Connects Refund

[maemargaretm]

I have withdrawn an application and expected the number of connects to be refunded but it did not. Aside from a job being canceled, what are the instances where the connects will be refunded?

[prestonhunter · Accepted solution]

re: "I have withdrawn an application and expected the number of connects to be refunded but it did not."

That is correct.

The connects were not refunded, and will not be refunded.

re: "Aside from a job being canceled, what are the instances where the connects will be refunded?"

Connects are refunded if Upwork removes a job posting because it violated Upwork ToS.

Connects are not refunded because a freelancer withdraws her application.

[maemargaretm]

I see. Thanks, Preston. I thought all along that withdrawing an application would bring back my connects.

[ruslan08]

Thanks Preston for explaining the situation.

Recently I have noticed that several jobs that I applied were closed and I got emails saying that my proposal was archive, yet I didn't get any connects refunded for those closed jobs.

Attached is a screenshot of my connects history page.

I got 2 more jobs that were closed or expired and didn't get connects refunded for them. 

Hope you can take a look at this and tell me why.

Thanks in advance.

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

[petra_r]

---

Ruslan R wrote:

I got 2 more jobs that were closed or expired and didn't get connects refunded for them. 

---

You get the connects refunded ONLY in the two scenarios below:

1) when a client proactively cancels the job post without having hired anyone

2) When Upwork cancels a job post for policy violation.

So when job posts expire or are closed by someone being hired, you don't get your connects back.

[ruslan08]

Thanks Petra for taking a look into this.

One more question: what happens if a job expires after a certain deadline? After 1 month or so, I guess.

Do I get my connects back?

[petra_r]

---

Ruslan R wrote:

what happens if a job expires after a certain deadline? After 1 month or so, I guess.

Do I get my connects back?

---

As has now been pointed out in several different ways:

No.

[adminron]

Thanks Petra. That helps.

[bedc1889]

The same problem I am having.

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Syed,

We return Connects only when a client closes their job without hiring or we find a job post has violated our Terms of Service. Thank you.

[testpu]

Don't you think that is it a cheating? It is possible to create a lot of fake jobs and just wait for expiry to collect money from freelancers, isn't it?

[feed_my_eyes]

---

Evgeny T wrote:

Don't you think that is it a cheating? It is possible to create a lot of fake jobs and just wait for expiry to collect money from freelancers, isn't it?

---

If I thought that Upwork was posting fake jobs just to cheat me out of a few cents, then I would stop using this website. 

But I do think that their connects policy, as it stands right now, is ridiculous and confusing.

Freelancers get connects back if a client closes their job posting, but not if it expires? That just causes resentment against clients who disappear without hiring, and many complaints for Upwork to "do something" about this.

Then last year, Upwork told us that clients didn't like getting so many responses to their posts, so they implemented paid connects as a way of supposedly dealing with this problem. But now they've changed their minds and are refunding connects on SOME job posts, which is only causing further confusion. (I'm guessing that clients who were posting jobs with vague descriptions and low budgets have complained about receiving fewer bids, or else Upwork wouldn't have changed their minds about this.)

So now the policy is, "Connects aren't refunded unless the job is a scam or clients don't proactively close their job (but not if Upwork closes the job because it expired) or in certain random job posts that have a flashing blue dot." Great. Wouldn't it be better to just have a clear policy so that freelancers aren't so confused and frustrated (and no doubt constantly contacting customer service to find out why their connects aren't refunded)? How about "Connects will not be refunded unless the job is a scam"? Period. Or, if paid connects are really about ensuring that clients don't get inundated with responses, why not just give everyone 30 free connects per month, with no possibility to ever use more than that limit?

[redwarp]

I have just fallen foul of this and spoken to support.

Upon looking as the terms that they are now quoting. The "Refund available" indicator, means absolutely nothing. If a job is genuine and a hire is made, they now claim that connects are not refunded in that scenario.

