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renata101
Community Member

Do we really need another algorithm for this?

I got a message this morning telling me I hadn't contacted one of my clients (the last message I received from the client was one sent on Christmas Eve to let me know that he wanted to resume the project I'm working on in the New Year):

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

Description of the edited screen shot. The message from Trust and Safety came through with links to support tickets. The initial message started with "We are contacting you in relation to your ongoing job with (client)...." it went on to inform me that I hadn't contacted the client in "a few days" (in my case, the last communication was December 24th).  It goes on to say that "(client) is counting on you to complete this project..."

When I contacted the client, he said he hadn't initiated a ticket with UpWork. I had to ask the Trust & Safety agent twice whether the ticket was initiated by my client before I got a response stating that the client had not, in fact, contacted them. 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

Description of edited screen shot: T&S agent admits after my second email to him asking the same question that the client did not, in fact initiate a ticket. The agent goes on to explain that this the message was sent as the result of an algorithm that tests "unanswered questions from clients that are left for a few days" and that this has been designed to "maximize positive outcomes for the clients & high job success scores for the freelancer."

Do we really need an algorithm for this? 

28 REPLIES 28
petra_r
Community Member


Renata S wrote:

I got a message this morning telling me I hadn't contacted one of my clients (the last message I received from the client was one sent on Christmas Eve to let me know that he wanted to resume the project I'm working on in the New Year):

...


Do we really need an algorithm for this? 


No.

No, we do not. That's outrageous.


One more reason to take communication out of Upwork immediately  upon hiring. The potential for misunderstandings and bad blood caused by this kind of ***bleeping bleep*** is very high indeed.

 

m_terrazas
Community Member

It really seems me quite intrusive.

 


Maria T wrote:

It really seems me quite intrusive.

 


As does removing the screenshots from my post. I took out the identifying information about both the client and the support agent so I'm not sure why I can't post these.

 


Renata S wrote:

Maria T wrote:

It really seems me quite intrusive.

 


As does removing the screenshots from my post. I took out the identifying information about both the client and the support agent so I'm not sure why I can't post these.

 


Why have the screenshots been deleted?
There was no confidential information.
Without those images nobody will know what Renata is talking about!
Or is that really what they want?
Mods?


Maria T wrote:

Renata S wrote:

Maria T wrote:

It really seems me quite intrusive.

 


As does removing the screenshots from my post. I took out the identifying information about both the client and the support agent so I'm not sure why I can't post these.

 


Why have the screenshots been deleted?
There was no confidential information.
Without those images nobody will know what Renata is talking about!
Or is that really what they want?
Mods?



Maybe someone can answer that for me? If I took out any identifying information, why can't I post the messages I got from UpWork Trust and Safety? 

versailles
Community Member

Breathing down their necks is what some people run away from when they decide to go into freelancing. This is breathing down their necks.

 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 

Thank you.

 

Edited to add: screenshots have been removed from the original post as "posting email content, chat transcripts or other private communication" is against the Community Guidelines and screenshots unfortunately included email content.

~ Valeria
Upwork


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 

Thank you.


Is it possible to be taken off the list for testing any of these new features? Or to request only those I consider well thought out? 

Also, even if you are testing the feature, I'm not sure why I can't post the screenshots of the messages since I took some time to remove any identifying information. 

Or is it actually UpWork's intention that freelancers should believe that their clients are initiating support tickets about the quality of their communication as determined by the algorithm? That was my first thought this morning and I didn't understand why my client might choose to do this instead of simply sending a second message if he thought I had missed the first one. 


Renata S wrote:

Also, even if you are testing the feature, I'm not sure why I can't post the screenshots of the messages since I took some time to remove any identifying information. 

 

The consistent appearance since I've been on Upwork (about three years) is that it is very, very important to the company that freelancers not share information with one another in any meaningful way. By prohibiting any reposting of messages and information, even those that contain no confidential information, they make it difficult or impossible for freelancers to get on the same page about..well, anything that might encourage a large number of people to push back on the same issue or for a freelancer or client in the forums to meaningfully advise a user whose problem is with Upwork rather than with a client or freelancer

 

Of course, I'm not a mind reader. That's just the impression I've gotten participating in the forums these past few years.


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 

Thank you.

 

Edited to add: screenshots have been removed from the original post as "posting email content, chat transcripts or other private communication" is against the Community Guidelines and screenshots unfortunately included email content.


Valeria, since the screenshots cannot be shown, can you explain exactly what this new "test without warning" consists of?


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 


Both the wording and the intent are wrong. From the message one can't tell if the client requested Upwork to send the message and client/provider communication is none of UW's business.

 

 

 

 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 


It seems like a rather questionable decision to start testing this during the holidays. Most of my clients specifically told me that they would be closed until 6 January, so there's no reason for me to be messaging them this week.

 

If you're looking for some tests to do, why not test some ways to keep all the scamming freelancers and fraudulent clients out of the marketplace?

 


Christine A wrote:

Valeria K wrote:

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 


It seems like a rather questionable decision to start testing this during the holidays. Most of my clients specifically told me that they would be closed until 6 January, so there's no reason for me to be messaging them this week.

 

If you're looking for some tests to do, why not test some ways to keep all the scamming freelancers and fraudulent clients out of the marketplace?

 


+ 1000


Christine A wrote:


If you're looking for some tests to do, why not test some ways to keep all the scamming freelancers and fraudulent clients out of the marketplace?

 


Yes, 100% agree. However, I feel UW takes substantial measures to smoke out scamming freelancers, with the JSS system, client feedback shown on their profile, identity verification (or whatever its called), and much more. UW seems to do quite a bit less to keep fradulent clients off Upwork, and this is where I wish they could do some testing. If you really stop and think about it, keeping fradulent clients off the platform is where Upwork can increase profitability the most. 


