Client is buying articles for cheap and selli...

casnorman · ‎10-01-2019

I'm currently doing a job for a client who only gives me $5 per article and I was fine with this. Until I began a job at another website that they just so happen to be selling my articles to for $25 apiece. Can they do this?

petra_r · ‎10-01-2019

Cassidy N wrote:
Can they do this?

Of course they can.

The crux of your post is this part "who only gives me $5 per article and I was fine with this."

You agreed to a price to create a product you sell. If you now don't like that price anymore, don't sell at that price in future.

casnorman · ‎10-01-2019

I'm still a new writer and I wanted to build up more experience for my profile. It's just the fact she had said that these were going on a website she owned and I had to find out by getting a job on the same website she was selling the articles to. She wasn't honest, to begin with. But then she's claiming these articles as her own to the website she's selling them to. She's sitting there claiming all this work and accreditation by taking advantage of new writers. It's sickening.

prestonhunter · ‎10-01-2019

re: "She's sitting there claiming all this work and accreditation by taking advantage of new writers."

As is her right.

re: "It's sickening."

It's not sickening. It is commerce.

casnorman · ‎10-01-2019

So it's her right to be deceitful, greedy and be able to screw over writers who are just trying to do something they have a passion for? Just because she's lazy and doesn't want to write the content herself? I don't think so. I will have to check into the website she's selling them to and see if they have a policy about third-party articles. Because I sure our contract said by signing it, we certified that this was our OWN work, DONE by us. I will get justice for this and you just have a nice day.

petra_r · ‎10-01-2019

The second she pays for the articles they are hers to do with as she pleases. According to Upwork's terms of service, she is doing nothing wrong. Whether you are personally affronted is not a platform issue.

You sell something at a price you were fine with. The client bought it at a price she was fine with. After that moment in time, what happens to what you sold is nothing to do with you anymore. Those articles are no longer yours. They are no longer any of your business.

If you value your work more highly, put a more realistic price on them. Isn't it funny how you were perfectly fine with the price until you realised someone made a profit.

tlsanders · ‎10-02-2019

Cassidy N wrote:
So it's her right to be deceitful, greedy and be able to screw over writers who are just trying to do something they have a passion for? Just because she's lazy and doesn't want to write the content herself? I don't think so. I will have to check into the website she's selling them to and see if they have a policy about third-party articles. Because I sure our contract said by signing it, we certified that this was our OWN work, DONE by us. I will get justice for this and you just have a nice day.

"Right" is a weird word that's thrown around inappropriately a lot. The bottom line here is that being deceitful and greedy isn't illegal or necessarily a breach of contract. It sucks, and you don't have to participate in it, but there's likely nothing to stop her from doing it.

If you're right about the site terms, then perhaps you can get "justice" that way. But, it would be unusual. It's more common for terms to say that the content is original, unpublished, and that the person selling it has full rights to do so.

The business model has nothing to do with laziness. It has to do with volume. An individual may be able to write 5-10 $25 articles per day. This woman can purchase 100 per day, or more, if she uses many writers. If she pays $5 and resells them for $25, that means she may make thousands of dollars per day on those articles, if she has a large enough market for selling them.

tlbp · ‎10-02-2019

Cassidy N wrote:
So it's her right to be deceitful, greedy and be able to screw over writers who are just trying to do something they have a passion for? Just because she's lazy and doesn't want to write the content herself? I don't think so. I will have to check into the website she's selling them to and see if they have a policy about third-party articles. Because I sure our contract said by signing it, we certified that this was our OWN work, DONE by us. I will get justice for this and you just have a nice day.

I can understand feeling disappointed that you missed the opportunity that the client has taken to earn more per article. But I don't think it is fair to blame someone for leveraging a marketplace that you could not or did not.

If the client had not purchased your content for $5, who would you have sold it to? You admit that you agreed to the price not only to earn money from your passion but to build your reputation. So, the client is giving you that opportunity to build your reputation. You could, of course, take a slower route to build your reputation by marketing your services at a higher price and waiting to get a client. You wanted fast, yes?

You made a business choice, the client made a business choice. If you want to earn more, then you will have to do the work to earn more: Find clients who will pay more and convince them to pay you.

kat303 · ‎10-01-2019

Cassidy N wrote:
I'm still a new writer and I wanted to build up more experience for my profile. It's just the fact she had said that these were going on a website she owned and I had to find out by getting a job on the same website she was selling the articles to. She wasn't honest, to begin with. But then she's claiming these articles as her own to the website she's selling them to. She's sitting there claiming all this work and accreditation by taking advantage of new writers. It's sickening.

