Connects application rates -- Thoughts

[#1]

My Upwork acct has just rolled over into the new "pay to play" connects system. While I am unconvinced of Upwork's statements on why these will be "improvements", I am trying to give things a chance. While I complete some jobs, I am looking through my job stream and seeing what kind of rates (of the connects) are being applied to what kinds of jobs. 

As suspected, Im definitely seeing some ads that still are getting bombarded with 20-50 applications within a short time.  These same jobs, before the new connect system, definitely gave advantage to the freelancers in countries with a lower cost of living.  Definitely goes against the result that Upwork staff purported during its town hall and explanation of the new system.  While I am taking a more conservative stance on what jobs I apply for, I have felt more liberal in marking more ads as "Budget Too Low" when compared to how often I would do that in the old connects system.  Unfortunatley, between the available flags the "Budget Too Low" designation is the closest choice to apply to this situation.  Really, I figure that for a while, there are going to be mistakes in the connect rate that Upwork staff assesses for jobs.  It would be nice to have a more direct flag to just say "hey, this advert might be requiring an incorrect number of connects for the circumstances and description of this ad" . Again, trying to be patient here and see how things look a month from now.

Update: Here is a rundown of the types of sectors my job search and skill set fall into

• 3D Modeling (and some crossover into CAD)
• Web Design (and specifics to E-commerce websites)
• Content Management (and related, Data Entry)
•  *** Between those types of searches and concentration, I also get a bit of product copy writing, and customer service falling into my feed (even If I dont take too many of these jobs on)

One respondant to this thread was correct in that "what I am seeing" may highly depend on what Upwork job categories Im working in.

Simply put, I dont think that the analysis of "how many connects to charge" is effective.  Still seeing the same amount of low ball jobs, and the same amount of jobs submitted by those who havent verified payment. I already was disinclined to apply for those before this new system, but Ill tell you... how can they charge 4 connects for such low pay jobs, or for the jobs that have no guarantee of follow through (because payment is not verified).  If there was a "Charging Too Many Connects" flag for ads, I would use that instead.

[#2]

Wow, amazing, I just wanted to buy some connects and it turns out that they add +27% VAT!!! So, as all of my jobs are 6 connects, I will have to pay 1+ USD per one application. 

Let me kindly remind you that 20% of our income is also taken by Upwork + (guess what!) VAT

VAT +27%!!!

[#3]

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Kristine S wrote:

Wow, amazing, I just wanted to buy some connects and it turns out that they add +27% VAT!!! So, as all of my jobs are 6 connects, I will have to pay 1+ USD per one application. 

Let me kindly remind you that 20% of our income is also taken by Upwork + (guess what!) VAT

VAT +27%!!!

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So we've reached the point of holding Upwork responsible for international tax laws?

[#4]

Haha, Tiffany as always have a very constructive comment. I guess you don't know such thing as fair practice when businesses provide the final price, right?
How come that PPH for example do not use the same practice?

[#5]

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Kristine S wrote:
Haha, Tiffany as always have a very constructive comment. I guess you don't know such thing as fair practice when businesses provide the final price, right?
How come that PPH for example do not use the same practice?

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It would be difficult for Upwork to do that, since different countries pay different amounts (I pay 20% here in the UK), and some pay none at all.

[#6]

Kristine, VAT is an EU thingie.

Hungary wanted to be in EU. Now you goltta pay the VAT 🙂

But hey, you have Europian Union to back you up. 🙂

[#7]

The Tiffany is here to help. 🙂

[#8]

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Kristine S wrote:
Haha, Tiffany as always have a very constructive comment. I guess you don't know such thing as fair practice when businesses provide the final price, right?
How come that PPH for example do not use the same practice?

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PPH has a completely different MO. It is a very much smaller, private limited company, based in UK with Greek interests and has had its ups and downs like all job sites. It doesn't compare with Upwork in terms of size (or income). 

I agree that all these extra pennies-in-the slot to make extra cash could have been better thought out. But when we signed up we agreed to Upwork's conditions, and  have chosen to remain despite not agreeing with the changes. We are also free to leave.  

[#9]

Very helpful, Nichola! As we have agreed to Upwork's terms, we have to accept with the smile on our faces everything that they do and will do in the future, correct? Thank you also for the suggestion to leave, this is even more helpful and constructive!

[#10]

xD

[#11]

I am seeing a number of projects which require too many connects for the type of work being asked for.

There are some projects where the client clearly doesn't know how long the work will take, so they opt for 'less than a month', when really we're talking about hours of work.

These jobs are requiring 6 connects to submit a proposal for - it's just not worth it given the low response rates from clients on Upwork.

