Client refusing to pay again

[ilannamandel]

I posted on this a few weeks ago. I thought it was resolved. I put my work through several plagiarism checks. The editor checked everything. Funds were supposed to be released tomorrow. Tonight I received a message saying he won't pay as I "copied" my work from sources, and he can't use the work. He won't show me the proof.  Please advise. 

[varungs]

If it's an hourly contract and you've written detailed memos, you'll be fine. Let the client file a dispute; he'll lose. If it's a fixed contract, you're probably screwed if your client is adamant on screwing you over (I'm assuming they are because they're not providing evidence of their claim). Let's hope he backs down or stops responding, else you'll have no choice but to concede unless the amount is greater than $291, in which case you should proceed with arbitration.

[ilannamandel]

I am also determined that he will know I don't back down. I can file a complaint through consumer complaint channels. They will, at the very least, investigate him and his credit rating could suffer. 

[petra_r · Accepted solution]

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Varun G wrote:

else you'll have no choice but to concede unless the amount is greater than $291, in which case you should proceed with arbitration.

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I understand that you are new and inexperienced, but the above is simply bad advice. Arbitration is the last step of the process, and even if it gets to the point of arbitration, the freelancer can still walk away with the money in Escrow and the arbitration fee.

Ilanna, I suggest you submit again and inform the client that you will have to file a dispute. You have already explained the matter to the client, give them one last chance to do the right thing, then dispute.

During the dispute, Upwork will try to get you to reach an understanding, if that is not possible, you will be given the chance to go to arbitration. In the very unlikely even that it goes that far, please come back and ask for further advice.

[ilannamandel]

Client is now asking for all his money back saying I plagiarised everything. I have put all of my work through Grammarly's plagiarism check and it comes up as 1 or 2%. The client's base level was 5%.  So all of the six chapters I wrote, all of the quizzes and the 100 question exam have passed. It's up to Upwork now. 

[richardsmith94]

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ILANNA M wrote:

Client is now asking for all his money back saying I plagiarised everything. I have put all of my work through Grammarly's plagiarism check and it comes up as 1 or 2%. The client's base level was 5%.  So all of the six chapters I wrote, all of the quizzes and the 100 question exam have passed. It's up to Upwork now. 

How do you keep managing to find these clients Ilanna that seem to create nothing but problems for you? Perhaps you've been unlucky, but I would strongly suggest that you either consider the tasks you are applying for or, how you manage them.

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[tlbp]

This client is such a scammer. Did it go to dispute yet? 

[ilannamandel]

This is the client's argument: 

Just because you arranged content to pass a plagiarism check doesn't make it your content.  He says he can't and won't use the work and wants all his money back. 

This is SO FRUSTRATING. 

[AveryO]

Hi Ilanna, 

It looks like this is a fixed-price contract, and the milestone has already been funded. You have the option of disputing the money in escrow if you think you deserve to be paid for the work you submitted. You may read up on this help article for more information about Fixed-Price Protection. 

[ilannamandel]

I know all that. But the client did this on purpose, the night before funds were to be released. He's refusing to give any details, and just keeps saying changes are needed. It's a ploy not to pay. 

[wlyonsatl]

Ilanna,

As you describe the situation, your client is basing his complaint on a matter of fact, not opinion.

If he can't provide you and Upwork with proof of his claim of plagiarism as a reason to withhold payment from you, then he is being dishonest and committing a fraud, which is a violation of Upwork's terms of service, to which you and he have agreed to abide.

If that's the case, this should not need to go to arbitration.

Please come back to this thread and let us know how this works out for you.

Good luck.

[ilannamandel]

Will,

Thank you for that response. I agree with you. In his own words, he cleared the work. However, he dislikes me and that is the foundation for his poor and inappropriate behaviour. I am determined not to let him get away with this. As I've said, I'll also file a formal complaint with Consumer Affairs if I need to. 

Thank you for your support.

Happy Holidays to everyone!

Ilanna 

[prestonhunter]

Bad client. Bad person. He knows full well that your work is not plagiarism. He is just using Upwork's user interface and the "fixed-price loophole" to try to get out of paying for the work. He fully intends to use it.

Will expresses hope that Upwork will unilaterally make a decision about this without going to arbitration. I wish that such a thing was routinely and quickly handled by Upwork. But that is not how things usually work.

