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sarwatnaqvi
Community Member

Dissatisfied with Upwork at Present

1- Connects Management:

Having to buy connects is understandable as then there are less proposals submitted which makes it easier for the client to hire. But there are 2 main issues associated with connects' management system:

a) There are clients who post a job and many times they don’t view the job proposals or they don’t even bother hiring anyone (I have seen this happen for many weeks and months). Hence there should be a specific time during which a client should be bound to hire an UpWorker and beyond that time the job should automatically close and connects should be returned to all the applicants as not even one applicant was hired.

b) Now that Upworkers are paying for connects as well as spending a lot of their precious time to apply for suitable jobs, which takes hours of searching and much more time for targeted proposal writing therefore Upwork should definitely reduce their fee from 20% back to 10% as it was 3-4 years back, before the merger. Unless we can track our time and be paid by UpWork for time we spend to apply for jobs.


2- Job snippets:

It should be an understandable fact that UpWork cannot be successful without the freelancers. These days UpWorkers are paying for the connects in addition to the 20%, 10% and 5% commission on every cent earned; but still nothing is being done to save their time and effort when they are trying to apply for jobs; even though it can help UpWork become a much more effective tool for online job search.

Job snippets must mention the following to save Freelancers time:
a) Number of Connects required to apply for the job

b) Must have qualifications, skills, location which are specified by the client. Instead of freelancers opening an entire job post scrolling down/while submitting proposal and then finding unique specifications without which the client is not even ready to view someone’s proposal. Then these should definitely appear on the main job dashboard as part of the job snippet to save time. As Upworkers aren’t charging anything for the time they spend applying for jobs.


I have sent request for this previously to customer support but nothing seems to be changed.


3-Racism from Clients:

Mostly client from USA, Canada and UK seem to prefer hiring UpWorkers from First world countries. Even though it initially seems that they are looking for workers who are native English speakers and also who live in the same time zone. But that is not the actual case, as there are so many workers with a better online jobs rating, better English accent and good client feedback but still the preference to hire and pay a higher dollar rate is always taken by those who live and work in USA, UK, and Europe.

Yes, there are many clients who hire from Asian countries or third World countries but then their highest priority is to hire at the lowest rates even if they are looking for an Expert to complete the job.

Similarly take an example of a Project Manager, if hired from Pakistan etc. countries then a client is only willing to pay ranging between $3 - $10. But I have witnessed clients paying even $50/hour to a project manager who was residing in USA with similar skills but less years of online experience.

There may be other aspects to this issue but being an UpWorker for a long time now I have noticed the same thing when clients higher website developers. Paying $7- $10 per hour to Asians. But ready to pay $25 and above hourly to workers living in USA, UK etc.

3-Solution:

Clients should not be able to view the residing countries of UpWorkers rather they should only be able to view skills, job experience and only those aspects which really matter when the job contract will actually start. In case the time zone is of high concern then the client can add it in the job post the time zone they need the worker to be available at, hence the workers who cannot work during a certain time zone won’t apply. And if they are concerned about the native English accent etc. then an interview or an audio file from the freelancer can help sort that out.


I hope my feedback will actually be taken seriously as I have thoughtfully and sincerely written the main issues for the betterment and success of UpWork and UpWorkers.

 

 

34 REPLIES 34
kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi Saeeda Sarwat,

 

Thanks for sharing your feedback and suggestions. Let me address some of the points you listed.

 

1. I'm not aware of any plans to change the structure of Upwork Service Fee or automatically close job postings (job postings that have no activity for over 30 days already do expire.)

That said, we do encourage clients to create more-detailed job posts, reach out to clients who post jobs and don’t hire, and are looking into other ways to better ensure jobs that don't hire get closed. Another area we are looking at closely is helping freelancers better evaluate a job post and client so they can decide whether it is worth using Connects to submit a proposal.

 

2. By Job Snippet do you mean the information about the job you see on the Submit Proposal page? In that case the information like the number of connects needed is already showing there. Or are you referring to the job tiles that show in job search?

 

3. Again, I'm not aware of any plans to remove location information from freelancer profiles or job posts. There are various reasons why clients may need to hire freelancers in a specific country/area. Their projects may require localized knowledge, the possibility of on-site coordination, specific compliance needs or other factors. 

