Client is asking for a refund but the job is ...

almukhambetov · ‎12-30-2022

Hi!

My client approved the milestone. At the moment I didn't know if he was satisfied with my work as he didn't provide any valuable feedback. After the payment was made he requested a refund. As he told me: "After thinking more about this and talking to some folks who I respect, I am not satisfied with the work and do not feel that I will be able to use your deliverables at all."
During the work, the client asked for multiple corrections but never said that he is not satisfied with the work.

So now it looks like he received what he needed, and doesn't want to pay for it, manipulating that would not like to leave me negative feedback.

He also said: "I would like a refund. Since you were nice to work with, I'd like to settle this with you directly. If you agree to this, let's do the refund and go our separate ways. I will not leave a review or contact UpWork indicating my lack of satisfaction with the outcome.

If you are not amenable to the above, then I will have no choice but to reach out to UpWork to resolve this. Again, I'd prefer to not do this because you were nice to work with. It just wasn't a fit and that's part of the process with UpWork."

Very manipulative, isn't it?

I'm wondering if I'm secure and if I'll get my money in a 100% volume.

The contract is not ended yet.

tlsanders · ‎12-30-2022

"Just not being a fit" means you don't work together in the future, not that you don't get paid for the work you already delivered.

Arguably, his veiled threat could be construed as feedback manipulation.

williamtcooper · ‎12-30-2022

Hey Tiffany, unfortunately on rare occasions Clients will use that approach to manipulate.

jeremiah-brown · ‎12-30-2022

Unsatisfactory work and buyers remorse are two different things. This is buyer remorse.

The client had an opportunity to review the deliverables and made the choice to approve the milestone. The client's time and opportunity to discuss dissatisfaction was prior to approving the milestone.

You and the client agreed to a goal at the start of the contract. You invested your time into a milestone on the way towards that goal. That milestone is, by its very definition, a periodic goalpost to determine the direction of the overall project. It is a point where the client can decide to continue moving forward, change course, or to part ways. You performed work, the client approved that work, you are entitled to compensation for your time and efforts. How you handle this going forward is what really builds your experience as a business owner, even more than the work itself.

Tact and candor are the tools you need to employ at this point.

williamtcooper · ‎12-30-2022

Hey Nail, as you mentioned the Client can leave a negative Feedback. Would both of you be comfortable with a compromise which is a partial refund? I always get on the phone and compromise if necessary; rare, however I know it can happen. I view it as a business learning lesson on what types of people to work with or pass on. This is my experience after 320 Client Projects. Have a great Friday!

prestonhunter · ‎12-30-2022

re: "Client is asking for a refund but the job is already completed and paid"

This client should NOT be asking for a refund.

The behavior you are describing is unprofessional, unethical, and immoral.

When a client hires a freelancer to do the task, and then the freelancer does the task, then the client should pay the freelancer. And never ask for a refund. When a client asks for a refund for work that he already received, the client is simply trying to steal money from the freelancer.

almukhambetov · ‎12-30-2022

I have a feeling that the client himself does not know what result he wants, so he was influenced by the opinions of these folks. I did a good job and spent a lot of time. Preston, does Upwork have the right to force me to give him a partial refund? And what is your recommendation on replying to his negative feedback when he will leave it?

jeremiah-brown · ‎12-30-2022

The longer you work as a freelancer (or as someone who is self-emplyed in general), the more you will encounter customers/clients that don't know what they want.

It is not your job to determine how someone spends their money. Likewise, it is not your job to hold the customer/client's hand. A customer/client's inability to commit to a decision is only your problem when it robs you of something - like your time and talents.

In this case, the client has changed their mind after commiting to the decision that the work was acceptable (thereby releasing the funds for that milestone). Receiving compensation for your time and talent is part of business. Giving away your time and talents is part of charity. Both are respectable ventures but you need to decide which one you want to be.

almukhambetov · ‎12-30-2022

Indeed, the more I work as a freelancer, the more I encounter clients that don't know what they want.

Of course, I'm not going to refund the money. I'm not giving away my time for free for clients.

