Difficult client.

svimp · ‎05-05-2020

Hi,

I am having a hard time with a client.

He is constantly asking for changes. He reached revision number 23.

The annoying thing is that on the last revision he basically wanted me to change the layout back exactly how I proposed it the first time. He is basically back to the initial proposed design.

Besides this, it is the only firs milestone that we are working on, and he is planning for more. I clearly don't want to lose more time with this client.

Meanwhile, other clients are asking me if I am available, and since I don't want to miss the deadlines for other clients, I had to refuse some work invitations.

One thing to know is that I have not Submitted Work For Payment yet, I only sent the proposal in the Upwork chat window. Maybe this can come to my advantage if I cancel the contract?

What is your advice on this? Should I risk a bad review and cancel the contract or should I lose new clients to avoid a bad review?

What would you do if you were in my situation?

prestonhunter · ‎05-05-2020

You made a mistake when you created the original agreement. You should have specified "zero revisions." Or "this milestone task includes one round of revisions with up to fifteen minutes of work involved."

re: "One thing to know is that I have not Submitted Work For Payment yet, I only sent the proposal in the Upwork chat window. Maybe this can come to my advantage if I cancel the contract?"

Were you officially hired? If you never officially accepted a contract, then you can just block this time-waster and there is nothing he can do. If you look here:

Upwork -> My Jobs -> My Jobs

...and see the contract listed, then you WERE hired, and you really should finish the first milestone.

jr-translation · ‎05-05-2020

Ciprian M wrote:
Hi,

I am having a hard time with a client.

He is constantly asking for changes. He reached revision number 23.
The annoying thing is that on the last revision he basically wanted me to change the layout back exactly how I proposed it the first time. He is basically back to the initial proposed design.

Besides this, it is the only firs milestone that we are working on, and he is planning for more. I clearly don't want to lose more time with this client.

Meanwhile, other clients are asking me if I am available, and since I don't want to miss the deadlines for other clients, I had to refuse some work invitations.

One thing to know is that I have not Submitted Work For Payment yet, I only sent the proposal in the Upwork chat window. Maybe this can come to my advantage if I cancel the contract?

What is your advice on this? Should I risk a bad review and cancel the contract or should I lose new clients to avoid a bad review?

What would you do if you were in my situation?

A contract with no pay will hit your JSS. How much compared to a poor feedback left by the client I do not know.

I would offer one last revision and hand it over officially. If the client leaves a poor feedback, use your top rated perk and have it removed. But I would take the money after all the time you ~~wasted~~ used on his project.

rafsun_ug · ‎05-05-2020

This reminds me of some worst experiences in my UW platform. Mostly, I have met very good clients here but I also had met 3 or 4 worst clients and persons in the world. But first of all, I want to mention to you that if you or the client cancel the contract without earning anything, your JSS will drop to 4% within 12 hours to 2 days. That's mean your JSS will be 96% within a blink. Also if you submitted officially and if you cancel or end the contract without approving the payment from the client's side, you will not receive any payment. That means, it will be zero earning contract and it will also affect a 4% drop from your JSS. But if you receive a bad review after receiving some payments (at least $1), there might be a possibility to save some JSS% if he doesn't give you 1*. And also you can remove that from your profile as you a TR though it will not help you from dropping the JSS. And if the client doesn't give you any feedback, you might be saved then.

It was very pathetic that you already gave him 23 revisions and still, it's not solved. There is no doubt the client is not a good person and I 100% believe politeness and softness don't suit everyone but we have to be polite with patience. I am not giving you any suggestion, I am just sharing some from my previous experiences from the worst clients. I crossed some clients only by giving them many times of revisions, also gained 5* feedback from them. But I was stuck with some people. You might request the client to give his final decision for the revision one more time and can share him the difficulty or time for changing a design as you were already given him 23 times of revisions. Hope, he is a human being!
Another difficult problem you can face here after submitting the work, the client might disagree to pay you and refuse your submission if he the worst person. You need to fight then. In this case, you can contact customer support with the evidence of your messages. But be confirmed about the payment. You should not cancel or end the contract with zero earning. It will not give you anything...it will just take your reputation. But if you receive any kind of payment from this contract, just end the contract and go ahead. don't bother yourself for the bad review in this case.

jr-translation · ‎05-05-2020

Rafsun S wrote:
This reminds me of some worst experiences in my UW platform. Mostly, I have met very good clients here but I also had met 3 or 4 worst clients and persons in the world. But first of all, I want to mention to you that if you or the client cancel the contract without earning anything, your JSS will drop to 4% within 12 hours to 2 days. That's mean your JSS will be 96% within a blink. Also if you submitted officially and if you cancel or end the contract without approving the payment from the client's side, you will not receive any payment. That means, it will be zero earning contract and it will also affect a 4% drop from your JSS. But if you receive a bad review after receiving some payments (at least $1), there might be a possibility to save some JSS% if he doesn't give you 1*. And also you can remove that from your profile as you a TR though it will not help you from dropping the JSS. And if the client doesn't give you any feedback, you might be saved then.