As for the rates and budgets offered, at Upwork the terms of any contract, including the rate, are for clients and freelancers to decide upon together. Any freelancer who is not satisfied with the rate offered can negotiate a higher rate or find a project they consider to be more suitable.

~ Valeria
Upwork

2- By Job snippet I am referring to the job titles/snippets on the main UpWork dashboard/feed.

Hi Valeria,

I am a freelancer in this network since 2007  (an early odesker and elancer).

Do you think Upwork is basically using freelancers money and time to finance the "free job posting" for the clients?

Thanks.

 


moez B wrote:

Hi Valeria,

I am a freelancer in this network since 2007  (an early odesker and elancer).

Do you think Upwork is basically using freelancers money and time to finance the "free job posting" for the clients?

Thanks.

 


Moez, do you think clients would post jobs and that you'd find work if they had to pay for every job post? I've hired 3 freelancers in the last 30 days, projects went great, I was very happy,  and they were paid, but if I had to pay to post these jobs, I'd go elsewhere.  It's in our best interest that clients are not charged to post jobs. But, if you're asking if clients pay no fees, that's not true. Clients pay a variety of different fees, just as freelancers do. 

>>  Clients pay a variety of different fees, just as freelancers do.

Amanda, I would like to not pay fees when you don't have too as well ... but it is not about clients Vs freelancers here, no. 

>> It's in our best interest that clients are not charged to post jobs.

No, I don't think Upwork is offering the clients free job posting because they won't use the platform otherwise. I am totally convinced that a client will *happily* pay a fee (at least monthly) to just be able to use the potential of profitability that the freelance market and this platform (Upwork) is offering. Frankly, who is here because a job posting is free?

It seems to me that Upwork could sustain its business just by the "connects"  fees and without a single real job contracted!! 

To me, being able to apply for free is not even close to a just situation and this is why:

Consider 1 free job posted by the average client that happens that he/she has the comfort to just forget about that post the same day or a few days later.

What happens when a job like that is posted :

-  Lots of "connects" used by the applicants applying till the last day before Upwork removes the ghost job.

-  Lots of hours wasted by freelancers to asses the job and write a proposal.

- Possible side work sent by the freelancers either upon the client's request or to convince the client by a possible solution.

- Long technical discussions and meetings which many times were a trick to get some free insights or solutions from more skilled professionals.

etc..

Considering the disproportioned amount of *damage* that a scam job posting does (compared to "scam proposal") I kindly demand that Upwork do something about it.

I don't demand that clients pay for job posting, I only demand that Upwork ethically review this situation which mostly damages the freelancers, as there was a time when ODesk and Elance have done lots of profits with free job/proposal posting.

 

I am concerned about a similar issue. Last night I raised the this issue to the support team.
"Hi, Just now I have applied for a job but after applying I noticed that client has a total of 4 jobs posted but 0% hire rate. Out of these only 1 job is open that I have applied for and the other 3 are not showing.

It took 6 connects to apply for the job and the client payment method isnt even verified.

I am concerned if this is a genuine client who will actually hire someone as I really do want to have my 6 connects wasted on someone who just posts on UpWork every once in a while and just has fun with people applying to their job."

These are some of the many issues which UpWorkers are facing. There should be something done about these.


moez B wrote:

>>  Clients pay a variety of different fees, just as freelancers do.

Amanda, I would like to not pay fees when you don't have too as well ... but it is not about clients Vs freelancers here, no. 

I just told you that clients pay fees. It's not free.  And you quoted where I said we pay fees. **Edited for Community Guidelines**

>> It's in our best interest that clients are not charged to post jobs.

No, I don't think Upwork is offering the clients free job posting because they won't use the platform otherwise. I am totally convinced that a client will *happily* pay a fee (at least monthly) to just be able to use the potential of profitability that the freelance market and this platform (Upwork) is offering. Frankly, who is here because a job posting is free?

It seems to me that Upwork could sustain its business just by the "connects"  fees and without a single real job contracted!! 

I just told you that clients, including myself, will not pay to post jobs.  So what you "think" doesn' t matter. Clients will leave in multitudes if they start having to sign up for a monthly fee or individual fee for every job post. 

