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mwatson1982
Member

Connects application rates -- Thoughts

My Upwork acct has just rolled over into the new "pay to play" connects system. While I am unconvinced of Upwork's statements on why these will be "improvements", I am trying to give things a chance. While I complete some jobs, I am looking through my job stream and seeing what kind of rates (of the connects) are being applied to what kinds of jobs. 

 

As suspected, Im definitely seeing some ads that still are getting bombarded with 20-50 applications within a short time.  These same jobs, before the new connect system, definitely gave advantage to the freelancers in countries with a lower cost of living.  Definitely goes against the result that Upwork staff purported during its town hall and explanation of the new system.  While I am taking a more conservative stance on what jobs I apply for, I have felt more liberal in marking more ads as "Budget Too Low" when compared to how often I would do that in the old connects system.  Unfortunatley, between the available flags the "Budget Too Low" designation is the closest choice to apply to this situation.  Really, I figure that for a while, there are going to be mistakes in the connect rate that Upwork staff assesses for jobs.  It would be nice to have a more direct flag to just say "hey, this advert might be requiring an incorrect number of connects for the circumstances and description of this ad" . Again, trying to be patient here and see how things look a month from now.

 

Update: Here is a rundown of the types of sectors my job search and skill set fall into

 

  • 3D Modeling (and some crossover into CAD)
  • Web Design (and specifics to E-commerce websites)
  • Content Management (and related, Data Entry)
  •  *** Between those types of searches and concentration, I also get a bit of product copy writing, and customer service falling into my feed (even If I dont take too many of these jobs on)

One respondant to this thread was correct in that "what I am seeing" may highly depend on what Upwork job categories Im working in.

 

Simply put, I dont think that the analysis of "how many connects to charge" is effective.  Still seeing the same amount of low ball jobs, and the same amount of jobs submitted by those who havent verified payment. I already was disinclined to apply for those before this new system, but Ill tell you... how can they charge 4 connects for such low pay jobs, or for the jobs that have no guarantee of follow through (because payment is not verified).  If there was a "Charging Too Many Connects" flag for ads, I would use that instead.

141 REPLIES 141

The Tiffany is here to help. 🙂




I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

 


Kristine S wrote:
Haha, Tiffany as always have a very constructive comment. I guess you don't know such thing as fair practice when businesses provide the final price, right?
How come that PPH for example do not use the same practice?

_______________________________________
PPH has a completely different MO. It is a very much smaller, private limited company, based in UK with Greek interests and has had its ups and downs like all job sites. It doesn't compare with Upwork in terms of size (or income). 

 

I agree that all these extra pennies-in-the slot to make extra cash could have been better thought out. But when we signed up we agreed to Upwork's conditions, and  have chosen to remain despite not agreeing with the changes. We are also free to leave.  

Very helpful, Nichola! As we have agreed to Upwork's terms, we have to accept with the smile on our faces everything that they do and will do in the future, correct? Thank you also for the suggestion to leave, this is even more helpful and constructive!

xD




I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
xrmsquared
Member

I am seeing a number of projects which require too many connects for the type of work being asked for.

 

There are some projects where the client clearly doesn't know how long the work will take, so they opt for 'less than a month', when really we're talking about hours of work.

 

These jobs are requiring 6 connects to submit a proposal for - it's just not worth it given the low response rates from clients on Upwork.

 

Something is really wrong with Upwork's estimation of the number of connects it should take to submit a proposal. I think it needs revising to err on the side of caution until you have enough data for some Deep Learning algorithm to make better guesses than are being made now.

 

How do you do that? You need human data going into your DL / ML algorithms.

 

How do you do that? You give us frelancers several 'wildcards' per month, where we can override the standard connects policy and to submit proposals using a lower number of connects if we choose to use a 'wildcard'.

 

Then your machine learning algorithm has some extra data to look into where the humans submitting the bids thought the policy was wrong.

 

Please consider implementing such a wildcard system, and in addition please consider topping up the freelancer's available monthly wildcards with each successful bid they win.

Anthony,

 

The main reason Upwork gave for the increase in the number of connects was to reduce the number of proposals clients get per job. Upwork may not want to change the current algorithm if that primary goal is being achieved. 

 

Considering how  bad so many clients are at guessing how much time and effort their jobs will actually require, I don't think any algorithm could be developed for all the types of work done by freelancers here. It's a good thing accuracy and relevance weren't the primary goals.