Escrow is a two-edged sword. It ensures that payment is in place, but escrow rules mean that Upwork can't simply release money to freelancers when a client is being a goofball.

Ultimately, I don't have a simple, clean solution for situations such as this. What I personally do (which may not work for everyone) is handle fixed-price contracts proactively... setting up only small contracts with a new client, until she demonstrates that she can be trusted. If a client is going to play games, I can walk away, retaining ownership of the work I did. But it was not a lot of work. Not too much time and effort invested. Only very rarely have I had to pull the plug and walk away, but for me that is preferable to wasting time with a client who plays games with the fixed-contract model.

[ilannamandel]

Yes, he's playing games alright. But, something else is at work. The former Clinical Counsellor in me can't help notice that he's a very angry man. He blasts at me and called me names which I've pointed out. He doesn't like that I fought back. He would have loved for me to walk away, but I won't. In the meantime, I have plenty of other work which I'm focusing on. Thanks for the support! 

[prestonhunter]

He probably has much bigger problems than you do.

I wish you well and hope you will keep us posted about what happens.

And I am not saying YOU should walk away. You deserve to be paid.

You are six chapters and many quizzes into this.

But it might be different if you had only written a half of a chapter and that was the first milestone. Then maybe it would be easy to just close the contract yourself and post the work in your portfolio.

[ilannamandel]

This is affrecting me personally and professionally. I have been a freelancer for 20 years. I've worked with clients all over the world. NOT ONE single client has ever accused me of plagiarism. I'm very upset about this, and have been in tears over this. To me, this is libel. 

[lysis10]

They say all kinds of things to get their money back. Just dispute it and let him rant into the void.

[petra_r]

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ILANNA M wrote:

This is affrecting me personally and professionally.

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Don't let it, Ilanna. Stand up for yourself. It's a numbers game. Sooner or later we all encounter a true fruitcake of a client. Remember that the beauty of freelancing is that such clients are a temporary pain in the proverbial. Just imagine the poor darlings who have to suffer him day-in, day-out (employees, family, and he himself.)

If I were you I'd dig in deep and refuse to budge an inch when it comes to mediation. Say "I am not willing to compromise on the payment I have worked for."

The beauty of the dispute system is that the freelancer generally gets to choose to go to arbitration first. The client KNOWS he can't win arbitration, so if you stand firm, chances are he will roll over and give in before it gets anywhere near that.

[ilannamandel]

His argument is this: 

On the first pass, his check on copyscape found tons of plagiarism.  

However, I pointed out to him that it was picking up a lot of my original writing which is published.  So, I reworded my own work so that it would be completely original.  Most of this was in literary passages and other areas of the reading section. After I did this, it went down to 1% plagiarism. 

All of my quizzes, and 100 questions in the final exam passed on the first search.

His argument is that reworking my content doesn't make it my content. 

Huh?

[petra_r]

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ILANNA M wrote:

Huh?

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Stop arguing with him until it gets to dispute, then then say as much as strictly necessary and as little as possible.

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ILANNA M wrote:

His argument is that reworking my content doesn't make it my content. 

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He "sort of" has a point there actually. When you sell something to a client which has already been published and indexed by google, the waters get rather muddy because that would make what you published as your own previously your client's too.  When a client hires you to produce content, you can't really use stuff you have already published because... well... it has already been published as yours.

[ilannamandel]

Yes, I agreed and reworked it to be completely different. I tailored it to his needs. Nevertheless, that's what he calls plagiarism. 

Here are reviews of one of his products:

https://www.amazon.com/MCAT-AudioLearn-Complete-Science-Admission/dp/1592620264

Pretty poor, actually. Also, i went to his website and it's awful. I should have done this before, and I will. He claims he's published 400 courses, but I found 13.

[tlsanders]

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ILANNA M wrote:

This is affrecting me personally and professionally. 

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Ilanna, imagine that you are walking down the street one day and a complete stranger with dirty clothing and wild hair zeroes in on you and shouts out that you are a witch responsible for having cursed his great grandmother in 1872.

This is that.

[ilannamandel]

OMG Tiffany, you nailed it! Thank you so much. You made my day. I really should have read reviews of his company first. They're awful! Only 3 courses have good reviews. Most trash the company and the work as being terrible. No wonder he's in a bad mood. 

Also weird is I can't find any information on him. Nothing. 