The facts are that you sent a proposal and agreed to that price. When you work cheap, you get clients like this, The job is going as indicated. The client is not giving you any trouble. The only problem I see, is that you first agreed to that price, then found you can get a better, higher price and now you are sorry and blaming the client.

Once the client pays for the work that a freelancer does, the Client owns all rights to it. They can do whatever they like with it. They can reword it, publish it, and they can even sell it to someone else. That is NOT being dishonest, that is basic work for hire/copyright law.

casnorman · ‎10-01-2019

I don't care about 5 bucks that much, what I do care about it the principal of the situation.

hoyle_editing · ‎10-02-2019

Cassidy N wrote:
I don't care about 5 bucks that much, what I do care about it the principal of the situation.

The only principal to the situation, is that if a client purchases work, they can do with it as they please.

It shouldnt come as a shock that most clients have work done so they can profit from it - if they didnt you would struggle to find work as a freelancer i am sure!

What i find more distressing is the amount of people that will take $5 jobs! if people stopped taking those jobs, clients would stop selling $5 projects for profit!

stephjogonzales · ‎10-02-2019

Cassidy, think of it this way.

If you made a purse or necklace and wanted to get paid for it you might sell it to a boutique at $X per item. You are a wholesaler.

The boutique, in turn, sells that product for $Y. That's where they make their money. The boutique is a retailer.

There is nothing different in your situation than what Amazon does with books or Target does with clothes. They buy product at a wholesale rate and mark it up.

This is the nature of business.

Once the client purchased the copy it is their's to do with what they want. There isn't an ethical issue here. You are a ghostwriter.

There is no kind way to say this. You are young. You have not been in the business world long enough to understand how it works.

Take this lesson as an opportunity. Maybe you set aside $100, 20 - $5 articles, and hire a writer and do the very same thing the clietnt did. Test the waters. See if that's another avenue for you.

Good luck!

tlsanders · ‎10-02-2019

Kathy T wrote:
Once the client pays for the work that a freelancer does, the Client owns all rights to it. They can do whatever they like with it. They can reword it, publish it, and they can even sell it to someone else. That is NOT being dishonest, that is basic work for hire/copyright law.

Obviously, the client has the right (in the Upwork context, where all rights are sold) to do what she likes with the content. But do you really think it's all caps "NOT being dishonest" to specifically say you're going to be doing something different with the articles as a means of securing the freelancer's services?

moonraker · ‎10-02-2019

Cassidy N wrote:
But then she's claiming these articles as her own to the website she's selling them to.

They are hers, she paid for them.

One thing that you should take from this is that there are people willing to pay $25, rather than $5, for the articles you write...

lysis10 · ‎10-02-2019

Cassidy N wrote:
I'm currently doing a job for a client who only gives me $5 per article and I was fine with this. Until I began a job at another website that they just so happen to be selling my articles to for $25 apiece. Can they do this?

lol this is great. I LOVE this client! I'd do it myself if I wanted to bang my head on the desk everyday dealing with $5 writers.

tlsanders · ‎10-02-2019

Jennifer M wrote:
Cassidy N wrote:
I'm currently doing a job for a client who only gives me $5 per article and I was fine with this. Until I began a job at another website that they just so happen to be selling my articles to for $25 apiece. Can they do this?
lol this is great. I LOVE this client! I'd do it myself if I wanted to bang my head on the desk everyday dealing with $5 writers.

There is actually a book--I can't recall the exact name of it, but it's something like "Building Your Writing Empire"--that is all about how to get rich as a writer by not writing and instead taking advantage of low-end freelancers.

lysis10 · ‎10-02-2019

Tiffany S wrote:
There is actually a book--I can't recall the exact name of it, but it's something like "Building Your Writing Empire"--that is all about how to get rich as a writer by not writing and instead taking advantage of low-end freelancers.

I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search. I would legit do what the OP's client is doing but I'm too afraid of the rampant plagiarism, and if I lose a client or account, I want it to be because of me not some low-rent writer who thinks rewriting content is writing.

prestonhunter · ‎10-02-2019

re: "I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search."

I don't believe that the vast majority of these low-end "writers" even know that they're doing something wrong.