I understand that this guy will leave negative feedback to which I'm going to reply, and hopefully, other clients will understand what happened when they'll see this.

However, I'm curious about what Upwork can do regarding his refund request?

lysis10 · ‎12-30-2022

Nail A wrote:

However, I'm curious about what Upwork can do regarding his refund request?

When you accept an escrow contract, you agree to go into mediation. Don't ignore it and read up on the whole mediation to arbitration pipeline. Don't ignore the mediator either.

jeremiah-brown · ‎12-30-2022

You also noted that the client has given you an ultimatum - "give me a refund or I'll leave a bad review". As someone else pointed out, this couldbe considered feedback manipulation and should be something you point out to mediators and/or Upwork.

Think about the context of this situation.

The client had the opportunity to review the work performed.
The client had the opportunity to ask for revisions, changes, and express their dissatisfaction
The client had the opportunity to have errors and omissions corrected and fixed to their standards
The client had the opportunity to have the work peer reviewed
The client also had the opportunity to NOT release milestone funds
The client also had the opportunity TO accept the work and release the milestone funds.

In nearly every single step, the client had the opportunity to change the outcome of the work they NOW claim is not to their standard. The client is also, only now, claiming to leave a bad review after having every opportunity to change the course of the project and expected outcome.

almukhambetov · ‎12-30-2022

Completely agreed with every word. Will definitely use this during the mediation.

I already told the client that his behavior was disrespectful and manipulative and I'm wondering how he can disrespect my time so much. I've never seen absurd like this tbh.

jeremiah-brown · ‎12-30-2022

Sure, but theres also tact and candor. You don't know how a mediator is going to respond. There is always the possibility that things may not go your way until the final decision has been made.

I would refrain from being too pointed in your language and instead take a tactful but candid approach.

Example
"Sir/Ma'am, I performed the work that you requested and the obligations we both agreed to in the contract. If you were unhappy with the deliverables that I have provided, this should have been brought to my attention prior to releasing any funds. Throughout the entire project you have had mutliple opportunities to identify and object to elements that do not meet your standards. Why did you accept the devlierables and release the milestone funds if you were dissatisfied with my work?

Releasing funds is an act of acceptance and final approval. I have spent considerable time and energy performing the work that you have requested and as such, I would like to receive compensation for it."

almukhambetov · ‎12-30-2022

Thanks a lot for the advice and example! Yes, I was a bit too straightforward. Simply was shocked by his behavior. I think that it'll be incorrect from my side to delete that message....but in our future conversations, I'll be more tactful. Thanks a lot, Jeremiah!

lysis10 · ‎12-30-2022

As an aside to the question if you should refund, just know that if he closes the contract then he left feedback.

the-right-writer · ‎12-30-2022

I call this a thinly veiled threat to your feedback and would report it to Upwork. I know others encourage you to work with this person, but you can't trust them. You may give them a full refund only to find they gut your JSS. The decision is yours, but I would give all options thought before proceeding. Since the contract is still open, this is a better opportunity to raise concern then after the contract is closed.

I admit I have never had a client who wanted a refund, but I have witnessed a number of them. Also, I had a client that hinted at less than accurate reviews and I just didn't respond.

I know others feel refunding is always the way to go in an attempt to keep the JSS from taking a hit. As I said, you don't know what these clients will do. If they are not behaving honorably, what makes you think they will start honoring their word? Additionally, I believe it sets up a negative process where the freelancer is always thinking of refunding to appease a cranky client. I, too, would be concerned about receiving funds. That's another reason to report. I do not think this client can be trusted in any way, shape, or form. Upwork does have a policy on feedback manipulation, and this definitely qualifies.

This client is not going to be forthcoming with their real intentions. Proceed with caution, whatever you do.

m_terrazas · ‎12-30-2022

Nail A wrote:
Hi!

My client approved the milestone. At the moment I didn't know if he was satisfied with my work as he didn't provide any valuable feedback. After the payment was made he requested a refund. As he told me: "After thinking more about this and talking to some folks who I respect, I am not satisfied with the work and do not feel that I will be able to use your deliverables at all."
During the work, the client asked for multiple corrections but never said that he is not satisfied with the work.