To me, being able to apply for free is not even close to a just situation and this is why:

Consider 1 free job posted by the average client that happens that he/she has the comfort to just forget about that post the same day or a few days later.

What happens when a job like that is posted :

-  Lots of "connects" used by the applicants applying till the last day before Upwork removes the ghost job.

-  Lots of hours wasted by freelancers to asses the job and write a proposal.

- Possible side work sent by the freelancers either upon the client's request or to convince the client by a possible solution.

- Long technical discussions and meetings which many times were a trick to get some free insights or solutions from more skilled professionals.

etc..

All you mention above will happen in ALL RFP processes, which is what Upwork essentially is providing. You basically just want a guaranteed gig for every application you submit, and no marketing costs for your business. Sorry bud, it costs money to make money. We all have business expenses. 

Considering the disproportioned amount of *damage* that a scam job posting does (compared to "scam proposal") I kindly demand that Upwork do something about it.

In what world is a "demand" "kind"? There is simply LOADS of information on Upwork about how to avoid scams. If you aren't reading up on how to use the platform, and risks and benefits, that's not on Upwork to fix. That is you not doing due diligence. 

I don't demand that clients pay for job posting, I only demand that Upwork ethically review this situation which mostly damages the freelancers, as there was a time when ODesk and Elance have done lots of profits with free job/proposal posting. 

You already stated that you don't think clients should be able to post jobs for free, so now you're saying you don't want that. Not sure why we're having any discussion then. 

 


 

Amanda, I find your last reply full of emotions and a bit harsh and trying to discuss other things than facts.

 

This is for Upwork moderators if they were even reading this:

I've been a fulltime freelancer since ODesk, Elance and Upwork were created. I know the guidelines and conformed to every policy change since and never complained about anything. I was also successfully sustaining my family living mostly from my freelancing gain, during those years. I do currently have 3 long term contracts ongoing with good rates and happy clients, so obviously this is not an emotional post by a mad freelancer.

 

Today I come here to post my very first "complain" about a nonsense thing I am observing lately and I find someone else who was just complaining about the same thing a couple of days ago, and I am referring to Saeeda Sarwat N post.   I think this says it all.


moez B wrote:

Amanda, I find your last reply full of emotions and a bit harsh and trying to discuss other things than facts.

 

This is for Upwork moderators if they were even reading this:

I've been a fulltime freelancer since ODesk, Elance and Upwork were created. I know the guidelines and conformed to every policy change since and never complained about anything. I was also successfully sustaining my family living mostly from my freelancing gain, during those years. I do currently have 3 long term contracts ongoing with good rates and happy clients, so obviously this is not an emotional post by a mad freelancer.

 

Today I come here to post my very first "complain" about a nonsense thing I am observing lately and I find someone else who was just complaining about the same thing a couple of days ago, and I am referring to Saeeda Sarwat N post.   I think this says it all.


It's unfortunate you feel my reply was harsh but how you "feel" about Upwork is not a "fact." I presented you with facts about what clients pay and don't, and you are flipping back and forth between clients should pay and clients should not. 

 

This is a forum; therefore, many people will reply. If you don't like someone's response, then simply don't respond. If you don't like my response, then ignore me. But just like you, I am free to respond to a post by any person if I so choose or feel like I have something to contribute to the conversation. 

 

It's unfortunate that someone telling you how things actually work to correct your misperception is "full of emotions" and "harsh", but business is harsh, and my reply has no emotion in it. How you run your business is of no matter to me. But if you wish to continue with the misperceptions of what clients do or do not do and pay or do not pay, then that's fine. You have every right to ignore facts, if you want. 


moez B wrote:

Hi Valeria,

I am a freelancer in this network since 2007  (an early odesker and elancer).

Do you think Upwork is basically using freelancers money and time to finance the "free job posting" for the clients?

Thanks.

 


Job postings are literally the only reason for freelancers to come here. Why would you want to create an obstacle that meant fewer clients posted fewer jobs here? 

bizwriterjohn
Community Member

You response was extremely well-written.  I read it several times and wish for better for you, on many counts.

 

"3-Racism from Clients:

Mostly client from USA, Canada and UK seem to prefer hiring UpWorkers from First world countries. Even though it initially seems that they are looking for workers who are native English speakers and also who live in the same time zone. But that is not the actual case, as there are so many workers with a better online jobs rating, better English accent and good client feedback but still the preference to hire and pay a higher dollar rate is always taken by those who live and work in USA, UK, and Europe."

