Client is asking me to do extra work

[2d074b0f]

So I recently got a gig to script a semi short comic (about 47 pages on Google Docs) and I'm now moving from outlining and scripting onto the storyboard. I asked him if I could get partial payment for completing this since it's been about a month, but he claimed he didn't know how to do that. I told him he can, but didn't respond for a day and ignored it (he does this a lot where he doesn't respond for days at a time and ignores what I said and moves on).

I started the storyboard, which is on paper and would be extremely hard to edit. I get 17 pages deep and the client says to pause because he wants the beginning to be longer. After a few days, he shows me a new mini outline and says he’ll write it into the script himself. I'm a little frustrated at this point because I already finished the outline and script portion and now I have to start the storyboard over (I have another comic job as well but it's not totally relevent. Let's just say I don't have much free time).

Early in the morning, he tells me that he actually wants me to write it into the script now, even though he said he'd do it. I didn't get paid anything yet and now I'm doing extra work while basically trashing the old storyboard and starting over.

I'm new to Upwork so I want to know if this is normal and if I should even be upset with it? By the way, I only responded with "sure" to him. I don't want to be unprofessional.

[lysis10]

You can request part of the escrow by just typing in how much you want when you click submit on the milestone.

[2d074b0f]

Thanks!

[pudingstudio]

---

Erica D wrote:

So I recently got a gig to script a semi short comic (about 47 pages on Google Docs) and I'm now moving from outlining and scripting onto the storyboard. I asked him if I could get partial payment for completing this since it's been about a month, but he claimed he didn't know how to do that. I told him he can, but didn't respond for a day and ignored it (he does this a lot where he doesn't respond for days at a time and ignores what I said and moves on).

I started the storyboard, which is on paper and would be extremely hard to edit. I get 17 pages deep and the client says to pause because he wants the beginning to be longer. After a few days, he shows me a new mini outline and says he’ll write it into the script himself. I'm a little frustrated at this point because I already finished the outline and script portion and now I have to start the storyboard over (I have another comic job as well but it's not totally relevent. Let's just say I don't have much free time).

Early in the morning, he tells me that he actually wants me to write it into the script now, even though he said he'd do it. I didn't get paid anything yet and now I'm doing extra work while basically trashing the old storyboard and starting over.

I'm new to Upwork so I want to know if this is normal and if I should even be upset with it? By the way, I only responded with "sure" to him. I don't want to be unprofessional.

---

You should be upset if you choose to continue that project.
You'd be aware that job you're working on will continue to be troublesome.

Obviously, you shouldn't continue working with that client.
Of course, we all can understand that a job is a job.

Great thing is that it's up to you. Clients don't "own" "their" freelancers.
I PICK my clients. Clients choose with whom they want to work with. We all have a choice.

[2d074b0f]

Thanks for the reply! I might continue working on it, but that depends on how the client responds to my latest message. I'm really strapped for time so I might have to stop for that alone. I don't want to have to since I think the client's story has great potential, but I just don't have the time to storyboard it 😕

[prestonhunter]

re: " I didn't get paid anything yet"

If you have not been hired officially with a contract, then you have a huge problem. You need to learn how to use Upwork properly. You can't get paid without a contract.

===========================

If this is an hourly contract and you are logging all of your time, then it is FINE for the client to ask you to do extra work. Because every minute you spend doing exra work is another minute you get paid money for.

===========================

If this is a fixed-price contract:

Don't do extra work.

That is a very bad path to start down.

Be polite. Be professional. But don't do extra work. Ever.

Here is an example:
A client hired an artist to draw a picture of a cat, using a fixed-price contract.

The cat had 6 whiskers.

The client asked to artist to draw a 7th whisker.
This request was 100% inappropriate. Because the written contract did not state how many whiskers the cat would have.

The only appropriate way for the client to make such a request is to offer to PAY the freelancer to do this.

The freelancer may CHOOSE to do it for free if it is really insignificant in terms fo time. But it is never okay for a client to ask a freelancer to work for free. It is a VIOLATION OF UPWORK TOS for a client to ask a freelancer to work for free.

=======
Erica:
What you need to do is offer the client the following choice:

a) The client may CLOSE the current contract immediately, releasing all money in escrow to you, and then create an hourly contract.

b) Or the client may CLOSE the current contract immediately, releasing all money in escrow to you, and create a new fixed-price contract that details EXACTLY what you will do for the first milestone (NOT the entire project, just one small milestone, and other milestones can be created later).

c) Or nothing else will happen.

DO NOT continue to work on this project IN ANY WAY unless the client chooses option (a) or (b).

