Client ordered me to send my ID and to pay ta...

mira369 · ‎08-05-2019

Hello everyone,
I was hired to translate some products descriptions from EN into GR . After the work was done , the client ORDERED me to send him my ID and to pay him some taxes(I have never heard of this before !!) .
I refused to do that of course , so he started ignoring my messages . Today , i have received his bad Feedback saying : " Amira did a good job at translating documents for us. The downside is that she did not want to pay taxes and refused to provide ID documents necessary for her to be promoted to more responsibilities within our organisation. Good work overall but poor principles."
What do you think about this ? Is that even fair ?? i don't want more responsibilities ! Job description was about TRANSLATION of some descriptions !!
How to solve this please?

prestonhunter · ‎08-05-2019

Um... what?

Freelancers don't pay taxes to clients.

Freelancers also don't provide ID to clients.

Freelancers provide ID to Upwork.

If clients want to verify our identity, they can check with Upwork.

re: "After the work was done, the client FORCED me to send him my ID and to pay him some taxes.. I refused to do that of course..."

So, to be more precise: The client ORDERED you to send him your ID and pay him some taxes. You did not do that. You did not follow that order. If he had "forced" you to do these things, then it would mean he had some how compelled you to ACTUALLY do those things.

It is a good thing that you did not "pay him taxes." Because that would mean you had exchanged money outside of Upwork. Which is a violation of Upwork ToS, and could be grounds for you to be suspended or have your account terminated. By refusing to pay money to the client, you did the right thing.

mira369 · ‎08-05-2019

Hello Sir ,

Thank you for the very fast reply .

What should i do now to get his unfair Feedback removed without having the sentence "feedback removed" shown on my profile ?

I have received this unfair feedback just because i refused to pay him the taxes and send him my ID . ( he even said that in his feedback ) .

prestonhunter · ‎08-05-2019

The client was violating Upwork ToS.

This client should have his account terminated.

You could try reporting this to Upwork Customer Service.

If we are fortunate, then an Upwork Forum Moderator will see this conversation and help intervene or get this to the right team to review what happened.

Clients can NOT be going around asking freelancers for money. This is a very serious breach of Upwork policy.

BojanS · ‎08-05-2019

Hi Amira,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I'll share this with our team for their review and one of our agents will reach out to you directly with the update. Please, be careful not to share any private or sensitive information with clients on Upwork. All the information needed to hire and pay you via Upwork is available on your profile.

Thank you.

~ Bojan

m_terrazas · ‎08-05-2019

Amira O wrote:
Hello everyone,
I was hired to translate some products descriptions from EN into GR . After the work was done , the client FORCED me to send him my ID and to pay him some taxes(I have never heard of this before !!) .
I refused to do that of course , so he started ignoring my messages . Today , i have received his bad Feedback saying : " Amira did a good job at translating documents for us. The downside is that she did not want to pay taxes and refused to provide ID documents necessary for her to be promoted to more responsibilities within our organisation. Good work overall but poor principles."
What do you think about this ? Is that even fair ?? i don't want more responsibilities ! Job description was about TRANSLATION of some descriptions !!
How to solve this please?

I have marked your message to see if any mod can tell you what to do.

kat303 · ‎08-05-2019

If Upwork does not see that this client's feedback is some sort of scam and is definitely unwarranted and they fail to adjust your feedback so it doesn't affect your JSS, then this site has reached the bottom.

Reply

Freelancers do not pay any taxes to a client nor provide any ID/personal information to clients. If a client wants ID they need to contact Upwork. To provide such a low score based on the inability to succeed in scamming a freelancer and then to admit to the scam is reason enough to stay clear of this client.

Kind of harsh but to the point. If Upwork doesn't do something to fix your JSS because of this, I don't see any problem in posting the above response to the clients feedback.

florydev · ‎08-07-2019

Kathy T wrote:
If Upwork does not see that this client's feedback is some sort of scam and is definitely unwarranted and they fail to adjust your feedback so it doesn't affect your JSS, then this site has reached the bottom.