 

PERSPECTIVE, PERSONAL
I make a point to hire from developing countries because I feel there is value in extending work to those that have it harder to win work.  Lagos, Bucharest, Kyiv, Surat, and Schimla (India) are examples of locations in which I have found superstar contractors.


Does that make me a racist in reverse?  Am I doing this because I want to pay my team members less?  Or - am I simply making a business decision according to the best-fit for my business mission overall? 

 

I am obviously not a racist.  Perhaps, then, the same can be said for those who "hire local".

 

PERSPECTIVE, THE CANNON SHOOTS TWO WAYS

If I were to hire a project manager offshore; the first requirement would be, they are available during my U.S. CST business hours.  Always.  Upon request.  Not my problem if that is 3am in the morning as a simple example.

None I have interviewed agreed to this.  Would you?
I hired in the U.S.

 

----

The topic is complex.  Before one starts shooting off cannon shots indicating an entire group of people are racist, one must be willing to stand in front of the cannon in return.

OP, country-based hiring is not racist. Race-based hiring is racist. You'll often find that people who were raised and educated in developed countries come with a higher skill level than those who come from developing countries. That's not discrimination, it's a fact of life. Look at literacy rates, education rates, employment rates, GDP per capita... You and I are of the exact same race, but I've never felt any discrimination on this platform. Does this have anything to do with my race? No, probably not.

Remember, this is a money game. Clients are paying for value. They hire based on perceived value. They don't care about your ethnicity. They care about how skilled you are, they care about your language level (as that is the key to efficient communication and thus a successful project), they care about your experience with high-level employment. My two cents.


Varun G wrote:

You'll often find that people who were raised and educated in developed countries come with a higher skill level than those who come from developing countries. That's not discrimination, it's a fact of life. 


Actually, making assumptions about somebody's education and skills based on where they're from, sounds a lot like discrimination to me. It's nice to hear that you've never personally experienced any problems on Upwork, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. 

 

The OP didn't say that everybody on Upwork was racist, she just said that she wanted to be evaluated on her experience and skills rather than where she's from. I understand that Upwork has reasons why they're not going to consider her request, but I wouldn't be so quick to jump in and tell her that she's wrong.

 

Exactly! I am trying to share my personal experience and analysis after working on Upwork for many jobs. I have been here when it was odesk and still around. So, I have noticed some issues while applying for jobs recently and have an opinion which I wanted to share with fellow workers.


Christine A wrote:


Actually, making assumptions about somebody's education and skills based on where they're from, sounds a lot like discrimination to me.


I don't think that's wrong at all. The median literacy rate (or let's say, English proficiency rate) of US citizens is far, far, far greater than that of Indian citizens. Is it, thus, "discriminatory" to prefer a US citizen over an Indian citizen ceteris paribus? No, not at all. It's called being pragmatic. Call it whatever you want; it's not going to change.

"Race-based hiring is racist"

-Sure let me change my words from Racism to Origin based hiring is WRONG!

"Clients are paying for value. They hire based on perceived value. They don't care about your ethnicity. They care about how skilled you are, they care about your language level (as that is the key to efficient communication and thus a successful project), they care about your experience with high-level employment. "

-Exactly my point! If client are looking for the best dude for the job based on his/her skills etc. then that is what they should see. Therefore, if any part of their decision(from viewing a proposal to hiring a worker) is Really not based on origin then that should not be shown to the client. And only those skills etc. should be visible which really matter for the job success and client/UpWorker relationship.

OK, let me play "devil's advocate" here.

 

Would it not be also unfair if people from countries with a very low cost of living were, on average, paid the same rates as people who live in places with a very high cost of living?

 

Say people in country A need $ 1000 a month to have a nice standard of living, and people who live in country B need $ 4000 or more to have a comparable standard of living...

 

Essentially, if everyone, regardless of location, was paid the same, would that not mean that ultimately the person in country A would be paid 4 times as much as the person in country B?

Is that fair?

 

Of course clients have the right to know where their freelancers are from. It is not just a matter of price, it also has to do with cultural differences, with the way people communicate and their ways of doing business.  And timezones, too.

