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Continual Decline in Rates for Voice Work?

renata101
Community Guru
Renata S Member Since: Jun 10, 2014
11 of 25

@Rene K wrote:

 Also, what are those No feedback given jobs on your profile? Such a pattern can really hit your JSS, you need to pay attention to no having too much of those, as far as possible.


 I'm commenting on this separately because I think it's a separate issue. I'd prefer not to comment on it at all because I know it's a hairball issue, but this is a great example of something people were discussing on another thread.

I really wish UpWork would completely trash the no comment = bad feedback thing. It's not something that freelancers are able to control all of the time. And since none of the powers that be ever says x number of bad feedbacks = bad, you're left on your own to try to intepret this from your tea leaves. 

So many people in a variety of jobs deal with people who are in a rush and come and go and don't leave feedback. The same thing with open contracts. In certain jobs, I think this type of behavior is much more common (graphic design, editing, sound work, proofreading, etc.) than it is in others. So you're left in the looping vortex of "Do I end this contract with no feedback and have it negatively affect my JSS?" or "Do I leave the contract open and have it negatively impact my JSS?" 

versailles
Community Guru
Rene K Member Since: Jul 10, 2014
12 of 25

@Renata S wrote:

I really wish UpWork would completely trash the no comment = bad feedback thing. 


 

It's not that easy. Clients leaving without feedback is not something a freelancer has control over, but it doesn't happen that much: I cannot be a statistical oddity, I have feedback on almost all my gigs (sometimes it requires to ping the buyer).

 

A lot of jobs without feedback in a row, however, may be an indicator of something going wrong. If the majority of clients would leave without feedback, almost everybody would experience this. Since it is not the case, I guess that Upwork saw it as an issue.

 

What follows is my own experience as a client of various services that ask you for a feedback: Almost every time that I leave without a feedback; it means that I was disappointed. On those occasions I would just walk away thinking: "Oh, well. Who cares?”

 

My theory is that a client really needs to pe POed to leave a bad feedback. I'm sure many unhappy, or moderately happy, would just leave without a feedback.

 

Of course, clients also leave because they are too busy. But when it happens so many times in a row, I don't know... something is wrong. Not necessarily with the quality of the work, but maybe with the provider's communication skills.

 

Those are just some random thoughts of mine...

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
datasciencewonk
Community Guru
Kat C Member Since: Jul 11, 2016
13 of 25

@Rene K wrote:

@Renata S wrote:

I really wish UpWork would completely trash the no comment = bad feedback thing. 


 

It's not that easy. Clients leaving without feedback is not something a freelancer has control over, but it doesn't happen that much: I cannot be a statistical oddity, I have feedback on almost all my gigs (sometimes it requires to ping the buyer).

 

A lot of jobs without feedback in a row, however, may be an indicator of something going wrong. If the majority of clients would leave without feedback, almost everybody would experience this. Since it is not the case, I guess that Upwork saw it as an issue.

 

What follows is my own experience as a client of various services that ask you for a feedback: Almost every time that I leave without a feedback; it means that I was disappointed. On those occasions I would just walk away thinking: "Oh, well. Who cares?”

 

My theory is that a client really needs to pe POed to leave a bad feedback. I'm sure many unhappy, or moderately happy, would just leave without a feedback.

 

Of course, clients also leave because they are too busy. But when it happens so many times in a row, I don't know... something is wrong. Not necessarily with the quality of the work, but maybe with the provider's communication skills.

 

Those are just some random thoughts of mine...


 Maybe implement an auto close option on the client side?

 

They can choose to check a box that states "this contract will auto close after X number of days of inactivity."

 

Not sure how that would factor into the JSS algorithm. But, it could be modeled after the Ethereum Smart Contract. Though, admittedly, that might be too complex for the Upwork system.

 

 

renata101
Community Guru
Renata S Member Since: Jun 10, 2014
14 of 25

 Maybe implement an auto close option on the client side?

 

They can choose to check a box that states "this contract will auto close after X number of days of inactivity."

 

Not sure how that would factor into the JSS algorithm. But, it could be modeled after the Ethereum Smart Contract. Though, admittedly, that might be too complex for the Upwork system.

 

 


 Kat,  That's a good idea. That would definitely be a good thing in terms of the open contracts issue. I just closed an open contract with a client who said he thought that once the contract was paid, it was closed. I wasn't aware that it was still open and he wasn't aware that he had to close it. I think something like this would really be helpful for both issues. If UpWork wants the feedback, then it could be conditional on the client leaving feedback. It's hard to have to hound already busy clients for this sort of thing. 

renata101
Community Guru
Renata S Member Since: Jun 10, 2014
15 of 25

@Rene K wrote:

@Renata S wrote:

I really wish UpWork would completely trash the no comment = bad feedback thing. 


 

It's not that easy. Clients leaving without feedback is not something a freelancer has control over, but it doesn't happen that much: I cannot be a statistical oddity, I have feedback on almost all my gigs (sometimes it requires to ping the buyer).

 

A lot of jobs without feedback in a row, however, may be an indicator of something going wrong. If the majority of clients would leave without feedback, almost everybody would experience this. Since it is not the case, I guess that Upwork saw it as an issue.

 

What follows is my own experience as a client of various services that ask you for a feedback: Almost every time that I leave without a feedback; it means that I was disappointed. On those occasions I would just walk away thinking: "Oh, well. Who cares?”

