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thebookdoc
Community Member

Connects get out of hand.

I was disappointed when Upwork decided they had to milk me even more money for applying to jobs, and yet also still not requiring clients to respond. I can sometimes take 20 minutes or half an hour to craft a proper proposal depending on the client description and needs...And most of the time there is no response. So now, not only am I paying 30 cents for the privilege of applying for every 2 connect job (and paying VAT which I don't technically owe), but I noticed a new thing. Suddenly jobs cost more than 2 connects to apply for. In 2.5 years working through Upwork EVERY job I applied for was 2 connects. I never saw a job for 1 connect, which they should be if they are $10 jobs. But just this week I saw 3 jobs that I might apply for that were 6 connects, and I applied for none of them. That is, the application would cost 90 cents PLUS the hourly wage I was losing spending 20 minutes to apply. In all, and at my standard fee, that means I am chucking about $14 just to apply for a job that I have no idea if the client will even read. 

While Upwork has helped me adjust my life situation to some extent, I am growing more and more dissatisfied with the penny-pinching feel. If I am just one freelancer who has earned them at least $10,000 over the past few years in fees, why are they making it more costly for me to use their service rather than less?

Obviously, a dollar to apply for a job is nothing. $14 is a bit riskier, and really verging on stupid. Why are clients not REQUIRED to respond? If they don't or if they don't even read an application, why are those connects not returned? The freelancer's effort is not being respected at all.

I'd be interested in the response of other people both pro and con the new "cost per application" as I don't see how it benefits anyone involved. And the hike in 'connect' rates is just awful. If I put in an application a day, each month that will cost me about $420. That is it subtracts from my working hours and costs me in connects. 

Am I seriously the only one who looks at this as getting out of control?


56 REPLIES 56
petra_r
Community Member


Richard L wrote:


Obviously, a dollar to apply for a job is nothing. $14 is a bit riskier, and really verging on stupid.
 If I put in an application a day, each month that will cost me about $420. That is it subtracts from my working hours and costs me in connects.


Connects cost $ 0.15 each, how do you arrive at $ 14 to apply for a contract, let alone $ 420 a month?

 

If you were to put in one application a day for 30 days, even if all the jobs were at 6 connects, that comes to $ 27 a month...

 

One of us is missing something

He add his hour rate for time he need to create proporsal


Grigoriy F wrote:

He add his hour rate for time he need to create proporsal


Ah ok. My bad, I missed that part of the calculation, even though he did make it clear. Sorry Richard.

 

This is a very dismissive response to Richard L. $27 a month is nothing to sneeze at; you often have to send out multiple proposals to get one job. $14 for one job isn't unusual: that's just 10-15 proposals which is *not* at all unusual for high-end freelancer.  


Catharine G wrote:

This is a very dismissive response to Richard L. $27 a month is nothing to sneeze at; you often have to send out multiple proposals to get one job. $14 for one job isn't unusual: that's just 10-15 proposals which is *not* at all unusual for high-end freelancer.  


For someone who claims to have paid more than $10,000 in Upwork fees, $27/month should be "something to sneeze at." Someone who is earning more than $100,000 here and can't afford to pay/thinks it's unreasonable to pay a little over $300/year to keep that rolling along is doing something very wrong.

I'm wondering about your math skills. $10,000 reflects VAT and 20% of my
earnings and comes to about 25% of what I make. $40,000 over two years
is below the poverty level in the US.


Richard L wrote:
I'm wondering about your math skills. $10,000 reflects VAT and 20% of my
earnings and comes to about 25% of what I make. $40,000 over two years
is below the poverty level in the US.

Sorry, Richard. I wasn't aware that you were working exclusively on tiny jobs, nor that you were for some reason counting VAT as money Upwork had earned from you.

 

My net fees to Upwork are about 9.5%, which is similar to that paid by many of my colleagues.Since you seemed to be positioning yourself as a high earner that Upwork should value more, I made some faulty assumptions. (A mistake just as bad from my end, as I taught logic and critical reasoning for as many years as I did math.)

I mentioned that I am wasting time that I could otherwise be
working...and I do have work. Instead of working I am applying for work,
and that comes off the ledger.


Richard L wrote:
I mentioned that I am wasting time that I could otherwise be
working...

You did indeed and I missed it.