[levine_olivia]

Hi Ilanna,

I was wondering how you ended up resolving this. I am now in a situation where I provided a client with 200+ articles about different mental health topics and his client posted my work on their website, and they are refusing to pay me. I have gotten Upwork involved, but this is still not resolved!

[ilannamandel]

Sadly, I never did. He got away with it. Even more to the point, Upwork did nothing! I find this website's dispute resolution to be lame and ineffective. I had to go to a lawyer to send a demand letter but in current times, I can't pursue court action, so I had to absorb the loss. And again, Upwork still allows this individual to keep posting jobs despite his poor ranking and reviews. 

[versailles]

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Olivia L wrote:

Hi Ilanna,

I was wondering how you ended up resolving this. I am now in a situation where I provided a client with 200+ articles about different mental health topics and his client posted my work on their website, and they are refusing to pay me. I have gotten Upwork involved, but this is still not resolved!

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Click here: https://www.upwork.com/ab/f/home/

Do you see the job in question?

[levine_olivia]

Psychologist needed for content 

[colettelewis]

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Olivia L wrote:

Psychologist needed for content 

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______________________________

How many articles did you agree to write for the amount funded in escrow?  And when you delivered the work did you ask for the funds to be released? 

[levine_olivia]

He was supposed to fund the first milestone to $1,000 upon agreement of the contract. and then fund the rest of the milestones for every 100 articles submitted. None of that happened, and I just assumed I would get paid all at the end since I asked to extend the deadline to have all 300 articles by April 30th instead of 100 a month dec, jan, and feb. 

[versailles]

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Olivia L wrote:

He was supposed to fund the first milestone to $1,000 upon agreement of the contract. and then fund the rest of the milestones for every 100 articles submitted. None of that happened, and I just assumed I would get paid all at the end since I asked to extend the deadline to have all 300 articles by April 30th instead of 100 a month dec, jan, and feb. 

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You need to read this. All of it.

https://community.upwork.com/t5/New-to-Upwork/Getting-Started-on-Upwork/td-p/264214

[levine_olivia]

I know now that I shouldn't have submitted any work without funds in escrow. However, the client is using all of my intellectual property on their website without permission (i.e., without paying). 

[petra_r]

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Olivia L wrote:

I know now that I shouldn't have submitted any work without funds in escrow. However, the client is using all of my intellectual property on their website without permission (i.e., without paying). 

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Then inform the client that you own all of the unpaid articles and unless you are paid within 5 days, you will file DMCA takedown notices with their host immediately for every article published and not paid for.

You can do that for free and it's pretty easy.

[levine_olivia]

Thank you I will do that. Even if they take it down, I still believe they owe me money for the huge amount of work I did for them, and they definitely still owe me money for all the articles they've used. 

[feed_my_eyes]

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Olivia L wrote:

Thank you I will do that. Even if they take it down, I still believe they owe me money for the huge amount of work I did for them, and they definitely still owe me money for all the articles they've used. 

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Obviously they owe you money, but unfortunately if the escrow account wasn't funded, then Upwork won't be able to help you get it.

[colettelewis]

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Olivia L wrote:

Thank you I will do that. Even if they take it down, I still believe they owe me money for the huge amount of work I did for them, and they definitely still owe me money for all the articles they've used. 

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____________________________________

Morally, they owe you money, but realistically, you are not going to get it. So all you can do is to implement a little damage limitation. You can ask for takedown as the client is using your work without having paid you. You can use your own work in your portfolio. You can adapt the work and sell it to someone else. You can also tell the client your intentions. 

[colettelewis]

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Olivia L wrote:

Hi Ilanna,

I was wondering how you ended up resolving this. I am now in a situation where I provided a client with 200+ articles about different mental health topics and his client posted my work on their website, and they are refusing to pay me. I have gotten Upwork involved, but this is still not resolved!

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______________________

Can you give us more details? What sort of Upwork contract do you have with this client? 

[levine_olivia]

Fixed priced contract. He is now claiming there are problems with the articles after they posted so many of them to the website!! 

[jr-translation]

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Olivia L wrote:

Hi Ilanna,

I was wondering how you ended up resolving this. I am now in a situation where I provided a client with 200+ articles about different mental health topics and his client posted my work on their website, and they are refusing to pay me. I have gotten Upwork involved, but this is still not resolved!

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File a DMCA.