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alexroscoe
Community Member

Client threatening to sue

So I’ve had a client since July to bulid an application. It was decided that the project will be split into 3 milestones. The client approved and released the first two milestones, and now refuses to fund the remaining milestone.

The work was completed for the last milestone and the client gave verbal approval but then weeks later took that back and demanded it be fixed. I asked for the milestone to be funded in order to qualify for Upwork protection. The client is now harassing and threatening me outside of Upwork saying they are going to sue me for the funded milestones.

The last milestone was paid in July and thus not within the last 30 days. What are my options here and does the client have the right to get a refund for work already approved.

To clarify I am not seeking the last milestone and am willing to give the files from it at no cost just to end this headache.
27 REPLIES 27
petra_r
Community Member



So I’ve had a client since July to bulid an application. It was decided that the project will be split into 3 milestones. The client approved and released the first two milestones, and now refuses to fund the remaining milestone.

The work was completed for the last milestone and the client gave verbal approval but then weeks later took that back and demanded it be fixed. I asked for the milestone to be funded in order to qualify for Upwork protection.

Very unwise. The second the client funds the 3rd milestone, he can dispute the entire contract (yes, milestones 1 and 2, too)

 

Is the contract still open?

 



The last milestone was paid in July and thus not within the last 30 days. What are my options here and does the client have the right to get a refund for work already approved.

The client can not dispute milestones 1 and 2 through Upwork or force you to work on milestone 3 unless he funds milestone 3. If he does fund milestone 3, he can.

 

Either way the client is obviously free to take legal actions. Whether there is a realistic chance of that happening depends on a lot of factors, including whether you are in the same jurisdiction.

The contract is still open but has no active milestones. Should I end the contract?

The client is based in New York and I am in Florida so I think that’s outside jurisdiction. Also the amount is $800 if that matters.

I just read that you can decline a milestone though. So couldn't the OP decline that unfunded milestone and leave it at that? 

petra_r
Community Member


Amanda L wrote:

I just read that you can decline a milestone though. So couldn't the OP decline that unfunded milestone and leave it at that? 


There is no (real) way to "decline a milestone." There never has been. It's a much repeated myth. The only way to "decline" a milestone is to end the contract.

 

Alex, you and the client are both in the US, so he "could" sue you easily enough. Whether he thinks it's worth his while to do so or not is another question.

 

I would send the client whatever work was done and end the contract before the client gets a chance to fund the 3rd milestone. Expect poor feedback.

a_lipsey
Community Member

2019-11-01.png

So even though it explicitly says this, that's a  lie?

Hi Amanda,

 

I believe you are looking at the Add and Edit Future Milestones help center article that talks about adding, editing and deleting future milestones not about active ones. This fairly new feature was also announced by Lena here in the Community.

 

The help article is correct and freelancers can edit or delete future milestones. Freelancers can't make changes or delete an active funded milestone though and the same article talks about it here:

Screenshot_1.png 

~ Valeria
Upwork


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Amanda,

 

I believe you are looking at the Add and Edit Future Milestones help center article that talks about adding, editing and deleting future milestones not about active ones. This fairly new feature was also announced by Lena here in the Community.

 

The help article is correct and freelancers can edit or delete future milestones. Freelancers can't make changes or delete an active funded milestone though and the same article talks about it here:

Screenshot_1.png 


Thanks Valeria. So the OP says the 3rd milestone is unfunded, so that would mean it's a future inactive milestone, correct? So he could delete technically, is that correct? 

 

Thank you for clarifying!

Amanda,

 

I checked the contract I believe Alex is referring to and the third milestone is active (funded.) They are being assisted by our Mediation team with the contract. Unfortunately, I won't be able to go into further detail about this specific contract and mediation here in the Community. 

~ Valeria
Upwork

Thanks for the clarifications, Valeria! 

Edited: Already answered.


So should I end the contract now or should I wait for Upwork to weigh in.

I am the freelancer in Florida and the client is in New York. She is continually emailing me with a new threat every couple hours trying to get me to send her $800.

Hi Alex, 

 

I see you are already communicating with our team via support tickets about this contract. Let me check with the team about the status and we'll continue assisting you via the open ticket.

Thanks!

~ Valeria
Upwork


Alex R wrote:
So should I end the contract now or should I wait for Upwork to weigh in.

I am the freelancer in Florida and the client is in New York. She is continually emailing me with a new threat every couple hours trying to get me to send her $800.

Alex, when was the 3rd milestone funded? You said earlier it wasn't!

Sorry for the misunderstanding no it was never funded. The first two milestones totaled $800 the 3rd was never and still isn’t funded.

Alex, could you please share the ID# of the contract you are referring to? You can find it under the Terms and Settings tab of the contract room. I'll double check.

~ Valeria
Upwork

The contract ID is 22400757

Thanks, Alex. Apologies, Alex and Amanda, that was a mistake on my part as I was looking at a different contract. Let me check this one.

 

Edited to add:

I checked this contract, and see that both you and your client have tickets with our Customer Support team and the agent informed both of you about the refund options. I'll have the tickets escalated so that any remaining questions you have could be addressed as soon as possible. 

~ Valeria
Upwork

re: "Also the amount is $800 if that matters."

 

It matters A LOT.

 

To hire an attorney to sue somebody in another state could easily cost thousands of dollars just to get started.

 

On the other hand, to hire attorneys to defend yourself against something like this could cost many thousands of dollars.

 

Client in New York and freelancer in Florida?

 

You are correct: You do not live within the client's jurisdiction, and the client CAN NOT sue you due to jurisdictional reasons.

 

You are also incorrect. The client CAN sue you, and you do NOT live outside the jurisdictional reach of the client.

 

As with most things "legal", jurisdictional considerations are not totally "binary." It's not like a computer program where something either IS or IS NOT going to happen based on certain input. A client's attorney can file suit against somebody in another state, and a freelancer's attorney can file an injunction against such a suit based on jurisdiction. Who is right? It might be left to a single judge to decide. Not a computer program that uses geolocation. But a judge who makes a human decision. Nobody could tell you beforehand what the decision would be. To get to that point? That might be $3000 or more in attorney's fees right there.

 

re: "I would send the client whatever work was done and end the contract before the client gets a chance to fund the 3rd milestone."

 

This is excellent advice.

 

Somebody who threatens to "sue" you is NOT somebody you want to be doing business with.

re: "So even though it explicitly says this, that's a lie?"

 

As with any website, Help documents are intended to be helpful. But statements made in Help documents or FAQ pages do not govern how Upwork works.

 

Such material may be out of date. It may have been inaccurate even at the time that it was written.

 

At one one time there are many things in help documents that are not accurate. I don't consider these things "lies."

 

I understand that such things can be frustrating, but this is not unusual.


Preston H wrote:

re: "So even though it explicitly says this, that's a lie?"

 

As with any website, Help documents are intended to be helpful. But statements made in Help documents or FAQ pages do not govern how Upwork works.

 

Such material may be out of date. It may have been inaccurate even at the time that it was written.

 

At one one time there are many things in help documents that are not accurate. I don't consider these things "lies."

 

I understand that such things can be frustrating, but this is not unusual.


I'm sorry, Preston, but I find that to be utter hogwash.   I have never had  any other provider of any service leave factually incorrect information on how to use their service on a public page AND not take responsibility that it is incorrect should the client (in this case the freelancer or client) have a problem arising from their incorrect information. It is UpWork's responsibility to provide factually correct information on how to use their service otherwise they are misleading their clients (both freelancers and clients are the client here) and are liable. 

Amanda:
I can think of many examples of this on Upwork.

 

One of the best-known examples is the recommendation to greet clients by name, even though a client's name is NOT provided in job postings.

 

For me, I look at these things in this way:

It really does not matter if Upwork has some documentation somewhere that says a freelancer can do something (such as "delete a milestone").

 

What matters is the actual functionality of the software and the actual policies taken by Upwork personnel.

 

Software doesn't read instruction manuals. Software works according to source code.

 

So if Help documentation says you can do something, but that doesn't work, then the Help documentation is wrong. In an ideal world, these two things would be in harmony. But that is not always the case.


Preston H wrote:

 

Client in New York and freelancer in Florida?

 

You are correct: You do not live within the client's jurisdiction, and the client CAN NOT sue you due to jurisdictional reasons.

 

You are also incorrect. The client CAN sue you, and you do NOT live outside the jurisdictional reach of the client.

 

As with most things "legal", jurisdictional considerations are not totally "binary." It's not like a computer program where something either IS or IS NOT going to happen based on certain input. A client's attorney can file suit against somebody in another state, and a freelancer's attorney can file an injunction against such a suit based on jurisdiction. Who is right? It might be left to a single judge to decide. Not a computer program that uses geolocation. But a judge who makes a human decision. Nobody could tell you beforehand what the decision would be. To get to that point? That might be $3000 or more in attorney's fees right there.

 

 


Preston, this is gobbledygook. Any reputable attorney would simply advise the client that he/she had to sue in the freelancer's jurisdiction. They don't just file suit in a court without jurisdiction and hope for the best--that type of action results in being required to pay the other party's attorney fees and other costs and sometimes in sanctions against the attorney. 

 

Jurisdictional rules are VERY clear, and it is very rare that they are litigated in any meaningful way. When it happens, it is typically in a very large case involving parties in multiple states and with huge sums of money at stake.

Tiffany: I really wish you were right about this.

 

But the truth is that a client can file a suit in his own jurisdiction and sue a freelancer in another state. Jurisdictional matters aren't nearly as clear cut as you may think.

 

(Feel free to PM me if you want more details.)

 

But I completely agree with you that it is unlikely that this particular freelancer is going to have anything like that happen to him over a contract that was for $800 or less.


Preston H wrote:

Tiffany: I really wish you were right about this.

 


You do know she's a lawyer, don't you?

Unfortunately, she is completely wrong about this.


As I know from firsthand experience.


Preston H wrote:

Tiffany: I really wish you were right about this.

 

But the truth is that a client can file a suit in his own jurisdiction and sue a freelancer in another state. Jurisdictional matters aren't nearly as clear cut as you may think.

 

(Feel free to PM me if you want more details.)

 

But I completely agree with you that it is unlikely that this particular freelancer is going to have anything like that happen to him over a contract that was for $800 or less.


Preston, if you re-read my response, what I said was that any reputable attorney would advise the client of the proper jurisdiction for filing the case and would decline to file it in the wrong one.

 

Of course, anyone can file a lawsuit against anyone, anywhere. But, when you do it wrong, there are consequences. I could file a lawsuit against you in Nebraska for using a profile picture I don't like--that much is true. But, the case would be dismissed, and there's a very high probability that I'd have to pay the attorney you hired to get the case dismissed, and any other related expenses. And, if an attorney had filed the case on my behalf, he or she might well be fined or otherwise sanctioned.

 

If you are suggesting that there are times when jurisdiction is proper in a state where the freelancer does not live, that is true. There are certain activities a person or business can engage in that subjects them to the jurisdiction of other courts. But, the typical Upwork relationship does not include even a hint of that type of activity.

Thank you for the additional clarification about what you meant.

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