I see what you're saying Will, but I had noted somewhere that Upwork had said they'll keep an eye on whether the amount of connects required to bid for projects is looking accurate or not.

 

My early view; it's not. I'm not sure what kind of algorithm they are using for this, if there is any Machine Learning behind it or not, but it seems to me there really isn't enough data behind it currently.

 

If they are weighing the client's estimation of time heavily, then very often it's going to be way, way out. I think they need some ML around the tags and job descriptions as much as anything else; and like all good Machine Learning algorithms, it needs human-trained data; hence my suggestion of a limited wildcard system, which would be generating data from freelancers where they judge the number of proposals to be inaccurate, as well as data where it is not (e.g. where they still choose to bid when they've run out of wildcards).

 

At present they're only generating data from freelancers where they will assume the freelancer agrees with the number of connects required; but never where they disagree (for there is no such facility).

 

That's a blind-spot in the data / algorithm that could be filled, whilst also adding a nice dose of fairness into an 'imperfect' system.

Hi, Anthony.

 

Upwork has complete records of all the historical job listings, unsuccessful bids, successful bids, eventual project value, etc. data that would be necessary to set up a "machine learning"-based algorithm that would be able to create connects requirements that are consistent and reflect a direct  relationship between a job's work required, it's eventual value to the freelancer and the connects required to post a proposal for that same job..

 

But if Upwork didn't do the work to get that algorithm built before introducing this system, I don't think there's any reason to believe Upwork will spend the time and money required to significantly improve the existing algorithm in the foreseeable future.

I have to agree here.  When I look at how a company will change things, the WAY IT IS DONE is far more telling into the changes they are making and where the motivation comes from.  The changes they made were a) made on speculation b) have questionable claims about them talking to freelancers and clients alike to get useful feedback.

 

I definitely work in a few different sectors (menitoned in my original post) and I definitely see experiences mirrored here that suggest that, even if thier idea is a good one...they did not give room for its full potential simply because these changes were not applied in any way related to putting people on equal footing (esp in the way that these changes only effect the freelancers)

Mary - Has Upwork ever said or implied that they have wanted to put people on an equal footing?

I dont know if they have implied anything one way or another.  I know Upwork has institutded changes before (and was once known under a different company name). Not sure if anything was implied (about equality) then.

The segue of U. being 'fair' has been discussed time and time again.  And FLer responses are always the same.  U. is not a philanthropic organization or a charitable NGO. U. is a business. U's business is to help buyers and FLers connect - so U can make money.

 

Stop with the 'poor me; this isn't fair' attitude.  Do you run your business on that basis?

Wendy,

 

Upwork is rightly very insistent that freelancers not bill clients for work not performed on hourly jobs, so clients don't have to pay for something they haven't received.

 

If, as others here have claimed, Upwork knowlingly allowing freelancers to waste no-longer-free connects applying to jobs that clients have not specifically told Upwork they want to hire more freelancers for is not a fair approach.

 

If this is happening, at the very least Upwork could default to closing a job to new freelancer proposals after a freelancer has been hired, allowing the client to actively confirm that they want to hire more freelancers in the near term for the same project if they want to keep receiving proposals.

 

And the project's Upwork page should clearly note when at least one freelancer has already been hired, so freelancers are aware of the hiring situation on that project before submitting what can, under the current process, be time, effort and money wasted on a useless proposal.


Will L wrote: The project's Upwork page should clearly note when at least one freelancer has already been hired, so freelancers are aware of the hiring situation on that project before submitting what can, under the current process, be time, effort and money wasted on a useless proposal.

Huh? It does say that.

It says on the job post whether someone has been hired or not, so freelancers are free to look at that and decide accordingly.

 

hired.jpg

 

 

Petra,

 

The type of projects I apply to do not require more than one freelancer, and I am not as steeped in every element of Upworks processes as you are.

 

I have not seen such a notation on any project I have ever applied to, but it is useful to know such a notation can exist.

 

But that really has nothing to do with whether Upwork should make more effort to ensure freelancers are not applying to jobs on which no ffeelancer has any chance of being hired.

 

If you don't think that is happening under the current system, please, do tell. 


Will L wrote:

 

I have not seen such a notation on any project I have ever applied to, but it is useful to know such a notation can exist.