It's past wine o'clock 😉

 

Having experimented with different proposal formats, I find that a very short and to the point one that still addresses the client individually works best for me, so I would not spend 20 minutes on a proposal as that would cost $ 15 worth of my time.

 

I only spend any significant amount of time on proposals for jobs potentially worth tens of thousands.

 


Richard L wrote:
I mentioned that I am wasting time that I could otherwise be
working...and I do have work. Instead of working I am applying for work,
and that comes off the ledger.

Isn't that just a bad business decision on your part, though? If you're taking time away from paying work you already have to make a crazy huge number of bids on Upwork every month...why?

This is pretty close to being the most acidic group of people I've ever had discussions with. I have to have work week to week. My jobs don't always last that long. I have to apply for new ones. If you have good luck and get one in ten and you put 20 minutes in on each application, that's a significant amount of time put in to get a job. 

Perhaps you are special and you work the system better than I do. Kudos. There were weeks where I spent all 40 or 50 hours just applying. Things are much better now. 

Just when did I put the bee in your bonnet?


Richard L wrote:

 

Just when did I put the bee in your bonnet?


I don't know whether this is a real question or not, but if you did actually want an answer...I really, really hate when more experienced freelancers feed the mindset that finding someone to blame/trying to fix the way someone else (including Upwork) does business is the way to go when freelancing isn't going your way. After decades of mentoring new and newish freelancers, I know that the single biggest obstacle many face is looking outward for reasons they're failing rather than focusing on the things they can control. That seems to be a very popular hobby here in the Upwork forums (and many other freelancing forums), and feeding that mindset is super-destructive to people who are relatively inexperienced but honestly working to build their businesses.

I'm not failing, and I certainly wasn't blaming my level of success on
the cost of connects. I'm doing as well as ever on Upwork -- or somewhat
better than that. You must be enjoying a lot of long-term jobs.
Congratulations. The past two years have been a learning experience
where I found that trusting a client when they pushed me for hours was
not always the best move because it edged out other opportunities. Long
term work can suddenly come to an end when the client gets what they
need or if their business changes, and I found out how to suffer by
putting my eggs in one basket. I don't do it anymore.

Again, I don't see the point of the 15 cents per connect or the reason
why suddenly 'preferred jobs' (magical distinction not based on a
client's past performance and reliability) require up to 6 of them. It
isn't the 15 cents or the dollar. And that same 15 cents isn't going to
stop lower-rate workers from under-bidding me either. Honestly, if they
want to cut the riff-raff, make the monthly fee required. I'd have
bought that better than the 15-cent needling.

The thing that I see as being popular on these forums is the nasty
attacks for no reason. So, I will just depart assuming it is fine with
you that Upwork makes policy changes that help no one, including
themselves. Go own that idea. It is helping no one to attack people who
bring up topics. If that is your perspective, you might want to
re-evaluate it.


Tiffany S wrote:

Richard L wrote:

 

Just when did I put the bee in your bonnet?


I don't know whether this is a real question or not, but if you did actually want an answer...I really, really hate when more experienced freelancers feed the mindset that finding someone to blame/trying to fix the way someone else (including Upwork) does business is the way to go when freelancing isn't going your way. After decades of mentoring new and newish freelancers, I know that the single biggest obstacle many face is looking outward for reasons they're failing rather than focusing on the things they can control. That seems to be a very popular hobby here in the Upwork forums (and many other freelancing forums), and feeding that mindset is super-destructive to people who are relatively inexperienced but honestly working to build their businesses.


It might be though that some are unhelpable.  He is not seeing the good advice he is taking everything as a personal attack.  What can you do?

Mark,

I have, honestly, failed to see the "good advice" and my reading comprehension is pretty good. Perhaps you can point it out?

It may have been that I didn't state my position clearly in the original post, and the point was that the 15 cent charge is like a gnat flying around my head. It isn't going to solve any problems for anyone. While I can see the claim that jobs with more potential value will cost more connects could be a good thing (I do not remember this being announced in the community), I do not see what 15 cents is accomplishing.

One of those 'very special' 6-connect jobs that I saw was from a client with no previous hires and apparently no Upwork experience with a job description that said "I might need an editor in the future." This suggests that the assignment of connects is either arbitrary or based on another magical realism.