I don't believe that most of these writers have any ethical or moral concepts regarding writing and originality and creativity that go beyond what a fieldhand feels toward the crops that he picks.

For them... "writing" is simply a way to earn money. And the way that "writing" is done is to search for a topic, find a source, and submit that source. Or change it and submit if a tool such as Copyscape is being used to check the submissions. So Upwork is simply a tool, in the same way that a washboard or plowshare is a tool.

The same can be said about low-end programming/web development, and no doubt many other skills.

lysis10 · ‎10-02-2019

Preston H wrote:
re: "I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search."

I don't believe that the vast majority of these low-end "writers" even know that they're doing something wrong.

I don't believe that most of these writers have any ethical or moral concepts regarding writing and originality and creativity that go beyond what a fieldhand feels toward the crops that he picks.

For them... "writing" is simply a way to earn money. And the way that "writing" is done is to search for a topic, find a source, and submit that source. Or change it and submit if a tool such as Copyscape is being used to check the submissions. So Upwork is simply a tool, in the same way that a washboard or plowshare is a tool.

The same can be said about low-end programming/web development, and no doubt many other skills.

They don't have any clue, which is weird to me especially in the US where I remember in the 6th grade doing papers and my teacher saying "rewriting other content is plagiarism and you'll get an F, so don't do it."

I'm fully enjoying the programming drama where open-source dependency creators are pulling their code cuz drama queens. teeeheeee The old timer in me is v v amused.

tlbp · ‎10-02-2019

Jennifer M wrote:
Preston H wrote:
re: "I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search."

I don't believe that the vast majority of these low-end "writers" even know that they're doing something wrong.

I don't believe that most of these writers have any ethical or moral concepts regarding writing and originality and creativity that go beyond what a fieldhand feels toward the crops that he picks.

For them... "writing" is simply a way to earn money. And the way that "writing" is done is to search for a topic, find a source, and submit that source. Or change it and submit if a tool such as Copyscape is being used to check the submissions. So Upwork is simply a tool, in the same way that a washboard or plowshare is a tool.

The same can be said about low-end programming/web development, and no doubt many other skills.
They don't have any clue, which is weird to me especially in the US where I remember in the 6th grade doing papers and my teacher saying "rewriting other content is plagiarism and you'll get an F, so don't do it."

I'm fully enjoying the programming drama where open-source dependency creators are pulling their code cuz drama queens. teeeheeee The old timer in me is v v amused.

But if it isn't on the test, today's students don't learn it. 😉

My 14 y.o. is studying proper citation methods this year and is now so paranoid. LOL

lysis10 · ‎10-02-2019

Tonya P wrote:
But if it isn't on the test, today's students don't learn it. 😉

My 14 y.o. is studying proper citation methods this year and is now so paranoid. LOL

I feel her pain. I was one of those overachiever kids that would get depressed and super stressed out if I didn't get an A. Even in college they scare you into citing properly.

moonraker · ‎10-02-2019

Jennifer M wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
There is actually a book--I can't recall the exact name of it, but it's something like "Building Your Writing Empire"--that is all about how to get rich as a writer by not writing and instead taking advantage of low-end freelancers.
I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search. I would legit do what the OP's client is doing but I'm too afraid of the rampant plagiarism, and if I lose a client or account, I want it to be because of me not some low-rent writer who thinks rewriting content is writing.

I have $5 writers, although I don't sell the articles on for as much as $25 (Usually $10-$15). I do have a couple of smaller clients that pay around $25-$30 and they are happy with the writer's work (although I choose my best to write those and pay them more).

I experience the problems you mentioned, and more, which is to be expected. I also have some writers that, to be frank, deserve a lot more than I am able to pay. A couple I can even trust with handling editing for me.
It takes a while to build a decent team at that level, but there are some gems out there. It is labour intensive to begin with, what with having to fix stuff all the time, but it gets easier as you find good ones that you can keep hold of. I can also be fussier when it comes to recruiting now because I have a core I can already count on.

lysis10 · ‎10-02-2019

Jamie F wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
There is actually a book--I can't recall the exact name of it, but it's something like "Building Your Writing Empire"--that is all about how to get rich as a writer by not writing and instead taking advantage of low-end freelancers.
I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search. I would legit do what the OP's client is doing but I'm too afraid of the rampant plagiarism, and if I lose a client or account, I want it to be because of me not some low-rent writer who thinks rewriting content is writing.
I have $5 writers, although I don't sell the articles on for as much as $25 (Usually $10-$15). I do have a couple of smaller clients that pay around $25-$30 and they are happy with the writer's work (although I choose my best to write those and pay them more).