 

There will never be a time when Upwork will hide that information from clients, because it would lose them huge amounts of business.

 

And that would not do any of us, whereever we are, any good.

 


Petra R wrote:

OK, let me play "devil's advocate" here.

 

Would it not be also unfair if people from countries with a very low cost of living were, on average, paid the same rates as people who live in places with a very high cost of living?

 

Say people in country A need $ 1000 a month to have a nice standard of living, and people who live in country B need $ 4000 or more to have a comparable standard of living...

 

Essentially, if everyone, regardless of location, was paid the same, would that not mean that ultimately the person in country A would be paid 4 times as much as the person in country B?

Is that fair?

 


What does fairness have to do with anything? Is it fair that CEOs make billions of dollars, while nurses and teachers earn a pittance by comparison? People charge what the market will pay them. I make more money than I strictly need in order to meet my cost of living; as do you, I assume. If you were to move to a country in which the cost of living was lower, would you be okay with clients assuming that they can start paying you $3/hour, because you don't "need" any more than that? 

100% Correct. 

On a side note: In the opposite way, It all trickles down to - would a fruit seller sell fruits to the poor for one-twentieth the prices just because they are poor? I dont think so!!


Christine A wrote:

Petra R wrote:

 

Is that fair?

 


What does fairness have to do with anything? I


You saw me mentioning "playing devil's advocate" at the very top, right?

 


Christine A wrote:

If you were to move to a country in which the cost of living was lower, would you be okay with clients assuming that they can start paying you $3/hour, because you don't "need" any more than that? 

I have done exactly that. (Moved from the UK to the South of Italy) and no, I haven't lowered my rates. 

 

Bottom line: Upwork won't stop showing clients the location of freelancers (or clients) - which saves both parties lots of time.

There you go! Now we are talkling.

In a simpler way, all I am saying is that all Upworkers need to be treated equally by the clients irrespective of their origin.

This is a platform where people come to give services based on their skills and not origin. Therefore, (in reply to your perspective) a client should not be calculating how much is the living costs etc. of a worker, instead they should only be focused on the value they get for the money spent. 

Having said, Clients in general are already using UpWork to pay lower than their local rates, which is somewhat alright as it should be a win-win situation for both the client and worker. For example, a project manager living and working in US may be paid $70 - $90/hourly for an office job based on his expertise. A client hiring from an online platform like UpWork etc. may hire a project manager for $20-$35 hourly, there he has already got the benefit of more value for money(plus there is no office rent, bills, bonuses, insurances etc.). But then when the same client(not ALL) comes to UpWork and finds someone from Third world countries they want the lowest range like something between $8 -$13 for the same PM. I have witnessed the same thing in case of web designers, developers and writers. (Therefore when the hourly rates drop like this based on origin, then it seems unfair, because it doesn't stay a fair game for the workers.)

In the past decade or more, Upwork has become a success because of the fact that workers were being hired based on their skills and not on their living conditions, expenses etc. back home.

This is the type of prejudice that goes on in normal office jobs; for example if a guy seems rich from clothes, car keys and mobile then he would be offered a lot more than a person who seemed average/low maintenance from all aspects and ends up getting hired at a lower rate, even if he was way more skilled.

Many people who faced or knew about such type of issues in our region found solace in online platforms as their expertise and expereince was all that was being noticed. 
The good thing being that people found online job platforms far from these type of materialism and judgementalism games. Online platforms are much purer and better in terms of hiring the rightfully skilled worker for your project, and that it is.

"it also has to do with cultural differences,"
 
I am not sure how cultural differences can impact a job but may be in some specific case it might, so agreeing on this, for that UpWork already has an option for the clients to select specific regions for hiring. I have no issues with that, as when a client specifically specifies then they must be having their own internal reasons. But I have an issue with those clients who do not make an effort to specify the region they are interested in and leave it open to worldwide and later when everyone ends up applying, spending connects, investing time to write proposals; then I have analyzed closely, they end up hiring from their own country etc. (and when this happens often then seems like they don't even notice/view profiles from other regions.)

"with the way people communicate and their ways of doing business.  And timezones, too."