Using connects to help define more valuable jobs is a great idea. I wouldn't have minded throwing all my connects for a month at some of the jobs I have currently (we used to get 50 or 60?). But, if a client with no Upwork experience checks a box that says "expert" and another that says "long term" and has no track record on the site with a job description that says just about nothing ... what is the point of the connects policy that makes that job exclusive? Is the difference between 15 cents and $1 really going to weed out anyone who either lacks qualifications or success as a freelancer? In my experience, a lot of Upwork 'clients' never hire at all if they have not previously. The difference between spending 20-30 minutes of my time applying and an additional 15 cents or $1 is pretty much totally negligible.

The above is just one example. I've worked for companies in the past year who have apparently spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on upwork, and those companies would seem to be the ones whose job offers should demand more respect and more connects (well, so long as the pay scale matches). On the other hand, I could post a job right now, say it was long term, that I needed an expert, and post a budget of $5 with the intent of never paying even a dime of that after collecting 100% of the work and it might still be 'preferred' at least according to the criteria I received from tech support.

There are so many ways the connects system could be improved, and I'm not sure this is it. For example, reward successful freelancers with connects so they don't have gnats. That is, if I have proven the ability to successfully complete contracts and make money for Upwork while keeping clients happy, maybe that is worth encouraging? If jobs are really going to be exclusive, shouldn't they require a certain level of proven performance to apply for rather than just requiring paying for connects? Maybe proven successes and earnings could be rewarded with special vouchers that allow application to special jobs.

If the good advice is "Stop being cheap, shut up and pay for the connects, and make more money" that isn't really advice, is it. The expense, as I have said repeatedly at this point, isn't the 15 cents. To me it appears to be squeezing more out of the lemon rather than an attempt to improve anything.

" After decades of mentoring new and newish freelancers..." Guess I missed the 'mentoring' and 'advice' parts of your posts.


Richard L wrote:



Perhaps you are special and you work the system better than I do. Kudos. There were weeks where I spent all 40 or 50 hours just applying. Things are much better now. 


Seems like you're intentionally missing the point. I'm NOT special and I work the system better than you. I work part-time through Upwork, spend no more than an hour a week cultivating new business, and make more than 4x what you do through the site (which is only a portion of my income). And NONE of that is because I'm "special"--it's because I know how to manage the business aspects of my business. That's what I'm trying to convey to other people who would like to also make a good living freelancing. Some take it to heart, learn, and thrive.

calicocopy
Community Member

I couldn't have said it better. I earned about $7000 in just a few months as a newbie on Upwork. I found wonderful big jobs at good rates. However, I'm at the upper end on fees and I need to submit a lot of proposals to get one job. Since Upwork went to the new system, I keep seeing more bad jobs and more competition for the better jobs. I haven't had a nibble in ages.

 

I actually got pulled off the public view because Upwork said I hadn't been working. Whoever reviewed my account said I had good proposals and great reviews. She suggested a few minor changes to my profile, and gave me another 30 days of public view, but I think it goes deeper.

 

Upwork has now begun to attract people who compete with Fiverr, both as clients and freelancers ... super-cheap. Many of the better freelancers are leaving (and I probably will too at some point) which means clients are not getting good people; I actually tried to hire some people for design and was not impressed with the people who replied. So it's a vicious circle: the better clients give up and leave. The 20% hit was always a problem; now add $5-10 per job because each application costs almost $1 and you sometimes have to apply to 5-10 jobs to get hired. 


Those who joined earlier had a chance to build relationships and get longer- term options. Another few months and I would have too. This totally sucks. Upwork was a terrific opportunity when I joined last February. 

jurelampe
Community Member

Richard, we share the same thoughts, except that I am more worried about unresponsive clients than the connects price: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/It-is-not-about-connects-price-but-about-time-invested-s...

Jure,

Unresponsive clients is also a huge problem because somehow freelancers get dinged for it through the mysterious "success score" algorithm. I've put in that complaint several times only to see it marked as "resolved." I end up having to hound clients for reviews -- which is something Upwork should enforce on their end. Instead, I appear like a nag.

Yeah, and I'm not sure how many times clients just disappear. It gets better the more I charge, but I wonder when I'm going to price myself out.


Richard L wrote:

Unresponsive clients is also a huge problem because somehow freelancers get dinged for it through the mysterious "success score" algorithm.


