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madinasj
Community Member

Discrimination based on location

Hello. Why clients are allowed to set locations for jobs that do not require freelancers to live somewhere specific? Why freelancers are not allowed to see jobs that are set to have specific locations? Please show me the laws that allow Upwork and/or clients to have non-discrete discrimination against freelancers not living in the US.

21 REPLIES 21
prestonhunter
Community Member

Marina:

Discernment and choice (or "discrimination", to use your word) is a good thing.

 

It means that you can choose between an expensive restaurant or an inexpensive one. It means that you can choose between hiring an expensive writer to help you with your website, or you can hire a more affordable one. It means that you can choose what country you travel to when you go on vacation. It means that you can choose who you date or marry. You may choose to date only people who have no criminal record, or only people who are not alcoholics, or only people who are of the same religious affiliation as you are. And it means that you can choose to hire a freelancer who lives in the United States, or Kazakhstan, or some place else.

 

This is how the Upwork system works. If this is something you disagree with - if you choose to make a discriminating choice and choose to not use or associate with a website such as Upwork - then you may certainly do so. (Or do you think that your right to discriminate in your choice of websites should be taken away?)

Hi Preston,

Your opinion is not corteus. Are you implying that freelancers from non-US countries are automatically "affordable"?

If two freelancers have same level of proficiency, language fluency and expertise, should one of them earn less just because he is not from the US? Should he be opted out from the selection of professionals available?

 

If the Upwork system works that way, it doesn't mean that it is 100% right.

tlbp
Community Member


Madina P wrote:

Hello. Why clients are allowed to set locations for jobs that do not require freelancers to live somewhere specific? Why freelancers are not allowed to see jobs that are set to have specific locations? Please show me the laws that allow Upwork and/or clients to have non-discrete discrimination against freelancers not living in the US.


Is there a law in your country that forces clients to hire people they don't want to?

petra_r
Community Member

To be honest, would you rather waste your connects applying for contracts you would never be hired for?

madinasj
Community Member

Hi Petra,

Firstly, why do you assume that I would never be hired for a job? Do you represent all the cilents on the Upwork site?

 

Secondly, how a client would know, whether I am a perfect fit or not, if I am not even given a chance to view and apply for the job in the first place?

 

Thirdly, why do you think YOU should decide, how and when should I "waste" my connects?

 

And finally, I am asking which laws specifically allow the Upwork clients to ban someone from applying based on location

 

 

a_lipsey
Community Member


Madina P wrote:

 Please show me the laws that allow Upwork and/or clients to have non-discrete discrimination against freelancers not living in the US.


First: anti discrimination laws in the US cover age, race, gender, disability,  marital status, and in some places sexual orientation. They do not cover geographic location as a protected class. 

 

Second: many clients require US only or location specific freelancers due to the nature of the work. This may not affect your field, but it does affect mine. Legally some clients are required to hire from a certain location, be it US or elsewhere. So the freelancers who would be eligible for those jobs should not be able to bid at all because you're not eligible? 

 

ETA: Religion and nationality are also protected classes. 

Hi Amanda,

 

Firstly, anti discrimination laws in the US DO cover national origin. The laws forbid discrimination based upon an individual's birthplace, ancestry, culture, linguistic characteristics (common to a specific group) or accent.

The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) makes it illegal for an employer to discriminate with respect to hiring, firing, or recruitment or referral for a fee, based upon an individual's citizenship or immigration status.

Why did you leave this out?

 

Secondly, I do understand that the nature of work might require specific location or language fluency. But jobs involving creativity must certainly DO NOT.

 

 

 

petra_r
Community Member


Madina P wrote:

The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) makes it illegal for an employer to discriminate with respect to hiring, firing, or recruitment or referral for a fee, based upon an individual's citizenship or immigration status.


As soon as Upwork becomes involved in "employment", you can raise your case....

Also, the act only applies to people in the US.

 

madinasj
Community Member


Petra R wrote:


As soon as Upwork becomes involved in "employment", you can raise your case....

 


How is Upwork NOT involved in employment? Involvement in a client/freelancer relationship is its main business model.

 


Petra R wrote:

Also, the act only applies to people in the US.

 


Omg, Mrs Petra R, you don't even see, that you are a **Edited for Community Guidelines**


Madina P wrote:

Petra R wrote:


As soon as Upwork becomes involved in "employment", you can raise your case....

 


How is Upwork NOT involved in employment? Involvement in a client/freelancer relationship is its main business model.

 


Employment and independent contracting are seen as two distinct things in the US law. Laws that apply to employees don't apply to independent contractors who are viewed as businesses. 

 

A US-person is not necessary someone who has the US citizenship. It's someone who is located in the US, regardless of their citizenship. Non-US persons are people living outside of the US. American citizens living abroad cannot apply to Upwork US-only jobs. This has nothing to do with citizenship, nationality or origin.

 

Also, in their hiring process, clients can decide to contract with any business they want and to hire a freelancer from any country they want.

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless

Hi Rene,


Rene K wrote:

American citizens living abroad cannot apply to Upwork US-only jobs.

 

And that is discrimination. Making a job available to US-only is discrimination. This is how discrimination works.

 


Rene K wrote:

Also, in their hiring process, clients can decide to contract with any business they want and to hire a freelancer from any country they want.

Clients should absolutely hire a freelancer they want and like. However, freelancer's JOB suitability should be based on skills, past work, reviews, language fluency, aptitude tests' results. But NOT based on nationality or citizenship.

petra_r
Community Member


Madina P wrote:

Hi Rene,


Petra R wrote:  No, she did not

American citizens living abroad cannot apply to Upwork US-only jobs.

 


Petra R wrote: No, she did not

Also, in their hiring process, clients can decide to contract with any business they want and to hire a freelancer from any country they want.

 


I never wrote anything of the sort

petra_r
Community Member


Madina P wrote:


Omg, Mrs Petra R, you don't even see, that you are a  **Edited for Community Guidelines**


Don't be ridiculous. I am not in the US either.

Laws of one country do not apply in other countries. Your lack of understanding of laws does not make me part of discrimination, and you want to take that back right now, especially in the current climate.

 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

JoanneP
Moderator
Moderator

Hi Madina,

 

Sometimes clients will need a freelancer who is located in the same country. This could be because their projects may require localized knowledge, the possibility of on-site coordination, specific compliance needs, or other factors that make working with someone within their country easier. Please know that this is not in any way intended to discriminate non-US freelancers. Feel free to reach out if you need further assistance. We're here to help. Thank you.

~ Joanne
Upwork
madinasj
Community Member

Hi Joanne,

If a client has/needs specific factors that make working with someone within their country easier, they should list these factors. Nationality and citizenship ARE NOT the factors. It IS a way to discriminate non-US freelancers.

 

The idea of freelance itself is that a client/freelancer might find anyone from around the world.

 

Furthermore, four of your collagues, "community gurus" instead of providing a professional answer/advice, procedeed to attack and discriminate me and my country!

 

I find neither your answer nor your collagues' prejudiced comments "professional"

-

Madina

Hi Madina,

 

I understand your frustration with this, and I`m sorry about any confusion. Just to confirm that Upwork does not allow or support discrimination against color, race or national origin. If a client expresses a preference in a job post that is discriminatory, they are in violation of our Terms of Service and we will take action and remove those job posts. Thank you.

~ Goran
Upwork

Hi Goran,

Thank you for your reply.

However, my concern is not a specific client, but rather that this option is provided by the Upwork platform itself.

I believe that job categories should be revised based on whether they are allowed to exclude countries. Jobs that require Creativity etc should not have "location" as freelancer's "required qualifications".

 

Please see screenshots attached.

Screenshot 2020-06-08 16.39.05.png

Screenshot 2020-06-08 16.32.16.pngScreenshot 2020-06-08 16.34.43.png

--

Regards, Madina

petra_r
Community Member


Madina P wrote:

Jobs that require Creativity etc should not have "location" as freelancer's "required qualifications".

 

Please see screenshots attached.

 

Screenshot 2020-06-08 16.32.16.png

 


Would you like someone to explain the difference between "required" and "preferred" qualifications? I can see the point about the blocking out of everywhere other than US or UK to a degree, but the "preferences are just that. You can still apply. Those are preferences, not requirements

madinasj
Community Member

Dear Petra,

Please see THREE screenshots attached. One of the job does not allow me even open the job link.

I don't understand, how do you justify yourself reading only 1/3 of my post?

Hi All,

 

This thread will be closed for further replies because it has gone off-topic. Thank you all for participating.

Also, some posts will be edited or removed in line with our Community Guidelines. I would also like to ask you all to be mindful of our Community Guidelines when posting in our Community.
Thank you.

~ Goran
Upwork

Hi Madina,

 

To add to the information Joanne and Goran provided, we allow clients to search and hire based on the freelancer’s location because we recognize that some projects may require localized knowledge, work within certain time zones, or other factors that require the freelancer be in a specific location.

With this feature, we hope to meet the needs of clients who need talent within their own country. By doing so, we hope to get them started on Upwork before opening the door to future projects that can be done globally.

 

Regarding the job you couldn't access, when a U.S. client specifies they’re only interested in hiring a freelancer who lives in the U.S., freelancers outside of the U.S. will not see the job post. That does not mean you will not see new job posts from clients in the U.S., however. Many clients prefer the flexibility of hiring freelancers in any location and we expect they will still make their job post visible to all freelancers, regardless of where they live. And as always, you’ll be able to see those opportunities.

 

Feel free to follow up on this thread but do note that we'll need to close it in case the discussion starts involving personal attacks again. Thank you.

~ Vladimir
Upwork
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