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 

Thank you.

 

Edited to add: screenshots have been removed from the original post as "posting email content, chat transcripts or other private communication" is against the Community Guidelines and screenshots unfortunately included email content.


I feel that the wording of the initial Trust & Safety message I received is vital to communicating the source of the issue. Also, it's important to note that this message was sent to me with an indication that I was receiving the notification as the result of a support ticket.

That's the outrageous aspect of the message that Petra caught. Why didn't anyone at UpWork notice this?  

And can you give me a direct address of someone at UpWork I can contact to communicate just what a bad idea I feel it is to send freelancers messages like this, let alone to test it out on one without their knowledge? It's simply unbelievable how bad both of those ideas are. 

UNIFORMED TESTING = EPIC FAIL


Renata S wrote:

Valeria K wrote:

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 

Thank you.

 

Edited to add: screenshots have been removed from the original post as "posting email content, chat transcripts or other private communication" is against the Community Guidelines and screenshots unfortunately included email content.


I feel that the text of the initial Trust & Safety message I received is vital to communicating the source of the issue. Also, it's important to note that this message was sent to me with an indication that I was receiving the notification as the result of a support ticket.

That's the outrageous aspect of the message that Petra caught. Why didn't anyone at UpWork notice this?  

And can you give me a direct address of someone at UpWork I can contact to communicate just what a bad idea I feel it is to send freelancers messages like this, let alone to test it out on one without their knowledge? It's simply unbelievable what bad ideas both of those things are. 


_____________________

 

This is not a feature. It is intrusive and utterly unacceptable. I think Upwork wants to rid its site of professional top rated freelancers. 


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 

Thank you.

 


Professionals don't require this level of prompting.  There has been much discussion about the transition to paid connects, which I had understood is to help elevate the quality of client/freelancer relationships. This "test" is the exact opposite. If a freelancer requires a prompt (other than in extreme circumstances where there may be an emergency) by UPWORK to contact their client, this platform has bigger problems.

 

 


Valeria K wrote:

Hi Renata,

 

This is a notification we are testing to help increase positive contract outcomes. I'll certainly forward feedback you and others shared on this thread to the team that's running this test. 

 

'This is a notification we are testing to try and force communication and influence the relationship between clients and freelancers, with the hope it will lead to more work being completed and money generated.'

 

Whoever, thought of this Valeria, can you let them know that on every level, it's awful.

 

Rather that 'testing' things which may negatively impact users of the platform, would it not be a better idea to either contact people directly asking for their thoughts, or have a dedicated section on the Forum where these ideas are 'floated' to get some feedback?

 

Everyone wants the site to be successful, so why are you not using your biggest resource, its clients and freelancers, to try and help you with new initiatives?


 

Valeria - I agree with all the others posting here that this is not needed and doesn't seem to be well thought out. The potential for confusion is incredibly high.

 

If UW is going to implement a nudge like this, the email needs to be very clear that it was automatically generated without any input or request from the client so that it's not confused with an actual client request for UW to reach out to a non-responsive freelancer.

 

As an added bonus, it could include something like "ignore this" in the subject line, so we can easily filter it out.

 

 

 

 


Wes C wrote:

Valeria - I agree with all the others posting here that this is not needed and doesn't seem to be well thought out. The potential for confusion is incredibly high.

 

If UW is going to implement a nudge like this, the email needs to be very clear that it was automatically generated without any input or request from the client so that it's not confused with an actual client request for UW to reach out to a non-responsive freelancer....

 


Automated refunds initiated by Upwork are also mischaracterized as a response to a "request" by one of the contracting parties. Such practices are unconscionably dishonest.


Douglas Michael M wrote:


Automated refunds initiated by Upwork are also mischaracterized as a response to a "request" by one of the contracting parties.


They aren't (or aren't any longer) - the email explains that the client's payment method failed and hours that were not eligible for protection were reversed.

Could not be much clearer these days.

 

 

 

Thanks for the information Petra!

Is the intention to discourage people from booking ahead? I've often agreed to do a project in X weeks' time and accepted the contract. And this approach is now likely to lead to problems?


Petra R wrote:

Douglas Michael M wrote:


Automated refunds initiated by Upwork are also mischaracterized as a response to a "request" by one of the contracting parties.


They aren't (or aren't any longer) - the email explains that the client's payment method failed and hours that were not eligible for protection were reversed.

Could not be much clearer these days.

 


I was specifically referring to expiration of Upwork's holding period for escrow, which Upwork characterizes as a refund initiated by the client.

Valeria, are these "reminders" directed only to freelancers, or is Upwork also giving clients the false impression that freelancers are enlisting Upwork to harass them?

 A very good question, Tiffany.

That would really be dangerous!

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi All,

 

We appreciate the discussion and feedback shared on this thread about the contract message reminders. We can see how it could be communicated clearer that the notification isn't initiated by the client. We also recognize that slow response over the holidays is expected.


To add some context behind this feature, these messages from us are sent as a reminder that there is an unanswered message from a client that the freelancer has not yet responded to. We don't send similar reminders to clients currently. While the majority of jobs between clients and freelancers on Upwork end well, we know that there are some jobs that do not. One of the top concerns from clients is when freelancers are slow to respond or appear to have abandoned a job. We hope this helps resolve that problem. Also, please note that not replying to the reminder will not result in any negative action on your account.

~ Valeria
Upwork

May I suggest that all further messages of this sort state "this is a reminder that there is an unanswered message from a client that the freelancer has not yet responded to" vrs. the misleading quasi-threat it  currently is ...

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