Check main post solution #3 - if a client reads the job proposal and UpWork profile intently then they will know in a few seonds about the level of communication. Ways of doing business can be seen from previous clients' feedback. And for timezones, as I said, a client can just add that to the proposal and no UpWorker would ever apply or waste connects on something that he/she isn't up for.

Thank you for taking out the time to read through.

 
First of all everyone needs to understand that my post is not just about you(some individual and his business ethics), me and neither about ALL of the clients on UpWork.

It is notable that I used the word "Most clients" therefore of course I do not mean to say that ALL clients are discriminating. But yes my post's point #3 is about those specific clients who do those things. All I want is the following: (as already mentioned in the main post's solution #3 as well)

-In case a client ends up paying a lower hourly rate to a person ready to work in any of the US timezones (PST, MST, CST, EST), with native accent, highly educated and has expertise/enough experience required for a specific job then it becomes discrimation when the same client either hires;
 1) a US citizen for double or triple the hourly rate at the same time they have hired someone from an Asian country for a very low rate,

2) Or the client just moves forward with hiring someone from US and doesnt even consider the applicant from other parts of the world even though as I mentioned above there are great possibilities and there are (I am sure) of having extremely intelligent and experienced professionals on Upwork from other countries.

"If I were to hire a project manager offshore; the first requirement would be, they are available during my U.S. CST business hours.  Always.  Upon request.  Not my problem if that is 3am in the morning as a simple example. None I have interviewed agreed to this.  Would you?"


-Here again, you are taking my post personally and only analyzing it based on what you do, did and experienced. 

 

-If you ask me, yes I have worked a continuous 5 years full time Job as the Project Manager/virtual Assistant for a US based company. And unbelievably I was available for work during 2 timezones and even 3 timezones when some website development projects were nearing deadlines. So, I have worked with a client in US, managed teams in India as well as developers in Australia on the same job contract. 

All these years I never noticed the issues with UpWork job application system etc. as I wasn't in to applying for long term full-time jobs. But these days as I have started working my way into sending proposals and am keenly looking for a job, I have found all the issues mentioned in my main post quite disturbing and hurdles in finding an appropriate job on UpWork.

Therefore, please be corrected that there was no such thing as "shooting off cannon shots indicating an entire group " as once again, I said MOST and was sharing my recent experience with clients.

Do review my 3-Solution: Paragraph again from the main post as if a majority of clients really aren't discrimating based on origin then no one would have a problem moving forward with the changes I have suggested as following my tips will only benefit the clients to get better and much more efficient UpWorkers for their Jobs.


Saeeda Sarwat N wrote:


-In case a client ends up paying a lower hourly rate to a person ready to work in any of the US timezones (PST, MST, CST, EST), with native accent, highly educated and has expertise/enough experience required for a specific job then it becomes discrimation when the same client either hires;
 1) a US citizen for double or triple the hourly rate at the same time they have hired someone from an Asian country for a very low rate,


 

One thing you are obviously not considering here is that hiring is based on BIDDING. In other words, the freelancer tells the client how much he/she will be charging. If a client receives bids from two different freelancers who look promising and hires them both at the hourly rate they requested, it can hardly be considered "discriminatory" that one of them quoted a lower rate.

 

But, there is something else in play here, too. You may not like it, but it's a fact. I have hired hundreds of freelancers across the past roughly 15 years, in the U.S., India, Pakistan, Serbia and the Phillippines. While many of the non-U.S. freelancers have done a good job, every single one of them has taken approximately 3 times as long to complete the work as U.S. freelancers doing the same work. 

 

I do not say this as a criticism. It may in part be due to a language barrier that means they have to take more care with instructions and other aspects of the work. Similarly, there may be cultural norms that make it quicker and easier for US freelancers to recognize what is needed. But, whatever the reason, it ALWAYS takes a lot longer.

 

If I'm paying a fixed price, I'm happy to pay the same rate no matter where in the world someone is located if that's what they bid. In fact, sometimes I pay more than the bid because I don't like to see freelancers sell themselves short. But, it would make no sense for a client to pay two people the same hourly rate to complete the same job when one person averages 4 hours to complete the task and the other averages 12 hours to do the same work. Not only would it be very bad business to pay $240 for a job that could be completed at high quality by a U.S. freelancer for $80, but it would reward the slower freelancer over the one who gave quick turnaround in addition to quality work. 