So now it looks like he received what he needed, and doesn't want to pay for it, manipulating that would not like to leave me negative feedback.

He also said: "I would like a refund. Since you were nice to work with, I'd like to settle this with you directly. If you agree to this, let's do the refund and go our separate ways. I will not leave a review or contact UpWork indicating my lack of satisfaction with the outcome.

If you are not amenable to the above, then I will have no choice but to reach out to UpWork to resolve this. Again, I'd prefer to not do this because you were nice to work with. It just wasn't a fit and that's part of the process with UpWork."

Very manipulative, isn't it?

I'm wondering if I'm secure and if I'll get my money in a 100% volume.
The contract is not ended yet.

If I have understood correctly, all this, for now, remains in a conversation.
You haven't received any requests from Upwork for a refund, correct?
If so, I would report it for comment manipulation and then wait to see if I get that "official" request for a refund.

almukhambetov · ‎12-30-2022

Hi Maria,

I received a refund request from Upwork. I received it and his message approximately in 12 hours after the client approved the milestone.

I don't see where I can decline this request so I'm afraid that this whole conversation will involve a mediator. I already had a similar situation this year. The mediator's offer was - either I get 50%, or we'll go to arbitrage where we'll have to pay around $300 each. That looked like a manipulation from Upwork. So I don't want this situation to happen again.

m_terrazas · ‎12-30-2022

Nail A wrote:
Hi Maria,

I received a refund request from Upwork. I received it and his message approximately in 12 hours after the client approved the milestone.
I don't see where I can decline this request so I'm afraid that this whole conversation will involve a mediator. I already had a similar situation this year. The mediator's offer was - either I get 50%, or we'll go to arbitrage where we'll have to pay around $300 each. That looked like a manipulation from Upwork. So I don't want this situation to happen again.

Ok, so I misunderstood.
Anyway, I still think you should report the comment manipulation issue.
Good luck!

25005175 · ‎12-30-2022

The mediator's offer was - either I get 50%, or we'll go to arbitrage where we'll have to pay around $300 each. That looked like a manipulation from Upwork.

That's not manipulation - that's protocol. And Upwork pays one third of the fee, so that you only have to pay $291. I've been through the milestone dispute process with a nasty client, and won. Based stricly on what you've written here, you have excellent odds of succeeding at arbitration - and an arbiter can decide that the losing (adverse) party needs to reimburse the arbitration fee paid by the winning party.

Fight this through. Do not agree to the refund. Understand that a mediator's goal is to help you two reach a decision. If you fail to reach an agreement, the mediator will make a non-binding suggestion. If you reject that suggestion, you either auto-authorize the refund or apply for arbitration and pay the fee. If you pay and your client refuses to, then you automatically get the money.

Learn all about it in the sections 6 & 7 of the Fixed-Price chapter of the ToS.

lysis10 · ‎12-30-2022

Nothing wrong with being straightforward. It cuts out any guessing game and keeps things clear cut. What most people write in a long paragraph, I do in like a sentence. It's fine.

25005175 · ‎12-30-2022

Spoken like a true technical writer. 👩‍💻

lysis10 · ‎12-31-2022

Jonathan L wrote:
Spoken like a true technical writer. 👩‍💻

You're not wrong. lol But it's more about being extremely careful about what is said in chats in case of any disputes. I don't think being vague or implying something is a good way to put things in writing. I think being direct and clearcut is better.

a3052435 · ‎02-08-2024

I am currently encountering a challenging situation.

Upon delivering all project files to the client, they raised a dispute just an hour later, requesting a full refund despite my completion of the work in accordance with their requirements.

Additionally, they falsely accused me of being rude. Despite presenting all the evidence to Upwork, demonstrating the thorough completion of the work, the mediation team favored the client's side.

I sincerely hope to avoid such issues in the future, where clients can dispute without valid reasons, even when the freelancer has fulfilled the work requirements and provided substantial evidence to substantiate their claim.