilitate a sub-par JSS is to accumulate enough closed contracts with perfect feedback to outweigh the existing ones in the score. Obviously, you want to achieve that as soon as you can, but don't let that sense of urgency overwhelm you. Early on, when you still have relatively few closed projects on your history, it's more important than it will ever be again to choose only best-fit projects and best-fit clients. It can feel like a no-win situation but it's not--it just calls for patience, focus, discipline, and persistence.

 

One thing I would add: never, ever submit anything to a client without a thorough proof-read. It doesn't matter if it's understood to be a draft, or an interim product, work-in-progress or whatever. In the event you find yourself tied up with an unreasonable client or things don't go as expected for whatever reason, work with typos or grammatical errors just hands them free ammunition and it's unnecessary.  Sure, we are all human and a wee error slips by from time to time. But if you make this a guiding principle, then those errors will happen a LOT less often.

Dena - is this job a Fixed rate job with funds in escrow or is this an hourly job?

If this is an hourly job, please read Petra's response. On hourly jobs, there is no arbitration or arbitration fee. It all depends on how you used the Tracker.

 

If this was a fixed rate job, then it doesn't matter what course you take because the damage is already done If the client closed the contract then they had to leave both public and private feedback. And if you refund the monies in escrow it will count as a job with no money earned and that will have an affect on your JSS. 

 

IMO if this was fixed rate, go for arbitration.Pay the fee. It's highly unlikely the client will also pay the fee since she doesn't want to pay you anyway for your work. She's not going to lose the arbitration fee to get back the funds in escrow that are less then the fee. So, if the client doesn't pay the fee and you do, you get the fee back plus whatever was deposited into escrow. (depending on whether this was fixed rate)

Preston,

 

If a milestone payment of $200 has been completed by Upwork, the freelancer could receive $160 and Upwork could keep $40 as its 20% fee.

 

If the $200 payment is refunded to the client in full, is the freelancer contributing $160 to the refund and Upwork refunds the remaining 40%?


Will L wrote:

Preston,

 


I'm not Preston, but

 


Will L wrote:

 

If a milestone payment of $200 has been completed by Upwork, the freelancer could receive $160 and Upwork could keep $40 as its 20% fee.

 

If the $200 payment is refunded to the client in full, is the freelancer contributing $160 to the refund and Upwork refunds the remaining 40%?


Indeed. The freelancer refunds $ 200, of which $ 160 comes from their available (or pending) balance, and $ 40 from Upwork adding back the fee.

Upwork losing 100% of its fees due to frivolous client requests for refunds is a good reason for Upwork to do something about refunds for these clients. Taking money out of Upwork's pocket must get management's attention.

 

What can Upwork do? Beats me.

 

Other than tracking a client's pattern of behavior, which Upwork clearly already does with both freelancers and clients, and refusing a client's excessive requests for refunds. (What is "excessive"? That's up to Upwork to decide.)

 

If Upwork complies without question with all refund requests from clients who have shown a pattern of regularly requesting refunds that Upwork says it can't say "No" to, that would be very disappointing to freelancers who work hard for their money.

Thanks everyone. I feel no less frustrated, especially because I genuinely trusted this client. In the end, she did not want her content edited (although it NEEDED it), and I paid the price. The hit to JSS is much more concerning than the money lost. I am learning as I go, but I do think Upwork should do something about clients demanding refunds for frivolous or false reasons, but overall I still love the platform. Thank you for each taking the time to help educate me a little more. It looks like I will be back to trying to hunt small, short jobs to mitigate the damage ASAP (I know it’s a long process).
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