Reply
Freelancers do not pay any taxes to a client nor provide any ID/personal information to clients. If a client wants ID they need to contact Upwork. To provide such a low score based on the inability to succeed in scamming a freelancer and then to admit to the scam is reason enough to stay clear of this client.

Kind of harsh but to the point. If Upwork doesn't do something to fix your JSS because of this, I don't see any problem in posting the above response to the clients feedback.

Why does it have to be a scam? Could it be that the client is just, let me see, what is a safe word here, unelightened to the extent if they were an elephant they could fly?

If you owned a US company and had worked with W2 employees in the past and never hired anyone 1099 then you might very well expect that you have to do this. They take money out of employees checks to pay taxes. In fact they talk about progressing in their organization as if she IS an employee instead of a business owner in her own right.

I honestly think of it more that way because if they were just trying to scam her I am pretty sure they wouldn't put it on their review. I do think that Upwork should talk to this client, get it straightened out, and see if they can't redo the feedback.

But, I am not sure I would hold my breath.

colettelewis · ‎08-07-2019

Freelancers are certainly responsible for their own taxes, but they are not responsible for those of their clients!

If the client had demanded tax and ID from the OP before hiring her, I am sure she would have made the right choice and probably would not have accepted the job. Demanding tax from a freelancer is the equivalent of asking them to pay for the privilege of working for someone. I thought that was against the ToS?

I think the client was completely out of line asking for either - even though Upwork condones it. And giving bad feedback because of it is also out of line as it has nothing whatsoever to do with the criteria given for feedback.

kochubei_valeria · ‎08-06-2019

Hi Amira,

I'd like to circle back here about the issue you were having with your client. While we advise freelancers to be careful when sharing information with clients on Upwork, it's not a violation of ToS to ask for an ID document. The freelancer is free to refuse to provide the information. Freelancers are also responsible for paying their own taxes.

There are very limited cases where Upwork team would remove or edit feedback and I listed those cases in this post. We see that a lot of your communication with the client may have happened outside of Upwork Messages. So if you have any screenshots of the client asking you to pay any money directly to them or hiring you outside of Upwork, please share them via the ticket we've initiate for you.

~ Valeria

kat303 · ‎08-06-2019

According to the OP original post,

Today , i have received his bad Feedback saying : " Amira did a good job at translating documents for us. The downside is that she did not want to pay taxes and refused to provide ID documents necessary for her to be promoted to more responsibilities within our organisation. Good work overall but poor principles."

The OP's profile is set to private so I can't see what the feedback from this client actually says, but if it is what the OP states, (especially underlined) that in itself is evidence. To give poor/negative feedback on something that is stated on your site and told over and over (freelancer should not pay clients for taxes, country fees for work etc.) should be enough to go by. As for ID. which depends on what personal information that was requested. common sense - do not give out personal information, SS #, drivers license numbers, bank or credit card numbers, and PayPal account numbers. visa/passport information and even mothers maiden names.

If the feedback actually states that, I'm surprised that Upwork would allow that Specific negative feedback to stay AND be included in any way that would affect the OP's JSS.

prestonhunter · ‎08-06-2019

Considering Valeria's comments...

I think it IS wise, and it is necessary, for Upwork to have proof or verification of serious violations of Upwork ToS before it takes action against users... whether those users are freelancers or clients.

In the original poster's account of events, a client asked for identity information. We normally object to this here in the Forum, for many good reasons. But as Valeria points out: that is not a violation of Upwork ToS.

The original poster stated that the client asked her (the freelancer) to pay money directly to the client.

Valeria is not disputing that it is against Upwork ToS to exchange money outside of the platform. She is asking the freelancer to provide some evidence that this happened.

This is a reasonable request on Upwork's part.

What if the client asked an allowable question, but the freelancer misunderstood it?

As much as I don't like the idea of a client asking a freelancer to pay taxes directly to the client... We don't know if that is exactly what happened - from the client's perspective - and we don't know for certain that a serious Upwork ToS violation occurred.