[wlyonsatl]

Erica,

For almost any writing project you'd be better served by using an hourly project contract, which allows for the client to make any adjustments in the form of additional work for you without you ending up doing far more than the amount of work originally agreed to without being paid for it. Of course, clients don't like this arrangement, especially if they are planning to expand their expectations of you once there is a contract in place. I don't think that is an uncommon client mindset on Upwork, based other posts we have seen here from other freelancers facing your predicament.

At the very least you could incorporate into a fixed price contract a fixed number of pages to be provided with a fixed number of maximum changes allowable with provision for additional work being accompanied by additional pay.

You should also break up fixed price contracts into certain different milestones, so you can be assured that the client will pay you as the milestones require or you have a reason to stop working until such payments are made. If all of your pay is due only when the client says you're finished, that sets you up for problems that are avoidable to some extent.

With your contract already in place, these are not options for you. So, what you have to do is just say "No" when the client piles more and more demands on your talents and time without agreeing to what you require in terms of additional payments to you. 

Good luck!

Don't let your concerns about your JSS or the client's potential response to you requirements of him keep you from standing up to unfair/dishonest/predatory clients. You'll learn how to weed them out as you do more projects on Upwork.

Good luck!

[ericaandrews]

No that is not 'normal' or acceptable, but yes, unscrupulous clients do that all the time.  Your client is exploiting you, plain and simple.  My suggestion is to inform him that he'll need to release partial payment (by paying a milestone for the work done so far), or you will not continue doing any additional work and you will not be providing him with any new work you have not 'submitted' yet.  If he/she does not PAY for the work, the client has no legal rights or entitlements to the work.  Right now, because the client has paid nothing, they have no legal/artistic/intellectual property rights to the work you have done so far.  Don't worry about being 'unprofessional', so long as you are not rude.   It's OK to be firm and to set rules and boundaries.  You are running a BUSINESS, not a charity.  If a 'client' isn't willing to PAY, they are not a client, they are a freeloader. 

If the client refuses to make a partial payment, I would simply end the contract and move on.  A client cannot leave profile 'feedback' on a contract unless at least one payment has been made.  So if he/she has paid nothing, and you close the contract, the contract simply 'disappears' from your job history - like it never existed.   That might be your best bet. This actually sounds like the type of client that is ultimately going to make some 'excuse' not to pay - weeks or months later - even if you give him a perfect deliverable, he'll complain that it's 'not what he wanted', refuse to pay or request a refund, and use your great work anyway.   The client sounds like a con artist, to be honest.

My advice going forward is, for this type of work, that could require an unknown amount of 're-working', to only agree to HOURLY contracts. With fixed-price, you really have no way to 'estimate' how much work you'll do, and clients like to ask for 'fixed price' contracts so they can try to extort an unlimited amount of work out of freelancers while spending little money.  They just keep 'withholding' the payment and demanding an endless laundry list of nonsense that was never in the original contract.  Unless a job is a very simple, clearly defined task you know you can do the first-time around without endless 'editing' and 'revisions', I would refuse all fixed-price contracts and insist on hourly only.   Unless written up and defined perfectly, most fixed-price contracts turn out to 'benefit' the client with lots of cheap labor, but be a scam for the freelancer

[prestonhunter]

re: "I'm new to Upwork so I want to know if this is normal and if I should even be upset with it?"

A normal thing for a client to do is to pay a freelancer fairly and in a way that makes the freelancer want to work on the project and do a good job for the client.

A client who tries to manipulate a freelancer into working for free is really wasting his own time and money, if he wants to obtain quality work.

Quality freelancers don't work for free.

They're just going to leave the project or be uninterested.

If I have a project that is important to me, the last thing I want is freelancers who are unmotivted or uninterested because they feel like I'm paying them nothing or paying them too little for it to be worth their time.

[spectralua]

I see a lot of clients who don't care about continuing to work with a freelancer. They want work of the lowest acceptable quality for the lowest price, or better for free. Next time a new freelancer will be hired, is an excess of them here. And the majority of such clients are here, especially in the low price field. Beginners willingly start working without a contract, believe in promises, need a job and do not know how to protect themselves. I'm sure your approach of trying and collaborating with a more helpful freelancer is familiar to them, but they prefer a different approach: get the job for free and throw the freelancer in the trash, move on to the next one. This is also a business model, and as I see it very popular.

[mhdlh]

Hello Mykola, 

There is a rating system for customers, also upwork authority.