I experience the problems you mentioned, and more, which is to be expected. I also have some writers that, to be frank, deserve a lot more than I am able to pay. A couple I can even trust with handling editing for me.
It takes a while to build a decent team at that level, but there are some gems out there. It is labour intensive to begin with, what with having to fix stuff all the time, but it gets easier as you find good ones that you can keep hold of. I can also be fussier when it comes to recruiting now because I have a core I can already count on.

I did have some good ones too. A few US and UKers in the group. They were definitely underselling themselves for sure. I sometimes wonder what they are up to these days and if they figured out they were wayyyyy better than the pay. I was more of a PM in that situation, so I didn't have control of the pay structure.

moonraker · ‎10-02-2019

Jennifer M wrote:
Jamie F wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
There is actually a book--I can't recall the exact name of it, but it's something like "Building Your Writing Empire"--that is all about how to get rich as a writer by not writing and instead taking advantage of low-end freelancers.
I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search. I would legit do what the OP's client is doing but I'm too afraid of the rampant plagiarism, and if I lose a client or account, I want it to be because of me not some low-rent writer who thinks rewriting content is writing.
I have $5 writers, although I don't sell the articles on for as much as $25 (Usually $10-$15). I do have a couple of smaller clients that pay around $25-$30 and they are happy with the writer's work (although I choose my best to write those and pay them more).

I experience the problems you mentioned, and more, which is to be expected. I also have some writers that, to be frank, deserve a lot more than I am able to pay. A couple I can even trust with handling editing for me.
It takes a while to build a decent team at that level, but there are some gems out there. It is labour intensive to begin with, what with having to fix stuff all the time, but it gets easier as you find good ones that you can keep hold of. I can also be fussier when it comes to recruiting now because I have a core I can already count on.
I did have some good ones too. A few US and UKers in the group. They were definitely underselling themselves for sure. I sometimes wonder what they are up to these days and if they figured out they were wayyyyy better than the pay. I was more of a PM in that situation, so I didn't have control of the pay structure.

My #1 writer is an African lady. She's an absolute superstar.

She's made over 10k on Upwork. At $5/dollar an article, that's a lot of articles, so she must be at least reasonably happy with it. Part of me wants her to find a better paying job, but the rest of me wants her working for me.

feed_my_eyes · ‎10-02-2019

Jamie F wrote:
My #1 writer is an African lady. She's an absolute superstar.

She's made over 10k on Upwork. At $5/dollar an article, that's a lot of articles, so she must be at least reasonably happy with it. Part of me wants her to find a better paying job, but the rest of me wants her working for me.

Hmmm, maybe I'll track her down and get her to work for me instead. It sounds like I could still make a profit while paying her a fair rate.

BTW, shouldn't you have an agency account if you're hiring other freelancers on Upwork?

prestonhunter · ‎10-02-2019

Re: “BTW, shouldn't you have an agency account if you're hiring other freelancers on Upwork?”

Anyone can hire freelancers on Upwork. Just need a client account.

That isn’t what an agency is used for. An agency is used to offer services to clients, but offers such services from a group of people rather than a single individual. An agency is comprised of individual freelancers.

feed_my_eyes · ‎10-02-2019

Preston H wrote:
An agency is used to offer services to clients, but offers such services from a group of people rather than a single individual. An agency is comprised of individual freelancers.

He bids on projects as a single freelancer but then hires other freelancers on Upwork to do the work. Isn't that the same thing that agency owners do? I don't understand the difference. I thought that you had to get a client's permission before farming out their work.

prestonhunter · ‎10-02-2019

Re: “I thought that you had to get a client's permission before farming out their work.”

I have not idea what Jamie does.

But, yes, I believe that is the rule for hourly contracts: freelancers are not supposed to sub-contract without informing clients.

feed_my_eyes · ‎10-02-2019

Preston H wrote:
Re: “I thought that you had to get a client's permission before farming out their work.”

I have not idea what Jamie does.

But, yes, I believe that is the rule for hourly contracts: freelancers are not supposed to sub-contract without informing clients.

You can't subcontract an hourly project at all. Anyway I thought it applied to both, but happy to admit if I'm wrong.

petra_r · ‎10-02-2019

Preston H wrote:
Re: “I thought that you had to get a client's permission before farming out their work.”