Reading and re-reading the original post... I think it IS possible that there was a misunderstanding. I think it IS possible that a client was trying to do things according to her understanding of how Upwork functions, along with her understanding of how payments to employees and/or freelancers work in her jurisdiction. I can not say for certain that this client was trying to manipulate or scam the freelancer, and apparently Upwork feels the same way.

mira369 · ‎08-06-2019

Thank you so much Kathy for the support , you are amazing! Attached is a screenshot of the feedback.
Valeria : I don't have any screenshots because i don't have acces anymore to the Slack room . He blocked me . Why do you need screenshots anyway? He said everything in his feedback !! Isn't that more than enough ?
He asked for the ID after the work was done and approved by him and after i refused to pay him, he said with his own words that he will use it for taxes stuffs.
Why should i send him my ID AFTER the work was approved ? All the informations he needs are public on my profile .
The client sells products online and he wants me to pay his taxes .
I am really shocked ! I didn't excpect this answer from a moderator !

prestonhunter · ‎08-06-2019

Amira:

You shared a screenshot.

The client specifically said of you:

"She did not want to pay taxes."

The client did not say:

"She did not want to pay taxes to me."

So although it may be frustrating to you, because you were there for all of the Slack-based conversatsions... I can see Upwork's perspective. They weren't there for those conversations.

VladimirG · ‎08-07-2019

Hi Amira,

I do understand the angst the issue you had with this client and the feedback you received on your contract created. However, please note that we need evidence of the actual request before we can take any action against a user's account. I see our team also provided more information on your support ticket so please follow up there if you can provide a screenshot and we'll gladly process the case further.

~ Vladimir

mira369 · ‎08-06-2019

He asked for my ID after the work was done and approved by him and his team . What would he do with my ID ?
Paying taxes means working for free ! what would i earn if i pay him back ? + taxes weren't mentioned in his job description !

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-06-2019

Valeria K wrote:

There are very limited cases where Upwork team would remove or edit feedback and I listed those cases in this post.

It says in the post that Upwork will remove feedback if it's a TOS violation. If the client demanded a "tax" payment from the freelancer, then isn't it a violation according to this clause:

"Making or demanding bribes or other payments without the intention of providing services in exchange for the payment"

prestonhunter · ‎08-06-2019

Christine:

You are correct.

It WOULD be a violation if the client demanded a "tax" payment from a freelancer.

That is why Upwork asked the freelancer if she had any evidence that this actually occurred.

The freelancer cited the client's feedback to her.

But the client's feedback does not say that the client demanded a tax payment from the freelancer.

The client's feedback states that the freelancer did not want to pay taxes.

I don't want to pay taxes either. Most of us don't like paying taxes.

Obviously this is somewhat ridiculous, and I think the right thing - and smart thing - to do is simply to manually remove that feedback.

...But I think that is the logic here... I imagine that Upwork is sympathetic to the freelancer's situation. But they have policies they are trying to follow so that they can properly help her out.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-06-2019

Preston H wrote:
Christine:
You are correct.

It WOULD be a violation if the client demanded a "tax" payment from a freelancer.

That is why Upwork asked the freelancer if she had any evidence that this actually occurred.

The freelancer cited the client's feedback to her.

But the client's feedback does not say that the client demanded a tax payment from the freelancer.

The client's feedback states that the freelancer did not want to pay taxes.

I think it's obvious that the client was seeking a payment from the freelancer; you're splitting hairs just because they didn't say "to us". How would they know whether she pays taxes or not? Has any client of yours ever asked you whether you pay taxes? It's absolutely ridiculous to leave bad feedback based on this.

Also, I'm surprised that it's not a TOS violation to demand I.D. from a freelancer, because it certainly ought to be; a lot of scamming clients do this and I've seen Upwork mods advise against providing it. Therefore, how is it fair if the OP refused to provide I.D. and the client left bad feedback because of it? This should not be allowed either.

prestonhunter · ‎08-06-2019

re: "...you're splitting hairs just because they didn't say 'to us'"

If it was my decision, I would have already settled the matter in the freelancer's favor.