You demanded that job posts "clearly note when at least one freelancer has already been hired"

 

Job posts already do that.

It doesn't require any special knowledge or talent to see it, just a modicum of attention to detail.

 

 

 


Petra R wrote:

Will L wrote:

 

I have not seen such a notation on any project I have ever applied to, but it is useful to know such a notation can exist.


You demanded that job posts "clearly note when at least one freelancer has already been hired"

 

Job posts already do that.

It doesn't require any special knowledge or talent to see it, just a modicum of attention to detail.

 

 

 


Petra, normally I agree with most things you point out.  But this time I have to shake my head and say no.  In the screenshot below, the green "submit proposal" button is clearly encouraging a freelancer to bid on a job that is taken.  Newbies in particular do not have sufficient "modicum of attention to detail" as you or any other seasoned freelancer around here.  This is deceiving and clearly taking money and time away from an unsuspecting freelancer no matter how you look at it.  This job should be closed.

 


Anna T wrote:


Petra, normally I agree with most things you point out.  But this time I have to shake my head and say no.  In the screenshot below, the green "submit proposal" button is clearly encouraging a freelancer to bid on a job that is taken. 


It says "Looking to hire 1 - Hired 1"

Pretty hard  Impossible to miss on the mobile view as per your screenshot if you just look at it. You'd have to tap on the green button blindly to not see it.

 


Anna T wrote:

  Newbies in particular do not have sufficient "modicum of attention to detail" as you or any other seasoned freelancer around here.

They'll learn to pay attention, then. Like the rest of us.

 

If someone does not pay attention to that, (especially on the mobile view where it is right "on" the apply button,  what else do they not pay attention to?)

 

At the moment, clients are asked to choose if they would like to close the job post when their chosen freelancer has accepted the offer, or if they want to leave it open.

 

So the job posts where someone was hired and the job post is still open, are this way because the client chose it that way.

 

Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

 


Petra R wrote:

Anna T wrote:


Petra, normally I agree with most things you point out.  But this time I have to shake my head and say no.  In the screenshot below, the green "submit proposal" button is clearly encouraging a freelancer to bid on a job that is taken. 


It says "Looking to hire 1 - Hired 1"

Pretty hard  Impossible to miss on the mobile view as per your screenshot if you just look at it. You'd have to tap on the green button blindly to not see it.

 


Anna T wrote:

  Newbies in particular do not have sufficient "modicum of attention to detail" as you or any other seasoned freelancer around here.

They'll learn to pay attention, then. Like the rest of us.

 

If someone does not pay attention to that, (especially on the mobile view where it is right "on" the apply button,  what else do they not pay attention to?)

 

At the moment, clients are asked to choose if they would like to close the job post when their chosen freelancer has accepted the offer, or if they want to leave it open.

 

So the job posts where someone was hired and the job post is still open, are this way because the client chose it that way.

 

Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

 


>They'll learn to pay attention, then. Like the rest of us.

 

It’s pretty easy to say this when you’re sitting on the other side of the fence and it’s not your time, effort or money-so, I have to consider the source on this remark and respectfully leave it there.

 

 

>Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

 

For the purpose of this particular conversation, yes. The advertised job is filled. Period. The end.

Upwork already made their money from the client and freelancers, and this is akin to selling, and accepting money for something that doesn’t currently exist. If I’m advertising a car for sale, I don’t keep the ad up because the buyer may change their mind after the sale, or, I may have another one just like it.  I would not be in business very long with a practice like that.  If a client wants to hire another freelancer they need to either repost the job or change the number of freelancers needed to 2–lets not perpetuate things at the expense of freelancers—we pay enough as it is. I have an open job in my proposal list from November 2017 and that’s just bizarre.


Anna T wrote:

>Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

 

For the purpose of this particular conversation, yes. T


Since the client is asked if they want to keep their job open and they said yes, Upwork has no right to close it. The client is the only one who decides if they want to hire more that one person and nobody else. It is up to applicants to decide if they want to send a proposal or not. Is that so hard? Man, many here seem to need babysitters to take them by the hand and help them make life and business decisions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless


Rene K wrote:

Anna T wrote:

>Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

 

For the purpose of this particular conversation, yes. T


Since the client is asked if they want to keep their job open and they said yes, Upwork has no right to close it. The client is the only one who decides if they want to hire more that one person and nobody else. It is up to applicants to decide if they want to send a proposal or not. Is that so hard? Man, many here seem to need babysitters to take them by the hand and help them make life and business decisions.