Not true.

A: The JSS depends on many factors.

B: The JSS is updated every other sunday.

rafsun_ug · ‎05-05-2020

Nope, this is the truth! The JSS drop down to 4% if the client/freelancer end or cancel the contract without earning anything! Definitely, the JSS drops on many factors but this is one of the main factors (except the bad review or private feedback) for dropping a huge percentage of JSS! And also this will take almost 6 months to recover that gradually. And who knows the contract can be canceled on Saturday night! I know, you are thousands of times more experiences than me. but I don't know why you have confusion about the percentage of dropping the JSS, especially in this case! It doesn't take a long time for dropping but it walks like a snail for upping the JSS!

jr-translation · ‎05-05-2020

Rafsun S wrote:
Nope, this is the truth! The JSS drop down to 4% if the client/freelancer end or cancel the contract without earning anything! Definitely, the JSS drops on many factors but this is one of the main factors (except the bad review or private feedback) for dropping a huge percentage of JSS! And also this will take almost 6 months to recover that gradually. And who knows the contract can be canceled on Saturday night!

So you are saying, a freelancer who does not want to risk a negative feedback from a client should just close the contract without getting paid and the JSS will never go down more than 4%?

rafsun_ug · ‎05-05-2020

You are just saying the opposite of what I said! Why!!!!

jr-translation · ‎05-06-2020

Rafsun S wrote:
You are just saying the opposite of what I said! Why!!!!

I am not. All I said is that your claim that the JSS is updated within 12 hours to 2 days is wrong as well as your claim: The JSS drop down to 4% if the client/freelancer end or cancel the contract without earning anything!

abinadab-agbo · ‎05-05-2020

Rafsun,

My last nothing paid contract a couple years back dropped me 7%.

For some people it drops 10% or more.

It all depends on how many contracts are in the calculation window, also keeping in mind they are now dollar-value weighed. But often, a nothing-paid contract hurts the JSS more than a bad review.

And, the JSS updates once every two weeks, not 'in the following four days'.

lucioric · ‎05-06-2020

Hi. the corrections of bugs in the originally requesting software should be considered as part of the original work, but if the client sees the work and does not like the design, the corrections should be a new milestone. unfortunately, such kinds of client exists, and such kind of jobs. I went on a fixed price job for creating an installer, but the installer tested in my side was ok, but in the side of the client had issues, and was returned me back and back. I had to do much work to get the installer OK, even I had to take the installer to a temporal AWS virtual machine to test it. the round of sending the software to the client and he returning it to me toke 3 months. For a $100 USD contract. Probably in my spiderweb it would reach for a year of covering my expenses (irony). No. I have credit card debts, rent, expenses, etc. Countless times I wanted to throw away the job, but stopped because not wanting to affect my job success score. and, after that all, client did not want to pay me more, nor nothing. I am keeping him as client, but the same importance that he gives to me, is the same that I give to him (and he gets surprised of me doing that). I strongly prefer hourly jobs, and clients that give me bonuses when I tell them that the work that they requested became more dificcult than planned.

jr-translation · ‎05-06-2020

Lucio Ricardo M wrote:
Hi. the corrections of bugs in the originally requesting software should be considered as part of the original work, but if the client sees the work and does not like the design, the corrections should be a new milestone. unfortunately, such kinds of client exists, and such kind of jobs. I went on a fixed price job for creating an installer, but the installer tested in my side was ok, but in the side of the client had issues, and was returned me back and back. I had to do much work to get the installer OK, even I had to take the installer to a temporal AWS virtual machine to test it. the round of sending the software to the client and he returning it to me toke 3 months. For a $100 USD contract. Probably in my spiderweb it would reach for a year of covering my expenses (irony). No. I have credit card debts, rent, expenses, etc. Countless times I wanted to throw away the job, but stopped because not wanting to affect my job success score. and, after that all, client did not want to pay me more, nor nothing. I am keeping him as client, but the same importance that he gives to me, is the same that I give to him (and he gets surprised of me doing that). I strongly prefer hourly jobs, and clients that give me bonuses when I tell them that the work that they requested became more dificcult than planned.

This job had nothing to do with software or fixing a bug but personal preference.

wlyonsatl · ‎05-05-2020

Ciprian,

I rarely do fixed price projects on Upwork, partly because of the problem you are having - scope creep.