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. I couldn't agree more. Yes, no one should ever have to pay 3 times than the required.

But having said, as much as I respect your years of experience I would like to tell something about me. In all these years I have never used even an extra minute while working on the UpWork if it wasn't required. And in addition to that I also used to design different processes and strategies to get things done faster as that is how I like it. Processes to be automated, functional, efficient and delivering quality within a budget.

That's just me or maybe there are many more too but unfortunately you never came across such understanding level of tasks and honesty from workers.


there's no prefect site for online work. with that said - I consider myself lucky - I have flexible hours, I can work in my pajamas (there's no dress code here, lol), I don't spend hours stuck in traffic to get to / from work...so...all is good 😉 one thing upwork could fix is...is there a way to prevent clients from drastically changing budgets half an hour after the job is posted? In the past few months I applied to several jobs that mysteriously went from $1000 to $150, from $300 to $50, from $500 to $100. I mean I know clients sometimes have no clue how much the project will cost, but - I spent 6 connects applying to $1000 job which after half an hour turned out to be $150 (full branding work). If it was originally posted at $150, I wouldn't have applied to it. Maybe to give the client an option to lower the budget for $25% max? I don't know if that's feasible. It's both about connects and time spent writing the proposal...


Sanja D wrote:

one thing upwork could fix is...is there a way to prevent clients from drastically changing budgets half an hour after the job is posted?

1- Ideally clients should discuss the rate changes before making rate changes to the contract. But in case it happens within a timeframe that you havent actually working for them on any task or havent charged any $ yet then you can surely just inform the client and end the contract. Contracts ended without earning any money do not show up in the profile and neither are both parties able to give feedback/reviews.

-But in case you have received some payment while working then you have to ensure to refund all the earned amount to the client, if you wish to end the contract and not receive any negative feedback from them.

-And the best should be to inform the customer support about what you have been through several times. Clients should abide by the rates which they hired you at.

-Yes, there seems to be confusion about fixed price proposals for client and workers. Sometimes client is giving a budget of $1000 for an entire project which may take a month or 6 months. It is for us to discuss all these aspects upfront before accepting the contract. Plus the $1000 moving to $150 might not be the reduced rate, but might have been the first milestone for your task. As fixed price jobs have milestones and the total amount is paid as we submit our work in parts and get review/approval to receive the first payment and then move to the next milestone payment.

Try hourly jobs, they are much better in many ways.

 

alexandernovikov
Community Member

Seriously, this is not racism. Yes some people are racist, but this isn't the main issue, main issue is that it is really so, so much easier and more productive to work with someone from your own country and culture. Even American working with a German with perfect English will already feel a lot worse than working with his fellow American - because of time zones difference, and cultural difference (German culture of thoroughness and diligence, which takes a lot of time, effort and meetings to get anything done, as opposed to American "just do it" culture of "moving fast and breaking things"). Let alone with a Russian like me, let alone a Pakistani. It has nothing to do with racism.

 

Was it not the case, no one from first world countries would work on Upwork because no one would pay their fair rates.

Yeah, I am pretty sure "racism" doesn't have much to do with it or I definitely wouldn't be hired as much as I have on Upwork. Also, take into consideration that some people may want to support people from their own countries. Unemployment and underemployment are not just limited to certain areas of the world. There are some people that opt for veterans only and that doesn't bother me one bit. If a person doesn't want to hire you for whatever reason, why would you want to work with them? If a person doesn't want to pay your asking price, move on to the next potential client. Focus on continuing to present your best on Upwork and things will be fine. 

Thanks, feeling much focused and better. Awesome community.

2a05aa63
Community Member

> 3-Racism from Clients: Similarly take an example of a Project Manager, if hired from Pakistan etc. countries then a client is only willing to pay ranging between $3 - $10. But I have witnessed clients paying even $50/hour to a project manager who was residing in USA with similar skills but less years of online experience.

There are few reasons why third-world countries are usually paid less:
1) They agree to work for less. No one is forcing you to accept a low paid job. If no one would agree to work for 10$, the clients would either leave or raise their budget.
2) The quality of their service. If something is of good quality and good price, it will sell out quickly. So raising the price is natural. If you cant get a higher paid job, maybe your skills are not there yet. Costumer service in the US is much better than in third-world countries. So an average US freelancer will be better with people than the average third-world freelancer.
3) Communication. Knowing English words isn't enough. The further away, the more cultural difference there is, and it is much harder to understand each other. Therefore, hiring someone who is near, means less time wasted on explaining things.