No, they are not. Urban legend.

 


Richard L wrote:

 I end up having to hound clients for reviews --


You don't have to do that at all. As long as some money was at some point paid, just close the contrat if the client goes awol. As long as you don't have an insane percentage of "no feedback" clients, it has **NO** effect on your JSS in any way, shape or form. I just saw a profile of a freelancer with 85% of no feedback contracts and 100% JSS. I

Petra,

Then go tell the technical support person who told me that I had too many clients with no feedback and it was hurting my score that you are right and she was not.

If you know the JSS algorithm, please make it public, because Upwork won't. You are making stuff up!


Richard L wrote:

Petra,

Then go tell the technical support person who told me that I had too many clients with no feedback and it was hurting my score that you are right and she was not.

If you know the JSS algorithm, please make it public, because Upwork won't. You are making stuff up!


Petra does not "mak[e] stuff up." She is more knowledgeable about the workings of Upwork than many Upwork employees. It is repeatedly reported here that frontline CSS gets things wrong, misunderstands their canned answers, and even, yes, makes stuff up.

There's not that much to know about the JSS algorithm. It rewards good work as measured by customer satisfaction. It's all but a direct function of the My Stats "Clients Who Would Recommend" metric.

"Who the clients recommend" is totally false.  Interesting that when I
followed the advice of the technical support person who you claim may
not know what they are talking about, my score rose back up to where I'd
expect it to be.

The algorithm is not simple. If it were it would be easy to predict. It
isn't.


Richard L wrote:
"Who the clients recommend" is totally false. 

I point you to the one simple and useful metric Upwork provides as a measure of our success, as reported by clients. But it's "false." Well, OK, then. As you wish.
Interesting that when I
followed the advice of the technical support person who you claim may
not know what they are talking about, my score rose back up to where I'd
expect it to be.

Correlation is a necessary but not sufficient condition for causation.

The algorithm is not simple. If it were it would be easy to predict. It
isn't.

The JSS algorithm, as it's been variously described by Upwork, is not simple. "Simplicity" is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for its being fairly easy to predict—which it is.

"I point you to the one simple and useful metric Upwork provides as a
measure of our success, as reported by clients. But it's "false." "

Yes, false. Because if it were true, the two would be equal, and they
are not.

Douglas,

The claim made was that the success score matched one other parameter -- whether the client would recommend you or not. I said it wasn't true and that there were various things included in calculating the algorithm and Upwork was intentionally keeping the factors 'secret.' There is no place where I found that the algorithm is described, and live support refused to.

You arguing my point, not against me. And why everyone on this forum seems to feel flogging all other opinions is chichi is really odd if this is truly a progressive and friendly community.


Richard L wrote:

Douglas,

The claim made was that the success score matched one other parameter -- whether the client would recommend you or not. I said it wasn't true and that there were various things included in calculating the algorithm and Upwork was intentionally keeping the factors 'secret.' There is no place where I found that the algorithm is described, and live support refused to.

You arguing my point, not against me. And why everyone on this forum seems to feel flogging all other opinions is chichi is really odd if this is truly a progressive and friendly community.


Richard,

The only person I have ever heard make the claim of identity between Clients Who Would Recommend and JSS is you. The complicated JSS is roughly predictable from and has a correspondence with Clients Who Would Recommend. That has been stated many times in many threads. That is not identity.

You didn't say the identity was false—in fact you subsequently asserted it out of the blue—you said the Clients Who Would Recommend—the one piece of hard, client-driven data you seem to be seeking—is false. When a person claims data are false, or a fact is false, that pretty much ends the conversation.

I'm not arguing anything. I, like others, am trying to point out facts, and discrete (and patterned) bits of information that Upwork has published over the years, and practices that it has modified or clarified over the years. That's not an argument. It's information. If you choose to reject it all, and take something an underpaid, undertrained, underinformed phone or chat worker told you as gospel, and take disagreement and correction as personal attack, so be it.

It would be nice, though, if you stopped putting words in other people's mouths, and misquoting even yourself.

"The only person I have ever heard make the claim of identity between Clients Who Would Recommend and JSS is you. "

So your job success score correlates exactly with the percent who would recommend? THAT is what someone claimed, and I can tell you for a fact that isn't true.

"That is not identity."