It IS obvious to me what happened.

I'm simply speculating about Upwork's decision making here.

feed_my_eyes · ‎08-06-2019

Preston H wrote:

I'm simply speculating about Upwork's decision making here.

Fair enough, but it sounds more like you're excusing them from doing the right thing. We see complaints about "unfairness" regarding JSS and feedback on a daily basis, but in this case I'm 100% on the OP's side.

prestonhunter · ‎08-06-2019

re: "...but it sounds more like you're excusing them from doing the right thing."

I can see how it may seem that way.

For the record... I have thought all along that this is a preposterous situation.

Unfortunately, you and I are only observers trying to make sense of the situation. We don't have any say-so.

I have said in the past that Upwork should give us some authority to take some direct action on things like that. But they're not going to do so.

spictor · ‎08-07-2019

So that means that if a client knows how to manipulate words, he could get away with any TOS violation, not only that, but also leaves the freelancer a bad review.

It is pure symantics if the client said "she did not want to pay taxes", it should not really matter if they say "to us" or not, the job is not related to finance, upwork clearly handles all the financial aspects of the contract, including taxes, and I doubt that she was asking her client for financial advise, even if, that would not be a valid reason to give her a bad review.

My first point is: Upwork is handeling the financial aspects of this contract, payments, taxes, fees and refunds, so the customer mention of taxes is a violation, second point is: Up work is responsible for the verification of both the client and the freelancers documentations and identity, so the client mention of his request of her ID is another violation. and in my opinion, being bald enough to mention these two violations in a feedback should be considered a violation as well.

petra_r · ‎08-07-2019

Helmy E wrote:
, the job is not related to finance, upwork clearly handles all the financial aspects of the contract, including taxes,
...Upwork is handeling the financial aspects of this contract, payments, taxes,

Upwork does not handle taxes.

Helmy E wrote:
so the client mention of his request of her ID is another violation.

No, it is not. As has already been confirmed.

a_lipsey · ‎08-07-2019

At the very least it seems like this is questionable and to be fair, UpWork should remove that client's feedback. If they were happy with the work and paid, and then are leaving feedback because they couldn't get their money back (for whatever reason - even for "taxes") then to me it sounds like a fradulent review that is not about the actual job done. It sounds like "oh FL did a great job but then wouldn't give us our money back, even though we are happy with the work, so we are leaving a bad review."

kat303 · ‎08-07-2019

Can't wait to see the next feedback -

1 star

Although I was happy with the work the freelancer did, I gave her 1 star because she refused to buy equipment. Also she refused to give her bank account information.

There is NO need for ANY freelancer to give their ID. If a client wants an ID they need to contact Upwork. She has a profile, her full name is available upon hiring, the city and state and/or country is listed and employment is listed. What more would a client want from a freelancer. There is also no need to pay taxes whether it be directly to the client which is a TOS violation or even to let the client know that they pay taxes in the country they reside in. It's none of a clients business about anything to do with taxes. That is NOT a reason to give negative feedback.

Besides that, that information that the OP didn't give was requested AFTER the work was received and approved. If that was requested BEFORE the contract was accepted then that would be a different story.

The OP is a Freelancer, NOT an employee. She is here to perform a service, nothing more, nothing less. And to give a negative feedback based on the refusal to give an ID or pay taxes and not on the quality of the completed work which he was happy with and approved and paid her for is blatantly wrong.

In addition to the feedback above, soon clients will be posting. I gave 1 star, not for the work received which was excellent, but because she had brown hair.

Feedback, both public and private should be based on the quality of the work the client received and/or the rudeness or professionalism of the freelancer. This situation is a unique case and I sure hope that Upwork will realise this and remove both the public AND private feedback and not let this affect the OP's JSS.

Client ordered me to send my ID and to pay taxes!