 


If a client is unable or unwilling to manage their own job posting and Upwork has to make it easy for them, who is babysitting who?

Hi Anna,

We have all had to learn how Upwork works, with its failures and successes.
Some have learned in the worst way and others, I am among them, thanks to the forums and people like Petra and Rene (and many others, I do not forget) who, for our benefit, have experience from both sides, freelancer and client.

No, Maria, it is not about learning, but what is a fair business and what is not. Probably, and just probably, the management of Upwork has to analyze why their stocks are going down and down... What if another reason for this is the way how this business is practised. There are too many unsatisfied parties with Upwork. Too many. And it will definitely sooner or later will influencer even more negatively the business. 

 

And then there is a human factor that seems not to be working in this forum. We SHOULD be helpful, we SHOULD be understanding, we SHOULD be compassionate towards those who find it unfair, who seek for help, who think that the system should be changed. We SHOULD listen to them and not offend them for what they feel and how they perceive it!


Kristine S wrote:

No, Maria, it is not about learning, but what is a fair business and what is not. Probably, and just probably, the management of Upwork has to analyze why their stocks are going down and down... What if another reason for this is the way how this business is practised. There are too many unsatisfied parties with Upwork. Too many. And it will definitely sooner or later will influencer even more negatively the business. 

 

And then there is a human factor that seems not to be working in this forum. We SHOULD be helpful, we SHOULD be understanding, we SHOULD be compassionate towards those who find it unfair, who seek for help, who think that the system should be changed. We SHOULD listen to them and not offend them for what they feel and how they perceive it!


Others have answered you, I do it also because you have addressed to me.

You say that human factor is missing?
Precisely that is what there is, and a lot. And precisely the "sarcasm" of Petra is precisely that.
As Rene says, I do not know how all these people who are here trying to help have not "exploited" more often.

So many people who arrive crying (no asking) because they have NOT read the help, they have NOT bothered to look in the forum, NOTHING
OF NOTHING! and then they get offended when what is answered does not coincide with what they expect or is answered with "sarcasm" or "boredom".

 

And by the way, do you have any fixation with Petra? There are some more of the "inhuman" around here Robot Happy

And I will repeat it again, though my comment is deleted already 3 times. 

 

I am "fixated" with bullies. As a homosexual person, I have experienced a lot of bullying and I will fight against it also in this forum. 

 

You said that it is ok to use sarcasm here. "A sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain?" why, just because of the boredom, just because of impatience? 

vladag
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Kristine,

 

I'm sorry you feel this way and I can assure you we do not tolerate any abusive language in the Community. As you can see, a number of posts have been removed and edited in this thread, and participants notified privately about the reasons for addressing their posts. 

 

I understand your frustration but please do note that our team reviews all comments posted in the forums and will address those which are in violation of our Community Guidelines. Additionally, you can flag any comment you feel might be in violation of the mentioned Guidelines and our team will review it and take action if the violation is confirmed. Lastly, I understand that some of the comments on this thread might come across as being direct but unless they violate the Community Guidelines they will be allowed to remain public.

 

Feel free to send me a private message if you have any concerns you'd like to discuss further and I'll be more than happy to provide more information.

As a reminder for all participants, please keep in mind our Community Guidelines when posting in the forums and refrain from making personal attacks, duplicate or irrelevant/off topic comments. Be respectful and courteous in your discussions and your manner. Thank you.

~ Vladimir
Upwork

Thank you for sending this. It was and is important to feel the support of Upwork team. 

 

Kind regards,

Kristine

As far as our personalities go, the U.S. is a very big place and some people have a brusque New England style and others have Southern charm while still others have a relaxed West Coast vibe. The motto in my own little community is "Be Kind."

Lately I started worring about my proposals more and more since we have to pay for it. I noticed that a lot of offers have these statistics:

  • Proposals: 20-50/50+
  • Interviewing: 0 (when it says so, sometimes it doesn't even appear)
  • Invites sent: 2,3,4, x
  • Hired: 0 or x number

I'm not talking about small numbers, at the moment I found at least 30/100+ (just because I checked only 50) in my archived proposals. I mean, it's perfectly natural for a client to hire whoever they want, but we should not be able to send a paid proposal to somebody who's going not to interview a single person picked out from a pool of 50+, especially if they just decided to hire nobod or just the ones they sent the invitation to. If it was a small number of archived proposals it wouldn't have been a problem, but for the moment my personal number is alarming.