What does that mean?

"You didn't say the identity was false"

I have seriously no idea what you are talking about at this point.

"you said the Clients Who Would Recommend—the one piece of hard, client-driven data you seem to be seeking—is false."

No. What I said was that JSS and clients who would recommend are clearly not a one-to-one correlation. Upwork says as much. Whomever stated that they were a one-to-one correlation was making a false statement.

"When a person claims data are false, or a fact is false, that pretty much ends the conversation."

Well...For argument's sake, if I say the moon has a chilling effect and moonlight cools water and you say "that's not right!" your sentence suggests the conversation is over. Exactly what was the outcome there? If you can just declare that I'm wrong without either having context or quoting correctly, it seems like having the ability to say "nuh-uh!" and walking away makes you correct.

"I'm not arguing anything."

Perhaps we need a definition of 'argument' like **Edited for Community Guidelines**

"If you choose to reject it all, and take something an underpaid, undertrained, underinformed phone or chat worker told you as gospel, and take disagreement and correction as personal attack, so be it."

I'm not sure what you are talking about at this point as you yourself typed words very similar to "It [the calculation] is not simple."

"It would be nice, though, if you stopped putting words in other people's mouths, and misquoting even yourself."

Um...I'm pretty sure you aren't reading your own posts before clicking 'send'.

 


Richard L wrote:


No. What I said was that JSS and clients who would recommend are clearly not a one-to-one correlation. Upwork says as much. Whomever stated that they were a one-to-one correlation was making a false statement.


I did not see anyone claim there was a one-to-one correlation. I did see you claim the private feedback JSS (aka "Clients who would recommend") was "false," which is what Michael (Douglas) was talking about.

 

clients recommend.png

 

The JSS is the best of your 6, 12 or 24-month windows, includes bonuses for long term and repeat clients and excludes outcomes from clients who have a history of excessively poor outcomes or suspended clients, whereas the private feedback JSS (aka "Clients who would recommend") includes all responses from all clients who left such private feedback over the lifetime of your profile.

 

Arguably, the private feedback JSS (aka "Clients who would recommend") gives a far more honest picture of what a freelancer's clients really thought of their experience, whereas the JSS, being the best of 3 windows and "tidied up" version, is the sanitized advertising version.

 

If you take a look at the difference between your JSS and your private feedback JSS (aka "Clients who would recommend") on your "My Stats Page" you'll see what I mean.

 

Wow...nice way to yank that out of context. Acronyms appear to be the problem. My conjecture was that JSS != CSS.  I would imagine that CSS influences both JSS and "Clients who would recommend you"

I was replying to "As long as you don't have an insane percentage of "no feedback" clients, it has **NO** effect on your JSS in any way, shape or form. I just saw a profile of a freelancer with 85% of no feedback contracts and 100% JSS." 

This does not match what I was told — or what I experienced.

Michael said: " It's [JSS] all but a direct function of the My Stats "Clients Who Would Recommend" metric."

That is what I was claiming was false. JSS is not only determined by CSS. I don't know at all how I could possibly evaluate the CSS which is not available/hidden. I never said the CSS was a fake number. I'm sure it is a pretty straight average calculation. Whether it is over-all or within a time window (as JSS *is*) I'd have no idea. Neither would you or Michael as that information is not posted anywhere and support will not provide it.

This is so far off topic with all the nit-picking... It really is hardly worth discussing. Do you like to correct people's typos too? What's the point?

Mine was that the current connects 'system' is not good.





Douglas Michael M wrote:

Richard L wrote:

Petra,

Then go tell the technical support person who told me that I had too many clients with no feedback and it was hurting my score that you are right and she was not.

If you know the JSS algorithm, please make it public, because Upwork won't. You are making stuff up!


Petra does not "mak[e] stuff up." She is more knowledgeable about the workings of Upwork than many Upwork employees.



CSS has access to more data than Petra.

As one of the perks of being top rated, CSS might jump in to give "personalised profile feedback", including on the FL's JSS. (paraphrase mine).

 

Whatever they say in such personalised JSS feedback supersedes whatever general comments another freelancer may make right off the bat, without even seeing the profile of the FL in question.