The last fixed price project I completed - two weeks ago - was a case in which the client wanted to keep making changes without limit. I finished the third iteration of my work on their document and told the client further work would require an additional funded milestone.

The client didn't agree to funding an extra milestone and I didn't do any more work.

The client had paid half the total of the project upfront (which I always require on "urgent" projects), but the project had turned into "please write a lot of new text for us" from the original "our document needs a few edits."

My main mistake was not limiting the number of revisions allowable under the original contract. Live and learn, eh?

At some point, you just have to tell your client that if he wants to change the scope of the project then you both need to agree on the additional work he requires and your additional payment for the additional work. Canceling the project may be necessary, but I hope that isn't your only option.

Good luck!

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-05-2020

I agree with Jennifer and would only add this: on a fixed-rate project, always always always specify how many rounds of revision are included in the fee. You may opt for more than one round depending on the complexity of the assignment and what kind of vibe you get from the client about how well they communicate, collaborate and cooperate. Just think it through and build it into your fee, then stick to it. Most clients appreciate boundaries and the ones who don't -- well, we want them to identify themselves earlier rather than later.

svimp · ‎05-05-2020

Thank you all for your advice.

I guess I will bear with him until this milestone will be paid and if he needs more work I will set some rules from the start.

jr-translation · ‎05-06-2020

Ciprian M wrote:
Thank you all for your advice.

I guess I will bear with him until this milestone will be paid and if he needs more work I will set some rules from the start.

You do not really want to continue with this client. Apply the rules for future clients but do yourself the favour and skip this client in the future.

abinadab-agbo · ‎05-06-2020

Jennifer R wrote:
Ciprian M wrote:
Thank you all for your advice.

I guess I will bear with him until this milestone will be paid and if he needs more work I will set some rules from the start.
You do not really want to continue with this client. Apply the rules for future clients but do yourself the favour and skip this client in the future.

Yeah, 23 revisions sounds mind-boggling to me.

This guy has loads of patience.

svimp · ‎05-06-2020

The client replied today saying that he is finally happy with the changes and he asks me to go continue with the other designs that are meant to be assigned on other milestones.

I will Submit Work for payment and ask him to fund the next milestones and also I will set some rules that limit the revisions rounds.

Thanks!

wlyonsatl · ‎05-06-2020

That sounds like a reasonable approach, Ciprian.

But don't hesitate to say "No" to further unreasonable demands from the client. He needs to be re-trained about how a productive freelancer-client relationship should work.

Good luck!

feed_my_eyes · ‎05-06-2020

Ciprian M wrote:
The client replied today saying that he is finally happy with the changes and he asks me to go continue with the other designs that are meant to be assigned on other milestones.

I will Submit Work for payment and ask him to fund the next milestones and also I will set some rules that limit the revisions rounds.

Thanks!

Are you sure that you want to keep working with this client? If you do, I suggest that you switch to an hourly contract.

abinadab-agbo · ‎05-05-2020

Ciprian M wrote:
One thing to know is that I have not Submitted Work For Payment yet,...

This is actually your first problem - failing to click the button when you've deemed the work complete.

If you'd like to get paid with this kind of client, you must click the Submit work/Get paid button.

He won't pay of his own accord unless he is jolted in this manner.

boshoffirene · ‎05-06-2020

Hit the get paid button and upload the work there and say: last round of rewrites further work would need a new milestone.

bizwriterjohn · ‎05-07-2020

The JSS is the most important asset we carry in early proposal considerations. I view it as "protect at all costs". My advice to competitors in my verticals: when a job goes south - by all means - complain, ask for a refund, cause job-ending problems. Hence increase the probability of getting a far lower rating because of it. I'll see you in the next competition to win work.

That is how a DNA-class, fanatic business competitor thinks. Now you can choose which profile of competitor you are.

abinadab-agbo · ‎05-07-2020

The OP can maintain a great JSS, and also get paid for his work.

yitwail · ‎05-07-2020

Ciprian M wrote:

What is your advice on this? Should I risk a bad review and cancel the contract or should I lose new clients to avoid a bad review?

What would you do if you were in my situation?

If you haven't been paid yet and cancel the contract, then the client gets a full refund and CANNOT leave public feedback, but they CAN leave bad negative feedback, which could lower your JSS that's currently 100%. What I would do, in your situation, depends on whether I've used the Top Rated feedback removal perk the last 3 months/10 jobs. If I have the perk in hand, then I would request milestone approval and dispute if necessary so I can get at least a partial payment from the client. Then, should the client leave poor feedback, which is to be expected, I would remove it with the perk and thus maintain my JSS.

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