And the worst situation is about the submitted proposals, here you can see an example:

 

  • Proposals: 20-50/50+
  • Interviewing: 0 (when it says so, sometimes it doesn't even appear)
  • Invites sent: 0 or x number
  • Hired: 0
  • Last viewed by the client: 25+ days ago

By 25+ days ago I mean that if they decided to post on May 1st, they forgot about their post on May 2nd. On a pool of 20 submitted proposal this happened to me in more than 10 occasions. Still, the clients have the right not to hire anybody, obviously, but the rate at which they don't even care about their jobs have to mean something.
I mean, I accept that I may suck at sending proposals, but here we are talking about jobs with 50+ proposals and 0 interviewed, and clients who clearly don't want to hire anybody or they just want to hire the people they decide to invite. Is this still our fault as some people suggested or is there something a little bit deep? Mind that 99% of the clients I sent proposals to are verified clients with reviews.


Edit: please notice that those jobs which are ignored by the client expire and they don't refund your connects. Like it's our fault if the client decided not to even look at our proposals.


Hi Roberto,

I think you'll have to wait to do your statistics again when ALL of us have switched to paid connections.
There are many who still have free connections and, I suppose they will be making their last attempts to "catch" something before they start paying.
Regarding what you say about clients who have not reviewed the job post many days ago, it is annoying, but I have learned not to look at the works once I have submitted the proposal. I forget so much that, when a client contacted me more than a month after I submitted a proposal, I had to quickly review the work because I did not remember anything about it Woman Happy
So, you better relax on this, and let's take some time for this new implementation to stabilize. Afterwards we will discuss what is happening (about two months?), Which we will surely have to discuss Woman Wink
Keep doing it so well!


Maria T wrote:

Hi Roberto,

I think you'll have to wait to do your statistics again when ALL of us have switched to paid connections.
There are many who still have free connections and, I suppose they will be making their last attempts to "catch" something before they start paying.
Regarding what you say about clients who have not reviewed the job post many days ago, it is annoying, but I have learned not to look at the works once I have submitted the proposal. I forget so much that, when a client contacted me more than a month after I submitted a proposal, I had to quickly review the work because I did not remember anything about it Woman Happy
So, you better relax on this, and let's take some time for this new implementation to stabilize. Afterwards we will discuss what is happening (about two months?), Which we will surely have to discuss Woman Wink
Keep doing it so well!


It's still diffcult for me to navigate this forum, it's incredibly confusional, so I do apologize in advance if you were not answering to me.

That's exactly what I did until yesterday, it all started with one of my submitted proposal sent 1 year ago. I contacted the support and they promptly answered that the job was cancelled and it expired, but the statistics 0,0,0 (it's what I like to call them) startled me. Basically I sent a proposal more than 1 year ago, the client didn't bother to answer anybody and my connects were not refunded, since they don't refund anything if the job expires. But why is it? It's not our fault (50+ proposals) if the client didn't bother to look at the proposal.

Well, I really would not review a proposal sent a year ago!
You know the rules and, from what I see in your profile, you know how to use them.
So, do not go crazy, be glad when, suddenly 2, 5 or 6 connections appear in your account. In the meantime, I'm afraid you will not be able to do anything.
Upwork does not seem to intend to change this.


Roberto S wrote:

Basically I sent a proposal more than 1 year ago, the client didn't bother to answer anybody and my connects were not refunded, since they don't refund anything if the job expires. But why is it?

Probably because Upwork wants fewer proposals sent (fewer returned connects leads to fewer proposals sent).

I have no idea if Upwork is still reading this stuff, but if I may make a suggestion since we're now paying for connects and the goal is to limit proposals.

 

Just came across a job today that I *think* I applied to before but I'm not sure. Sometimes when you stick to a certain section, a lot of jobs look similar. I think it's a repost of the same job the guy already hired another freelancer for and apparently is looking for someone else. But if I already applied, I don't want to apply again because he obviously is not interested in me for whatever reason. It would be nice to know if you've bid on a client's job before (with a reference to the job I applied to) so that I can avoid wasting connects on the same client that is obviously not interest.