I have not idea what Jamie does.

But, yes, I believe that is the rule for hourly contracts: freelancers are not supposed to sub-contract without informing clients.

No. Fixed rate - with the client's knowledge and consent

Hourly - No subcontracting.

tlbp · ‎10-02-2019

Jamie F wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
There is actually a book--I can't recall the exact name of it, but it's something like "Building Your Writing Empire"--that is all about how to get rich as a writer by not writing and instead taking advantage of low-end freelancers.
I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search. I would legit do what the OP's client is doing but I'm too afraid of the rampant plagiarism, and if I lose a client or account, I want it to be because of me not some low-rent writer who thinks rewriting content is writing.
I have $5 writers, although I don't sell the articles on for as much as $25 (Usually $10-$15). I do have a couple of smaller clients that pay around $25-$30 and they are happy with the writer's work (although I choose my best to write those and pay them more).

I experience the problems you mentioned, and more, which is to be expected. I also have some writers that, to be frank, deserve a lot more than I am able to pay. A couple I can even trust with handling editing for me.
It takes a while to build a decent team at that level, but there are some gems out there. It is labour intensive to begin with, what with having to fix stuff all the time, but it gets easier as you find good ones that you can keep hold of. I can also be fussier when it comes to recruiting now because I have a core I can already count on.

I think there are good writers who don't act out of commercial necessity, such as OP. They deliver above and beyond. I started out that way because I knew how to write but not how to freelance. Others are just not capable of improving their craft to the point where they can demand higher fees.

If I could find good team members, I would definitely hold onto them. Good, mid-level writers are hard to find.

chasb · ‎10-02-2019

Wow, now even the 'farmers' are coming out of the woodwork.

Talk about declining standards!

tlsanders · ‎10-02-2019

Jamie F wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
There is actually a book--I can't recall the exact name of it, but it's something like "Building Your Writing Empire"--that is all about how to get rich as a writer by not writing and instead taking advantage of low-end freelancers.
I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search. I would legit do what the OP's client is doing but I'm too afraid of the rampant plagiarism, and if I lose a client or account, I want it to be because of me not some low-rent writer who thinks rewriting content is writing.
I have $5 writers, although I don't sell the articles on for as much as $25 (Usually $10-$15). I do have a couple of smaller clients that pay around $25-$30 and they are happy with the writer's work (although I choose my best to write those and pay them more).

I experience the problems you mentioned, and more, which is to be expected. I also have some writers that, to be frank, deserve a lot more than I am able to pay. A couple I can even trust with handling editing for me.
It takes a while to build a decent team at that level, but there are some gems out there. It is labour intensive to begin with, what with having to fix stuff all the time, but it gets easier as you find good ones that you can keep hold of. I can also be fussier when it comes to recruiting now because I have a core I can already count on.

Your profile makes it sound as if you are doing the writing. Do your clients know that you're just an onseller?

moonraker · ‎10-03-2019

Tiffany S wrote:
Jamie F wrote:
Jennifer M wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
There is actually a book--I can't recall the exact name of it, but it's something like "Building Your Writing Empire"--that is all about how to get rich as a writer by not writing and instead taking advantage of low-end freelancers.
I had to deal with low-end writers for several months, and plagiarism is basically the norm. They just rewrite whatever shows up first on a search. I would legit do what the OP's client is doing but I'm too afraid of the rampant plagiarism, and if I lose a client or account, I want it to be because of me not some low-rent writer who thinks rewriting content is writing.
I have $5 writers, although I don't sell the articles on for as much as $25 (Usually $10-$15). I do have a couple of smaller clients that pay around $25-$30 and they are happy with the writer's work (although I choose my best to write those and pay them more).

I experience the problems you mentioned, and more, which is to be expected. I also have some writers that, to be frank, deserve a lot more than I am able to pay. A couple I can even trust with handling editing for me.
It takes a while to build a decent team at that level, but there are some gems out there. It is labour intensive to begin with, what with having to fix stuff all the time, but it gets easier as you find good ones that you can keep hold of. I can also be fussier when it comes to recruiting now because I have a core I can already count on.
Your profile makes it sound as if you are doing the writing. Do your clients know that you're just an onseller?

I'm doing both.

I have clients that I write for myself, and different clients that my other writers write for. They all know who's doing the work. I need to be writing myself while the other side of things are built up sufficiently to make me enough money.

Client is buying articles for cheap and selling them to other websites.