Abinadab, it is absolutely essential for Upwork success to understand just how often CS gives out blatantly false information, often to the serious detriment of the freelancer. One incident I specifically recall involved the Upwork CS rep repeatedly assuring a freelancer that he should close a fixed price contract and then would be able to dispute. The freelancer had read forum posts from experienced freelancers like Petra and thought that wasn't right and questioned and verified repeatedly, but the CS rep insisted that was the way to go. So, the freelancer did as instructed and the $2,000 in escrow was instantly returned to the client, as everyone except the CS rep knew it would be.

 

This sort of thing happens a lot. Some CS reps seem to guess. Others cut and paste answers to the wrong questions. Some seem to have a bit of a language barrier. They routinely provide dangerously false information, and experienced freelancers--Petra more than any of us--often spend time helping freelancers do what they can do recover from the damage caused by this misinformation.


Tiffany S wrote:

Abinadab, it is absolutely essential for Upwork success to understand just how often CS gives out blatantly false information, often to the serious detriment of the freelancer. One incident I specifically recall involved the Upwork CS rep repeatedly assuring a freelancer that he should close a fixed price contract and then would be able to dispute. The freelancer had read forum posts from experienced freelancers like Petra and thought that wasn't right and questioned and verified repeatedly, but the CS rep insisted that was the way to go. So, the freelancer did as instructed and the $2,000 in escrow was instantly returned to the client, as everyone except the CS rep knew it would be.

 

This sort of thing happens a lot. Some CS reps seem to guess. Others cut and paste answers to the wrong questions. Some seem to have a bit of a language barrier. They routinely provide dangerously false information, and experienced freelancers--Petra more than any of us--often spend time helping freelancers do what they can do recover from the damage caused by this misinformation.


I appreciate your comments, Tiffany.

However, I still maintain that as a general rule, when providing personalised profile feedback (including but not limited to JSS), to Top Rated freelancers, Technical support has access to more data than any freelancer could lay their hands on.

 

The scenario you mentioned, though true, is an outlier, an exception rather than the norm.

I believe that over time they would have hired Support staff who speak better English and/or trained the existing ones more. And/or used only the Higher-end support staff (yes, there's that strata) when giving such personalised profile feedback to the most important crop of freelancers.

 


Abinadab A wrote:

 

The scenario you mentioned, though true, is an outlier, an exception rather than the norm.

 


How do you know? What data do you have about the accuracy of information freelancers have received from CS?

emonuzzamanmd
Community Member

I think the new connect system is bad at all. To me, it's like a wall between the unprofessional freelancers and upwork. Before the number of proposals crossed 50+ within a few minutes now it has been decreased. But the new policy for clients is not good at all (personally to me). Clients are leaving. I think upwork should re-think about it. 

 

A joke: Freelancers don't need to spend connects to accept invitations. Clients need to subscribe to membership plan to send invitations.


Md E wrote:

 But the new policy for clients is not good at all (personally to me). Clients are leaving.


Exactly.

All those people up in arms over the fact that Upwork charge for connects are missing the real threat to their freelancing business, which is the client pans and charges for them, which are chasing clients away.

Successful freelancers won't suffer from spending a few Dollars on connects, they WILL suffer from clients abandoning the site.

 

dzadza
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Md E wrote:

 But the new policy for clients is not good at all (personally to me). Clients are leaving.


Exactly.

All those people up in arms over the fact that Upwork charge for connects are missing the real threat to their freelancing business, which is the client pans and charges for them, which are chasing clients away.

Successful freelancers won't suffer from spending a few Dollars on connects, they WILL suffer from clients abandoning the site.

 


I don't mind paying for connects (I was forced here  from Elance, and that was a norm there) - however, I still see 50 proposals on each job (except for the super crappy ones and clients with unverified payment), around 95% of the jobs end up with no interviews (let alone hires).
And I know I need to invest in my freelance business - as a graphic designer, I spend a few hundred bucks on software  and  font licensing each month).

What I do mind, though, is wasting money - and at the moment, I think that paying premium membership or purchasing connects  is money wasted...

Petra,

Aren't you the one who just said Upwork isn't making interest on the money they hold? Yet they hold the freelancers over a fire for 30 to 90 cents per application? I'd like proof that they are not holding money to get interest on it and how you know that for a fact.

I was lucky to get a few good clients right before the policy change, but this mucking around is certainly NOT improving the situation for freelancers or clients.

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