 

My theory is that a client really needs to pe POed to leave a bad feedback. I'm sure many unhappy, or moderately happy, would just leave without a feedback.

 

Of course, clients also leave because they are too busy. But when it happens so many times in a row, I don't know... something is wrong. Not necessarily with the quality of the work, but maybe with the provider's communication skills.

 

Those are just some random thoughts of mine...


I hope we're not stealing Bobby's thread...

It's good that people are thinking about this. Personally, I thnk no feedback = no information

However, If I think of the number of times I haven't left feedback for a client, it was because it had been a bad experience.  Also, the was one who was a little off-kilter that I didn't want to provoke -- actually, in order to end the contract quickly, I had to leave feedback, but it was not as bad as the experience had been.  

Unfortunately, UpWork is much more client focused that Elance or ODesk, and doesn't seem to consider the freelancer experience as seriously. Many no comments on the client end probably reflects the kind of pattern that you mention. But it doesn't seem like the freelancer feeling about the contract has any bearing on how the score is considered.

In terms of communication, there's a quote I always think about. It's usually used more in a pro-feminist sense, but I think it's really applicable freelancer/client communications: "Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did except backwards and in high heels." There are days I just can't work hard enough at being Ginger! There has to be some equity! I don't think there's any understanding that sometimes the equation is more like bad freelancer feedback = bad client. It takes two to tango badly. That's not a possibility they really consider. I know you get to remove one feedback and that helps a bit, but I think the whole focus is completely client centred. We're actually paying UpWork, so in a way we are just as much cients in this system. Although we are not considered in this way (when I think of it, it's weird. I pay 3.5 to 7 times as much as my client in fees...yet it seems that my opinions don't have as much weight).

I have to stop or I will be typing until Monday since this issue really bothers me. If this continues, it needs to be on another thread.

I listen to a lot of audiobooks and I'd like to hear Bobby as a narrator for someone's story. 


versailles
Community Guru
Rene K Member Since: Jul 10, 2014
16 of 25

@Renata S wrote:


I listen to a lot of audiobooks and I'd like to hear Bobby as a narrator for someone's story. 


 +1000

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
bbakersvoice
Ace Contributor
Bobby B Member Since: May 21, 2017
17 of 25

Well that seems to be an issue with the current system....I do have quite a bit of feedback/reviews but the latest projects I ran into issues with "unresponsive" clients.  I did the work, they told me they liked it & paid me but they never closed out the contracts.  So they sat there open for quite some time and after many attempts at trying to get them to respond/close out the contracts I just had to pull the plug.  I closed them out and left feedback for the clients.

 

I am not sure if they will return and leave feedback or how that works?

 

Most of my clients have been good about closing out contracts and leaving feedback but the I had a handful that just vanished.

renata101
Community Guru
Renata S Member Since: Jun 10, 2014
18 of 25

@Bobby B wrote:

 

I am not sure if they will return and leave feedback or how that works?

 

Most of my clients have been good about closing out contracts and leaving feedback but the I had a handful that just vanished.


 When you close a contract, the client has two weeks to leave you feedback. It's the same thing the other way around; if the client closes it, you get two weeks to leave them feedback. 

As for the disappear acts, I'm not sure if first-time clients (or even repeat clients)  understand that the contract doesn't close automatically once they've paid. That's something one of my vanishing acts told me when I tracked him down. I think a lot of people might just assume that. 

bbakersvoice
Ace Contributor
Bobby B Member Since: May 21, 2017
19 of 25

Thanks for the feedback and support...I was suprised because most of my clients closed out the contracts as soon as the milestone was achieved and left feedback.  Had a couple that were just sitting their for weeks and all attempts to get client to respond failed.   Should I have not closed them out and just left them open?

renata101
Community Guru
Renata S Member Since: Jun 10, 2014
20 of 25

@Bobby B wrote:

Thanks for the feedback and support...I was suprised because most of my clients closed out the contracts as soon as the milestone was achieved and left feedback.  Had a couple that were just sitting their for weeks and all attempts to get client to respond failed.   Should I have not closed them out and just left them open?


This is something I've been trying to figure out without a lot of success. There have been some changes to the way the JSS scores are calculated and what the score includes. Unfortunately, the way that's gone down has not been particularly great in terms of how the information is disseminated. I didn't know that the most current information was mainly on the forums. I've been going through customer service and people seem to give different answers about things.

Lately I've been told that it's bad to have inactive contracts, but not how long the needs to be inactive for they are considered negatively on the score.  Sometimes when one becomes inactive for long enough, it will have a message on it saying so. I don't know if those are the only ones that count. This gives me a problem because I have clients who have work for me on a sporadic basis and they like to put it all one one contract rather than separate ones. So I don't know whether it's stale if the message comes up or if it's considered stale before that. 

Also, I hadn't heard about the no feedback issue in any detail until recently and I can't really follow the discussions I've heard about that. Some people say "if a freelancer has a pattern of no feedbacks on their profile it is considered negatively in their JSS." I don't know what constitutes "a pattern." It could be anything. Three in a row? Twelve over a 6 month period? I'd like to know some more definitive information about it because I have clients with last-minute stuff from time to time. It's an occupational hazard for me during slow periods. If it wasn't slow, I wouldn't necessarily want to take them.

That's as much as I know. If you find anything more out, let me know. Smiley Happy 


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