To be honest, most of the time, the more expensive things are, the better they are (unless it's a scam). The most a freelancer charges, the better they are at their work. If they get jobs at that price, maybe they are worth it, no? And the same in reverse. 

-----

> Clients should not be able to view the residing countries of UpWorkers rather they should only be able to view skills, job experience and only those aspects which really matter when the job contract will actually start. 


What if, instead of trying to change the game so you could benefit - you'd learn, adapt and improve so the game will work for you? I mean, if there were no successful freelancers here, sure, the system is bad...but there are a lot of people that are happy with the platform... Maybe it's time to stop whining about things, and start improving yourself as much as you can? That actually the only variable you control.

At the end of the day, clients don't care about the location, but having the job done well. It's just that the generally, certain people from certain countries don't provide the required quality compared to other people worldwide. That's the only reason why someone is paid less than someone else.

petra_r
Community Member


Viacheslav K wrote:

Maybe it's time to stop whining about things, and start improving yourself as much as you can? That actually the only variable you control.


THAT! 
Perfectly said.

Thank you for this awesome reply. I couldn't agree more with what you have explained in the best possible way. This reply will surely help me slow down my thinking about the current issues with the system and start looking at the more positive aspects. There was something in your words(very nicely put) that, I feel I can start appreciating those clients who have an eye for skill and performance.

I should just forget about the other types of clients. As I guess I am the only one pointing out towards the 3 issues and modifications I suggested for UpWork's system. Seems like no one has any of these issues nor does anyone wants the changes I have suggested. 

Another thing:
"1) They agree to work for less. No one is forcing you to accept a low paid job. If no one would agree to work for 10$, the clients would either leave or raise their budget."
"The most a freelancer charges, the better they are at their work."

This is my actual concern: If freelancers keep charging less to get the jobs then they will always be thought of as someone "less than better/best". Therefore, when freelancers dont get hired for a long time, not getting any inteview calls etc. then they are forced to cut back on their rates which happens in specific origins. 

Due to poor economic conditions, recession etc. people feel happy when they get a job online. No one would take stand and stop bidding for less. (and rightly so!)
_____

A separate issue I feel is that when I started working on UpWork 6 years back, I noticed that its always helpful start off with small jobs even if its lower rate and get good reviews as that is what matters the most. Then I landed a full-time job, which was great. During these years I had an understanding that if I get enough experience working online with international teams and clients in my specific area then for future jobs I may get a chance slowly raise my hourly rate. But that doesnt seem to be happening even though I have put my soul all the work I have ever done. 

So should I conclude (just for myself/thinking cycle) that there is no chance of get a good hourly rate like freelancers from US, UK etc. as freelancers from our origin will never stop bidding for less and the clients hiring for wokers online from here will mostly intent to hire for less?

I agree 100% that I should definitely try to improve my skills to a further level, try to offer my services with a much higher level of professinalism and hopefully the good days will come back again. 



Saeeda Sarwat N wrote:


This is my actual concern: If freelancers keep charging less to get the jobs then they will always be thought of as someone "less than better/best". Therefore, when freelancers dont get hired for a long time, not getting any inteview calls etc. then they are forced to cut back on their rates which happens in specific origins. 


I don't think you understand how economic incentives work. If someone is good, their skills will be in demand. If they are in demand, they will be swamped with work. If they are swamped with work, they will raise their prices. It's a simple labour wage rule; more skilled labour commands higher wages.

The best freelancers never charge low prices no matter where they live (given enough time).

Saeeda Sarwat N, if you want a high paid job, you need to stop working low paid ones. A client will never pay you more than +10-20% compared to your previous jobs. When I started, I charged 5$ per hour, and I was increasing it each few month after a good contract. I was Top-Rated from the start, and I'm increased it 10 times now. But I never took a job lower than my profile rate. I had to say no to many jobs even if it was few bucks lower, that's the price you pay to hold integrity to your price. Also, It's kind of unfair to the current clients that pay you more...

I did take some smaller fixed priced projects when I was in need of a job, but never hourly.

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