My question is then, the taking of connects in the first place is actually a scam itself because there are almost no circumstances where they would be refunded. The circumstances that would attract a refund are a) Job removed by employer or b) Job removed by Upwork. BOTH of these circumstances should warrant the connects being refunded anyway as the contractor has been asked to spend connects on something that has subsequently disappeared ! This is normal "sale of goods" type expected behaviour.

This whole scheme is flawed and biased towards NEVER making a refund, whilst attracting more proposals by advertising that they will be !! It seems to me like the contractors are being scammed.

[petra_r]

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Phil G wrote:

Upon looking as the terms that they are now quoting. The "Refund available" indicator, means absolutely nothing. If a job is genuine and a hire is made, they now claim that connects are not refunded in that scenario.

---

That's why it says "Refunded if client does not hire"

If the client hires someone, there is no refund. It seems some people misunderstand that and think it means "Refunded if the client does not hire YOU"

[redwarp]

Like I said in my first post, this is deliberately deceptive. If no refund is made because the client has made a hire, there is no difference between that and "normal operation". If refund is made because the job is removed by Upwork or removed by the client, then that is no more than "correct terms of engagement". Contractors should always expect their connects to be refunded if the job "disappears".

My view is that this "scheme" is exactly that, a scheme designed to hook contractors in and trick them into bidding on jobs and "spending" connects that they have little or no chance of having returned. Dare I say its a scam !!

[petra_r]

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Phil G wrote:

Like I said in my first post, this is deliberately deceptive. If no refund is made because the client has made a hire, there is no difference between that and "normal operation".

---

Not true.

Normally, if a job post expires without anyone being hired, the connects are NOT returned. 

[redwarp]

If that is indeed the case, then there is a problem with the terms of service from Upwork !

If we have to "pay" to bid for an item in an auction and that item "disappears" or the auction never completes, then people who have "paid" to take part in the auction have been cheated ! Under normal "sale of goods" act, this type of situation would normally attract a refund.

I will be looking more closely at Upwork's terms of service because I believe this to be in breach of the rights that we should normally expect under common law and UCC as contractors.

[petra_r]

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Phil G wrote:

If that is indeed the case, then there is a problem with the terms of service from Upwork !

If we have to "pay" to bid for an item in an auction and that item "disappears" or the auction never completes, then people who have "paid" to take part in the auction have been cheated ! Under normal "sale of goods" act, this type of situation would normally attract a refund.

I will be looking more closely at Upwork's terms of service because I believe this to be in breach of the rights that we should normally expect under common law and UCC as contractors.

---

It's not an auction.

Connects aren't "Goods"

"common law" where?

"UCC"?

[testpu]

Since contractors participate in bidding process - it is definitelly an auction. Connects are not "Goods" but it is a payment for participation in the auction.

With regards to connects refund there are 3 scenarios:

1. Someone was hired - auсtion was held and all other auction participants lost their connects. It is OK.

2. Nobody was hired because a client changed his mind to hire anyone. Contractors didn't do anything wrong and connects should be refunded for the case because the auction was cancelled (it doesn't matter if is was cancelled by a client or just expired). 

3. Nobody was hired because contractors do not have required skills. For the case it is OK if conencts are not refunded.

There is only one question - how to distinguish the cases 2 and 3. But I beleive it can be solved by a modification of the auction process/rules.

[petra_r]

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Evgeny T wrote:

Since contractors participate in bidding process - it is definitelly an auction. .

---

It isn't.

[jr-translation]

---

Evgeny T wrote:

Since contractors participate in bidding process - it is definitelly an auction. Connects are not "Goods" but it is a payment for participation in the auction.

With regards to connects refund there are 3 scenarios:

1. Someone was hired - auсtion was held and all other auction participants lost their connects. It is OK.

2. Nobody was hired because a client changed his mind to hire anyone. Contractors didn't do anything wrong and connects should be refunded for the case because the auction was cancelled (it doesn't matter if is was cancelled by a client or just expired). 

3. Nobody was hired because contractors do not have required skills. For the case it is OK if conencts are not refunded.

There is only one question - how to distinguish the cases 2 and 3. But I beleive it can be solved by a modification of the auction process/rules.