Something is really wrong with Upwork's estimation of the number of connects it should take to submit a proposal. I think it needs revising to err on the side of caution until you have enough data for some Deep Learning algorithm to make better guesses than are being made now.

How do you do that? You need human data going into your DL / ML algorithms.

How do you do that? You give us frelancers several 'wildcards' per month, where we can override the standard connects policy and to submit proposals using a lower number of connects if we choose to use a 'wildcard'.

Then your machine learning algorithm has some extra data to look into where the humans submitting the bids thought the policy was wrong.

Please consider implementing such a wildcard system, and in addition please consider topping up the freelancer's available monthly wildcards with each successful bid they win.

[#12]

Anthony,

The main reason Upwork gave for the increase in the number of connects was to reduce the number of proposals clients get per job. Upwork may not want to change the current algorithm if that primary goal is being achieved. 

Considering how  bad so many clients are at guessing how much time and effort their jobs will actually require, I don't think any algorithm could be developed for all the types of work done by freelancers here. It's a good thing accuracy and relevance weren't the primary goals.

[#13]

I see what you're saying Will, but I had noted somewhere that Upwork had said they'll keep an eye on whether the amount of connects required to bid for projects is looking accurate or not.

My early view; it's not. I'm not sure what kind of algorithm they are using for this, if there is any Machine Learning behind it or not, but it seems to me there really isn't enough data behind it currently.

If they are weighing the client's estimation of time heavily, then very often it's going to be way, way out. I think they need some ML around the tags and job descriptions as much as anything else; and like all good Machine Learning algorithms, it needs human-trained data; hence my suggestion of a limited wildcard system, which would be generating data from freelancers where they judge the number of proposals to be inaccurate, as well as data where it is not (e.g. where they still choose to bid when they've run out of wildcards).

At present they're only generating data from freelancers where they will assume the freelancer agrees with the number of connects required; but never where they disagree (for there is no such facility).

That's a blind-spot in the data / algorithm that could be filled, whilst also adding a nice dose of fairness into an 'imperfect' system.

[#14]

Hi, Anthony.

Upwork has complete records of all the historical job listings, unsuccessful bids, successful bids, eventual project value, etc. data that would be necessary to set up a "machine learning"-based algorithm that would be able to create connects requirements that are consistent and reflect a direct  relationship between a job's work required, it's eventual value to the freelancer and the connects required to post a proposal for that same job..

But if Upwork didn't do the work to get that algorithm built before introducing this system, I don't think there's any reason to believe Upwork will spend the time and money required to significantly improve the existing algorithm in the foreseeable future.

[#15]

I have to agree here.  When I look at how a company will change things, the WAY IT IS DONE is far more telling into the changes they are making and where the motivation comes from.  The changes they made were a) made on speculation b) have questionable claims about them talking to freelancers and clients alike to get useful feedback.

I definitely work in a few different sectors (menitoned in my original post) and I definitely see experiences mirrored here that suggest that, even if thier idea is a good one...they did not give room for its full potential simply because these changes were not applied in any way related to putting people on equal footing (esp in the way that these changes only effect the freelancers)

[#16]

Mary - Has Upwork ever said or implied that they have wanted to put people on an equal footing?

[#17]

I dont know if they have implied anything one way or another.  I know Upwork has institutded changes before (and was once known under a different company name). Not sure if anything was implied (about equality) then.

[#18]

The segue of U. being 'fair' has been discussed time and time again.  And FLer responses are always the same.  U. is not a philanthropic organization or a charitable NGO. U. is a business. U's business is to help buyers and FLers connect - so U can make money.

Stop with the 'poor me; this isn't fair' attitude.  Do you run your business on that basis?

[#19]

Wendy,

Upwork is rightly very insistent that freelancers not bill clients for work not performed on hourly jobs, so clients don't have to pay for something they haven't received.

If, as others here have claimed, Upwork knowlingly allowing freelancers to waste no-longer-free connects applying to jobs that clients have not specifically told Upwork they want to hire more freelancers for is not a fair approach.

If this is happening, at the very least Upwork could default to closing a job to new freelancer proposals after a freelancer has been hired, allowing the client to actively confirm that they want to hire more freelancers in the near term for the same project if they want to keep receiving proposals.

And the project's Upwork page should clearly note when at least one freelancer has already been hired, so freelancers are aware of the hiring situation on that project before submitting what can, under the current process, be time, effort and money wasted on a useless proposal.

[#20]

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Will L wrote: The project's Upwork page should clearly note when at least one freelancer has already been hired, so freelancers are aware of the hiring situation on that project before submitting what can, under the current process, be time, effort and money wasted on a useless proposal.

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Huh? It does say that.

It says on the job post whether someone has been hired or not, so freelancers are free to look at that and decide accordingly.