 

Didn't really care before because I pay for premium, but I don't want to blow a couple dozen connects on a guy who is obviously not interested in me if he keeps posting the same job at different times.


Heaven H wrote:

Roberto S wrote:

Basically I sent a proposal more than 1 year ago, the client didn't bother to answer anybody and my connects were not refunded, since they don't refund anything if the job expires. But why is it?

Probably because Upwork wants fewer proposals sent (fewer returned connects leads to fewer proposals sent).


It was of a rhetorical question Smiley Frustrated
Still, from what I see analyzing my proposals, is that it doesn't really matter what I write in it or even if I offer to work for free. What it really matters is if the client has the initial intention of hiring somebody through proposals or through invites (or not hire at all). 
And this is something freelancers could see only after 1-2 weeks after the job offer has been made.

There are many things Upwork should be more clear about. I know that the client is always right but since we pay Upwork we are their clients too.

I'm in no position to suggest any ideas and I'm really not good at it, but how about a "Proposals read by the client: X" like a "read" message that any instant messaging platforms has out there. If I see that there are more than 50 prosals on a job and the client read only 2 in 1 day that's gonna help a lot in deciding if I should send a proposal or not.


Anna T wrote:

Rene K wrote:

Anna T wrote:

>Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

 

For the purpose of this particular conversation, yes. T


Since the client is asked if they want to keep their job open and they said yes, Upwork has no right to close it. The client is the only one who decides if they want to hire more that one person and nobody else. It is up to applicants to decide if they want to send a proposal or not. Is that so hard? Man, many here seem to need babysitters to take them by the hand and help them make life and business decisions.

 


If a client is unable or unwilling to manage their own job posting and Upwork has to make it easy for them, who is babysitting who?


The client IS managing their own job posting by deciding when and whether to close it or keep it open. It's absurd to force clients to manage their posts in a way to accommodate FLs who can't be bothered to pay attention to all of the details on the screen.

 

Frankly, anyone who can't take responsbility for attention to detail is not going to have long-term (or, probably, short-term) success as a FL and the platform is better off not trying to cater to those people.


Anna T wrote:

It’s pretty easy to say this when you’re sitting on the other side of the fence and it’s not your time, effort or money-


What "other side?" Of what fence? Which "side of the fence" are you trying to declare me to be on?

 

Do you think I've not wasted connects by not paying attention?

I've even accepted jobs without paying attention. And paid for it. I just don't bleat about suffering the consequences of my mistakes.

 

Whenever I make a mistake like that I pay more attention for a while.

 


Anna T wrote:

I have to consider the source on this remark and respectfully leave it there.

And what is that supposed to mean?

 

I have to agree with Rene. This isn't kindergarten where we need a nanny to hold our hands so we don't click on a button without thinking.

 

I do understand that all of you have passionate opinions. Come on, but keep these offences to yourself! What are all these expressions "babysitting", this and that? 

You know, Petra, let me tell you honestly, even if you might be brilliant at your job, I would never hire you after seeing how you go through this forum like a tornado, sweeping people away and out.. 

Kristine, I sincerely do understand where you're coming from. In fact when I was newly active to the forum; after reading/viewing for quite sometime prior, I posted regarding rudeness...of FL's here.

 

Needless to say, as the years have passed I understand it much better.  IMO Rene has provided you with an excellent explanation of why it occurs.

 

We're all individuals and as such have different personalities; as in the brick and mortar world. There are a few here with personalities you're referring to. However, most of them are professionals and have an abundance of knowledge to share. If people overlook the personalities, much can be learned.


Kristine S wrote:

**Edited for Community Guidelines**


In all honesty, one can do that only so much before going nuts here. Petra spends a lot of time guiding newbies and answering questions and there are so many people who just can't handle their business. They need Upwork to hold them by the hand and when they become argumentative, I can understand how regulars can be POed. Me included.

 

Sometimes I feel like telling some people to just get the **Edited for Community Guidelines** out of here if they don't like Upwork and to find another place to work. And to moan. And then, I shut my big mouth because I know that others may genuinely need some help and that people who already made all kinds of mistakes, like me, can share their experience so it helps others avoid them. But FLers who are demonstrating a total lack of business management skills and who come here to moan makes it hard not to lose one's temper.

 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless