Dispute Process is a Joke!!

[customsilence]

I have a cliented who created this milestone "1st round fo revisions."  

I complete the first round and submit for payment, no payment released.  4 rounds later no milestone released and he wants his money back.  Now we are in the dispute process and the Upwork mediator **Edited for Community Guidelines**has decided that even though I created 5 rounds of logos, that since the client says none are useful that he shouldn't have to pay for the first milestone of "1st round of revisions."   My first mistake that I won't make again was doing more work before the milestone was released (stupid me for trusting a client lol).  The bad apples ruin everything!

I am fine with the job being cancelled because the client was a joke and a major pain to deal with anyway.  Giving virtually no feedback and telling me he would do things with no intention of doing them.  The problem is I deserve the first round "period," based on the milestone description but he wants to settle for half of it.  

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Ronald,

I`m sorry to hear about the bad experience you had with your client. To learn more about our dispute process check out this Thread. 

I also checked your dispute and our team is waiting on your response back. Feel free to post your questions directly there and our team member will assist you further as soon as possible. Thank you.

[customsilence]

I don't have anymore questions for your mediator. I want to see what the
community has to say about their experience with this joke of a dispute
process. You say you want to protect the freelancers and clients, that is
fine. Though this is a clear case of protecting a "client" rather than the
"freelancer" because the "client" is clearly in the wrong.

If both sides are mutually in the wrong I get it, but you should not
protect one side if the other side is clearly wrong. That is
borderline collusion. Why is he being protected? What did he do right?
He withheld funds, vague feedback at best, and then lied during the
dispute process. Sounds like a winner. On the other hand I have made
Upwork "thousands" and have been here with a great track record for years
but I am the one getting screwed, hmm yeah that makes sense ha.

[petra_r]

---

Ronald S wrote:
Though this is a clear case of protecting a "client" rather than the
"freelancer" because the "client" is clearly in the wrong.

---

The mediator does not make any decision at all, they only SUGGEST a "NON-BINDING" solution which you do not have to accept.

If you don't want to accept it, you can go for arbitration.

[bloggerjanet]

Upwork dispute process is really joke. Upwork whole meditation process favor only clients. Upwork is a failed platform which supports injustice. I have also went to dispute and after going thorugh it, I believe that it was not myu biggest mistake to work with such a dishonest client but myu biggest mistake is to believe in Upwork's words that payment is protecyted in escrow. Actually, Payment is protected  in escrow but not for freelancer. It is protected for client only. That's the reality of this failed platform.

[prestonhunter]

Ronald: any cynicism you have about the dispute process is warranted.

It is not Upwork's intention that you get into a dispute.

Any dispute means that their intended process has broken down.

It is  VERY common for both freelancers and clients to think that the dispute process will mean that Upwork will make a determination about who is "right" and who is "wrong." But that is something that Upwork dispute personnel are expressly forbidden from doing. It is their job to NOT make a decision, but to facilitate discussion between the two parties. That is why they call it "mediation." 

[customsilence]

Ok I get that but what would keep a client from continually taking things to dispute in order to not pay the full amount or any amount at all every time they have a project?  Especially smaller amount projects that going to arbotration doesn't make sense.  Why can't there be a process for lower dollar amounts that makes sense?  I totally blame myself for trusting this guy and continuing to work without the submission released but just really irritated that he is essentially getting away with it and lying during the process also.  I don't mean to take it out on you all, it is just a very frustrating process and I feel like I am being screwed when I did a lot of work and deserve the money.

[prestonhunter]

re: "I get that but what would keep a client from continually taking things to dispute in order to not pay the full amount or any amount at all every time they have a project?"

It is physically possible for a bad person and/or bad client to do exactly that.

Upwork's system offers MANY protections for freelancers. But the system does not completely prevent bad clients from doing bad things.

I understand this, which is why I use proactive techniques to limit any potential problems from clients behaving badly.

One thing I do (which you already pointed out that you realize now) is that I never work on an unfunded milestone. Regularly-participating freelancers here in the Forum are unanimous in offering this advice. This is indeed how Upwork's fixed-price system is intended to be used. If work has not been funded, don't do it yet. The "total project budget" is irrelevent.

The other thing I do is that I never work on large fixed-price milestones with "unknown" clients. (Meaning: Clients I have not worked with before.)

I start only with a small task, no more than an hour or two of work. No more than about $100. That way, if a client demonstrates that she can not be trusted in the way she deals with fixed-price contracts, I can walk away if I need to, without having lost too much time and money.

For example, if I finish a task, and the client refuses to release payment by continually clicking the "Request Changes" button, or if she asks for extra work beyond the original agreement, I can simply tell her that she needs to choose whether or not to pay or not pay. The full amount. I can tell her if she wants to pay, she will receive ownership of the work, and if she doesn't want to pay, that is her choice as well. But I don't let myself be "held hostage" by a client who asks for more and more work without paying more.

[customsilence]

How is that impossible?

[customsilence]

Nevermind I read that worng sorry.  That seems like a problem that needs fixed then.

[prestonhunter]

re: "That seems like a problem that needs fixed then."

Well, yes... I'm sure many (or most) freelancers would like to see the functioning of the system tilted more in their direction... making it less likely or impossible for clients to dispute.

But the system has been the way that it is for a long time. I'm not sure that we are likely to see changes any time soon.

Some of what annoys us about this system isn't even "Upwork-derived." It actually hearkens to the way "escrow" works, and some of that is actually mandated by law. By setting up a "true escrow" system, Upwork essentially agrees that they WILL allow clients to "dispute" payments to freelancers... that they WILL provide a system in which money is not AUTOMATICALLY released to freelancers when the freelancers claim to have finished the task.

[customsilence]

I can see where there may be problems with that also, bad freelancers
claiming they did something they didn't. I suppose based on the facts I
would probably win arbitration, I am very tempted and very
seriously thinking about it.

[prestonhunter]

It is extremely rare for freelancers to lose in arbitration.

It is also common for freelancers to be willing to go to arbitration, but the client backs down. In that case the money goes to the freelancer, and nobody pays arbitration fees.

[customsilence]

I already threatened to go to arbitration and probably will, just need to
wait until payday. I don't see how I could lose considering the
circumstances, just frustrating.

[3ad490bb]

I am a client and I will say the policy is just a joke.... It was agreed for me that 400 for the logo. And if I want to include the brand book is 900.  - So I had 900 in my fond...big mistake for me... after the logo, we agreed in writing that we would not continue and just pay her for the logo (400). Freelancer than admitted that the logo she delivered was bad (also in writing)... So I was like... Why would I pay for anything that even the Freelancer knew was bad?? I cancled the project and left her 50. She filed a dispute asking for 900. The dispute team finalized as me paying her 300 since I am not happy and I agreed but she does not. She now wants 600. So as a result, I am left with the private arbitration option where I am forced to pay 330.. Either way, I would have to pay more than what is written in the contract. It was absolutely a disaster. And I am shocked that freelancer can just delete whatever comment client writes.. I would understand if my comment if offensive with bad words, but everything i wrote was just the fact... anyway... I paid 600 for a 400 logo that freelancer said was not good. 😂