---

There is a difference between an auction and a tender. At an auction is a process in which end the item is sold to the highest bidder or bought from the lowest bidder. Is that what you want for Upwork?

[redwarp]

UCC = Universal commercial code, the legal umbrella that covers all contracts, worldwide.

Connects have to be paid for and therefore they are, in effect, "currency"

There is a bidding process and, in law, the most closely associated "model" that any court could use as a guide to judge on the case, would be an auction. I am confident that any barrister would agree that this is the case.

As regards to how this falls under common law. Firstly, everything falls under common law. Secondly, if a contractor uses their "currency" (connects) to pay for inclusion in an auction process in the hope of winning the "job", then that constitutes goods/services. If that "job" is then deleted by either Upwork or by the original client, then the contractor has "paid" for goods/services that cannot or will not be delivered (as the "job" no longer exists in its original form). Under common law, this has caused the contractor a loss by virtue of an effectively fraudulent action on the part of Upwork or the client. As such, that loss would be deemed to be recoverable in a court of law, together with any associated costs.

[petra_r]

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Phil G wrote:

UCC = Universal commercial code, the legal umbrella that covers all contracts, worldwide.

---

It doesn't. (US only)

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Phil G wrote:

Under common law,

There is no such thing as worldwide common law.

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Phil G wrote:

As such, that loss would be deemed to be recoverable in a court of law, together with any associated costs.

---

Good luck with that. Let us all know how that works out for you.

If you went to law school, you want to ask for your tuition fee back.

[redwarp]

That is an interesting standpoint to take.

FYI (from wikidedia for arguments sake):

Today, one-third of the world's population lives in common law jurisdictions or in systems mixed with civil law, including[16] Antigua and Barbuda, Australia,[17][18] Bahamas, Bangladesh, Barbados,[19] Belize, Botswana, Burma, Cameroon, Canada (both the federal system and all its provinces except Quebec), Cyprus, Dominica, Fiji, Ghana, Grenada, Guyana, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Israel, Jamaica, Kenya, Liberia, Malaysia, Malta, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Namibia, Nauru, New Zealand, Nigeria, Pakistan, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Sierra Leone, Singapore, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Trinidad and Tobago, the United Kingdom (including its overseas territories such as Gibraltar), the United States (both the federal system and 49 of its 50 states), and Zimbabwe. Some of these countries have variants on common law systems. In these countries, common law is considered synonymous with case law. 

So that really covers all of Upwork's operational jurisdictions I believe.

As regards asking for my fees back from law school I will take that as sarcasm seing as we are here discussing the non-return of "currency" in the event of what would

a) appear to be a scam and

b) as I suggested it is a scam in my previous post and this raised no form of defence, I conclude that my original assertion is correct.

[petra_r]

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Phil G wrote:

a) appear to be a scam and

b) as I suggested it is a scam in my previous post and this raised no form of defence,

---

... because it's too ridiculous to defend.

If you think it's a scam, stop using it and be done with it.

Alternatively, try to find a lawyer to act on your behalf suing Upwork over the cost of connects. As I said, let us know how that works out for ya.

[redwarp]

It is not the costs of the connects of course.

The issue is that upwork are encouraging contractors to "spend" their connects with an apparent promise that they will be returned if no hire is made when this, by your own admission is not true.

This type of operation, as we both know, is generally accepted to be a scam. An assertion which you have now on three separate occasions, chosen not to contest.

[versailles]

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Phil G wrote:

This type of operation, as we both know, is generally accepted to be a scam. 

---

Yours is a perfectly respectable point of view. I think people shouldn't use a website that is scamming them. I don't see the point of doing so. I would never open an account on a website if I thought it was a scam. Or if I did and I found out later it's a scam (at least in my opinion, regardless of what others may think), I would close the account immediately and I would go someplace else.

I don't think you will buy Petra's poor attempts to explain this. I think you're smarter than she is and you will be gone before soon.