If a freelancer joins the community here and read threads, he/she will get a good background and learn more about those things. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "So I recently got a gig to script a semi short comic (about 47 pages on Google Docs) and I'm now moving from outlining and scripting onto the storyboard. I asked him if I could get partial payment for completing this since it's been about a month"

When I work on fixed-price contracts, I set up milestones so that the work for a milestone takes no more than a day at most.

No freelancer should be working for a month on a fixed-project without getting paid.

That's a very bad idea.

What if the client decides to not pay you at all?

That can happen.

When you're working with a client you have never worked with before, you need to TEST the client to see if she pays fixed-price work honestly.

No more than an hour or two of work for the first milestone.
Then see if the client pays.

If she does pay, without asking for more work or changes, then you can accept increasingly larger milestones.

But if the client goofs around with the contract and doesn't pay or or asks for more work, then you shut things down immediately. You let the client know that you can ONLY work for her using an hourly contract.

[ericaandrews]

Advice for you on how to use Upwork in a way where you avoid being exploited.

Here is a 'general rule of thumb' I follow when determining which contract structure is appropriate.

1. Fixed Price could be a good candidate for the following types of work: The project is a one-time task or set of tasks where the client already knows exactly what they want, end to end, and can clearly articulate it, and has already made final decisions about what 'done' means to them and isn't still in the 'brainstorming ' stage.   Other good candidates are jobs that have a firm dead-line (so long as the goal/work is achievable in that time), because you know it will END at some point and the client will have to pay.

Examples: "Highlight all the spelling errors in my article and send it back by Tuesday".  "Upgrade these 4 computers in my office from Windows version X to Windows version Z"  "Change the color scheme of my website from Blue to Green"  "Prepare my taxes for this year and file them with the IRS by April 15th"

Again, it needs to be 100% clear to both parties, without ambiguity, what "done" means before the contract is signed so everyone knows whether the requirements have been met or not.

Hourly contracts: For anything that is likely to be a 'moving target' or require ongoing changes/work.  If you have a client that is still 'kicking ideas around' about what he/she thinks 'done' means, or is still 'brainstorming' creative ideas (like how a story line should go, or what they want their web site to look like), that should always be an hourly contract. Any project that is likely to require lots of re-work, corrections, 'upgrades', tweaks or fixes as the client's  understanding and 'preferences' evolve over time should be an hourly contract.  

During the interview, I pay attention to if the client is using definitive words, or 'possibility' words.  For instance, "We are going to have these machines upgraded no later than December"  (This client knows what they want and what 'done' means) versus   "Well, we could do an upgrade....or we might just leave it as is, or could move to the cloud. Hmm. Good question....Hey, Sally, what do you think we should do?"   (This client is still 'brainstorming' and only has a very 'general' idea of what they want:  Hourly contract)

Examples: The type of work you are doing, where the client keeps 'thinking up' new ideas and is still 'kicking' ideas around.  Anytime the client expresses some 'uncertainty' about the final direction they wish to go. Almost any type of writing/creative work where the definition of 'done' is based on if the client LIKES the final product (People are moody, and what they like one day is suddenly 'no good' the next day);  Any type of ongoing/maintenance work: Like call center support, IT support, administrative support;  Almost any project where you are creating something 'new' from scratch based on somebody else's 'vision' or 'rebuilding' something - again: Most creative work, almost every single IT software/app/web development or graphic/multimedia design project project.   The reason: With these types of jobs, the client's 'vision' of what 'done' means normally 'evolves' as you start doing the work - they think of something they didn't think of before. They discover a hurdle or need they weren't aware of. They realize a new 'capability' they didn't know existed before.  Or, their mood one day just changes or some new 'trend' comes up they decide to follow.

Your SAFEST bet is always to push for hourly only, because hourly covers ALL of the above scenarios and works just as well in place of a fixed-price contract. Hourly contracts ensure that, no matter how many times a client 'changes' his mind or decides to go in a 'new' direction, you get paid for every hour regardless, so he can 'change his mind' as many times as he wants.  It also ensures you get paid (and more promptly) if they just 'disappear' for a few days or go on vacation.  Even if they take days/weeks to get back to you and answer a question, you still get paid weekly for whatever hours you worked until they 're-emerge' again.  Trust me, hourly is much safer, especially if you are new

[mhdlh]

I don't have a background about those type of jobs, other than knowing that they are subjected to variations, like a home decore works.

I can conclude that customer is ready to pay if he receives the job he wanted. So, No fear that he won't pay (considering upwork as mediatory) between you and him. 

The best if the customer pays you partially now, and give you time to rework on his variation. Assuming the customer had seen your work and progress. 

He still can be trusted despite not paying you now, but it's way better that he pays now to help you focus more. Good Luck!