[#21]

Petra,

The type of projects I apply to do not require more than one freelancer, and I am not as steeped in every element of Upworks processes as you are.

I have not seen such a notation on any project I have ever applied to, but it is useful to know such a notation can exist.

But that really has nothing to do with whether Upwork should make more effort to ensure freelancers are not applying to jobs on which no ffeelancer has any chance of being hired.

If you don't think that is happening under the current system, please, do tell. 

[#22]

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Will L wrote:

I have not seen such a notation on any project I have ever applied to, but it is useful to know such a notation can exist.

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You demanded that job posts "clearly note when at least one freelancer has already been hired"

Job posts already do that.

It doesn't require any special knowledge or talent to see it, just a modicum of attention to detail.

[#23]

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Petra R wrote:

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Will L wrote:

I have not seen such a notation on any project I have ever applied to, but it is useful to know such a notation can exist.

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You demanded that job posts "clearly note when at least one freelancer has already been hired"

Job posts already do that.

It doesn't require any special knowledge or talent to see it, just a modicum of attention to detail.

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Petra, normally I agree with most things you point out.  But this time I have to shake my head and say no.  In the screenshot below, the green "submit proposal" button is clearly encouraging a freelancer to bid on a job that is taken.  Newbies in particular do not have sufficient "modicum of attention to detail" as you or any other seasoned freelancer around here.  This is deceiving and clearly taking money and time away from an unsuspecting freelancer no matter how you look at it.  This job should be closed.

[#24]

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Anna T wrote:

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Petra, normally I agree with most things you point out.  But this time I have to shake my head and say no.  In the screenshot below, the green "submit proposal" button is clearly encouraging a freelancer to bid on a job that is taken. 

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It says "Looking to hire 1 - Hired 1"

Pretty hard  Impossible to miss on the mobile view as per your screenshot if you just look at it. You'd have to tap on the green button blindly to not see it.

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Anna T wrote:

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  Newbies in particular do not have sufficient "modicum of attention to detail" as you or any other seasoned freelancer around here.

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They'll learn to pay attention, then. Like the rest of us.

If someone does not pay attention to that, (especially on the mobile view where it is right "on" the apply button,  what else do they not pay attention to?)

At the moment, clients are asked to choose if they would like to close the job post when their chosen freelancer has accepted the offer, or if they want to leave it open.

So the job posts where someone was hired and the job post is still open, are this way because the client chose it that way.

Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

[#25]

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Petra R wrote:

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Anna T wrote:

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Petra, normally I agree with most things you point out.  But this time I have to shake my head and say no.  In the screenshot below, the green "submit proposal" button is clearly encouraging a freelancer to bid on a job that is taken. 

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It says "Looking to hire 1 - Hired 1"

Pretty hard  Impossible to miss on the mobile view as per your screenshot if you just look at it. You'd have to tap on the green button blindly to not see it.

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Anna T wrote:

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  Newbies in particular do not have sufficient "modicum of attention to detail" as you or any other seasoned freelancer around here.

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They'll learn to pay attention, then. Like the rest of us.

If someone does not pay attention to that, (especially on the mobile view where it is right "on" the apply button,  what else do they not pay attention to?)

At the moment, clients are asked to choose if they would like to close the job post when their chosen freelancer has accepted the offer, or if they want to leave it open.

So the job posts where someone was hired and the job post is still open, are this way because the client chose it that way.

Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

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>They'll learn to pay attention, then. Like the rest of us.

It’s pretty easy to say this when you’re sitting on the other side of the fence and it’s not your time, effort or money-so, I have to consider the source on this remark and respectfully leave it there.

>Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

For the purpose of this particular conversation, yes. The advertised job is filled. Period. The end.

Upwork already made their money from the client and freelancers, and this is akin to selling, and accepting money for something that doesn’t currently exist. If I’m advertising a car for sale, I don’t keep the ad up because the buyer may change their mind after the sale, or, I may have another one just like it.  I would not be in business very long with a practice like that.  If a client wants to hire another freelancer they need to either repost the job or change the number of freelancers needed to 2–lets not perpetuate things at the expense of freelancers—we pay enough as it is. I have an open job in my proposal list from November 2017 and that’s just bizarre.

[#26]

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Anna T wrote:

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>Are you saying clients must not be allowed to leave their job posts open if they hire someone even if they want to?

For the purpose of this particular conversation, yes. T

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Since the client is asked if they want to keep their job open and they said yes, Upwork has no right to close it. The client is the only one who decides if they want to hire more that one person and nobody else. It is up to applicants to decide if they want to send a proposal or not. Is that so hard? Man, many here seem to need babysitters to take them by the hand and help them make life and business decisions.