[VladimirG]

Hi Phil,

I'd like to follow up and clarify that Connects are returned in case 1. a job is canceled by the client without making a hire (does not apply to expired job posts) and 2. if a job post has been removed by Upwork for a Terms of Service violation.

I see you appear to be referring to a test part of which we're refunding Connects on selected jobs that don’t hire and have gone dormant.

I'm not sure if this is a misunderstanding but related to your comment quoted below, we do refund Connects for jobs included in the test, which are clearly tagged and include the note and additional explanation I mentioned above.  

---

Phil G wrote:

The issue is that upwork are encouraging contractors to "spend" their connects with an apparent promise that they will be returned if no hire is made when this, by your own admission is not true.

---

I checked the job post from your recent request and can double-confirm the information our Customer Support team provided. Let us know if you need further clarification or assistance.

[redwarp]

The clarification is somewhat late I am afraid.

The fact still remains, the "description" of the terms of a refund is (in my view) deliberately ambiguous, leading most contractors to bid on jobs in the expectation of having connects returned if they are not successful. This, again in my view, is a deliberate attempt to get more bids (and thereby connect debits) for any particular job knowing full well that those connects will never be refunded due to the ambiguous terms.

This equates to a scam in my view. If you are indeed attempting to be honest and transparent, then the wording of the "refunded if no hire" should be clarified to read "refunded if job withdrawn".

I am of the firm belief though that my initial assertion is the reality of this case and therefore will be confirming this as a scam to anybody that asks.

[VladimirG]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the follow-up. Just to further clarify any confusion, I see the job you shared in your support request isn't part of the Connects refund test. Could you please confirm if you're looking at a different job?

For jobs that are part of the test we do display a pop-up, clarifying the conditions under which Connects will be refunded. I understand how the initial line can be confusing under certain circumstances and without reading the note and we've shared that feedback with our team. 

[redwarp]

The job(s) that I have complained about did not show this "beta" popup (or any popup) window. They merely stated as mentioned previously "Refunded if client doesn't hire" this, as I have maintained all along, is misleading and appears deliberately so.

A clearer explanation would be, as suggested previously:

"Refunded if job withdrawn" as these are the only cases where a refund is actually offered !

[petra_r]

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Phil G wrote:

The job(s) that I have complained about did not show this "beta" popup (or any popup) window.

---

It shows when you click on the blue dot. (No, I'd never thought to click on it either)

---

Phil G wrote:

A clearer explanation would be, as suggested previously:

"Refunded if job withdrawn" as these are the only cases where a refund is actually offered !

---

They are also refunded if the job post expires.

Just adding "anyone" would clear it up."Refunded if the client doesn't hire anyone."

[sunilrao]

There are certain jobs in which it states that "Connects will be refunded if client doesn't hire".  see image attached. 

What happens here if client doesn't respond and freelancer withdraws., will that get refunded still?

What happens if client doesn't takes no action on my proposal(reject/invite..) but hires someone, will that qualify for automatic refund?

[BojanS]

Hi Sunil,

If you see that message on the job posting, that means connects will be refunded if that job expires with no hires. If you withdraw your proposal, connects will not be refunded. If they have already hired somebody through the job posting, that'll be reflected in the Activity on this job section like this. 

You can check this announcement thread for more information.

Thank you!

[sunilrao]

Thank you, but if they hire someone else implies I am not hired, so the
refund will happen right?

[zagidausta69]

Hello Dear,

                  I am using Upwork since no one hired me but my connects are not refunded yet jobs are closed now how to get back.

Regards Zaigham Ali Ayub

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Zaigham,

Connects are refunded only when a client closes their job without hiring or we find a job post has violated our Terms of Service. Thank you.

[zagidausta69]

Dear thank you such for your reply and your valuable time the issue i want
to discuss is that a client posted a job a month he has hired the
freelancer and done its work but i think he is not still closing the job
and the second issue i am facing is client post jobs with 10-50 proposals
requirement and then he also send invitations to their previous free
lancers to get job done tell me why he do this if he wants to invite their
previous free lancer than why he put 10-50 proposals demand on job.