Do you charge for writing detailed messages t...

dsmgdesign · ‎06-25-2019

Questions for both freelancers and the moderator:

Freelancers:

If you are on a active hourly contract with a client, do you charge for your time to write detailed messages to clients via the Upwork messenger? For example, let's say a client has made a blanket statement that they are open to new ideas. And, being someone who wants to impress the client, somewhere along the line you follow-through on this by writing out your ideas but they are lengthy because your pitching your ideas to the client, and you want them to understand the thought process behind the idea, so it ends up taking more than 10 minutes (like nearly 20 minutes). Would you charge the client for this time? Just wondering because this actually has happened to me this week and I'm on the fence about adding it to my time sheet. I typically try to keep my messages short and take no more than 2-3 minutes to write to avoid this happening, but if your pitching a couple different ideas it's kind of unavoidable.

Upwork Moderator:

Where does Upwork fall with this?

Thanks,

Dave

prestonhunter · ‎06-25-2019

re: "Upwork Moderator: Where does Upwork fall with this?"

David:

The particular question that you asked is not a question for Upwork moderators to answer.

This is a question that must be addressed by actual Upwork users.

The answer to your question is very simple:

If you have an hourly contract, then the expectation is that you log all time spent working on behalf of your client.

If there is something that you are not comfortable logging time for, then you are not required to log that time. You will not be penalized in any way for NOT logging the time you spent pitching some new ideas.

Personally, my clients expect me to log all of my time. When I discuss new ideas and concepts with them, whether via chat, email, messaging, phone, etc., they see that I am logging that time and billing them for that work.

dsmgdesign · ‎06-25-2019

Thanks, Preston. It's clear where you stand, so this is great!

Would love to hear from other freelancers as well.

And, would love to hear from the Upwork Moderator as well (Sorry, Preston, but I disagree..haha...I think it's a question they should answer as well).

florydev · ‎06-25-2019

Are you talking about an unsolicited pitch of some new line of work or are you talking about ideas to improve whatever it is you are working on?

To me, the difference is the first is marketing and there is no way I would charge the client for that. The other is about the current project and the direction I think it should go.

So, to use an example in my line of work, if the client wants a website, if the idea I was presenting was:

A mobile application - This is new work they never asked for, I would not charge them for that.
A different approach to how the website works - I would definitely charge them. I would not spend a lot of time on this kind of thing until they show interest unless you think it is critical.

As for general communication and explanation...I definitely charge for that.

petra_r · ‎06-25-2019

David S M wrote:
Freelancers:
If you are on a active hourly contract with a client, do you charge for your time to write detailed messages to clients via the Upwork messenger? For example, let's say a client has made a blanket statement that they are open to new ideas. And, being someone who wants to impress the client, somewhere along the line you follow-through on this by writing out your ideas but they are lengthy because your pitching your ideas to the client, and you want them to understand the thought process behind the idea, so it ends up taking more than 10 minutes (like nearly 20 minutes). Would you charge the client for this time

Is it something the client asked you to do, specifically? If so, I charge. If not, I don't.

David S M wrote:

Where does Upwork fall with this?

Upwork are most unlikely to have any opinion because this is strictly between you and the client. The only thing they will point out is that manual time is not protected, so no matter what anyone's "opinion" is - if the client objects to this time (and any manual time at all) you will categorically not get paid.

I am a little puzzled why you are not asking the ONLY person who can answer this for your specific case: YOUR CLIENT!

gilbert-phyllis · ‎06-25-2019

Petra R wrote:
David S M wrote:
Freelancers:
If you are on a active hourly contract with a client, do you charge for your time to write detailed messages to clients via the Upwork messenger? For example, let's say a client has made a blanket statement that they are open to new ideas. And, being someone who wants to impress the client, somewhere along the line you follow-through on this by writing out your ideas but they are lengthy because your pitching your ideas to the client, and you want them to understand the thought process behind the idea, so it ends up taking more than 10 minutes (like nearly 20 minutes). Would you charge the client for this time
Is it something the client asked you to do, specifically? If so, I charge. If not, I don't.

David S M wrote:

Where does Upwork fall with this?
Upwork are most unlikely to have any opinion because this is strictly between you and the client. The only thing they will point out is that manual time is not protected, so no matter what anyone's "opinion" is - if the client objects to this time (and any manual time at all) you will categorically not get paid.

I am a little puzzled why you are not asking the ONLY person who can answer this for your specific case: YOUR CLIENT!

Sometimes, an inexperienced client may have an inappropriate notion of what to pay for. When they love you, they'll happily pay for anything and everything. When they grow disenchanted for any reason, they'll question anything and everything. IMO it's better to decide what's what and then seek to educate/negotiate an arrangement that is a sustainable win-win. I think OP is in the process of making that determination for himself and seeking input for his own consideration.

BTW, I follow the same guiding principle Mark outlined above.

dsmgdesign · ‎06-25-2019

Petra R wrote:
Is it something the client asked you to do, specifically? If so, I charge. If not, I don't.

So, like I said, the client had made a blanket statement that he was open to new ideas about his project in general terms. He wasn't very specific...just ideas on everything and anything related to his project. So, I'm confused, would you not charge because the client wasn't specific?

I am a little puzzled why you are not asking the ONLY person who can answer this for your specific case: YOUR CLIENT!

So, I wasn't really asking anyone for an answer. I was asking what other freelancers do, and was asking what Upwork's stance was on this. I take it then from your reply what you do, or what you have done, is ask your client for permission to bill them for this. Understood, and I think that's fair.

Upwork are most unlikely to have any opinion because this is strictly between you and the client. The only thing they will point out is that manual time is not protected, so no matter what anyone's "opinion" is - if the client objects to this time (and any manual time at all) you will categorically not get paid.

Likely or not, my request was for an Upwork Moderator reply to this question. And, my request for an Upwork moderator response is still open.

petra_r · ‎06-25-2019

David S M wrote:

I take it then from your reply what you do, or what you have done, is ask your client for permission to bill them for this. Understood, and I think that's fair.

I don't "ask for permission," I communicate, discuss and manage expectations. That is likely why I've never, in all my years and near 250 contracts, had a dispute or a refund request.

dsmgdesign · ‎06-25-2019

Petra R wrote:
David S M wrote:

I take it then from your reply what you do, or what you have done, is ask your client for permission to bill them for this. Understood, and I think that's fair.
I don't "ask for permission," I communicate, discuss and manage expectations. That is likely why I've never, in all my years and near 250 contracts, had a dispute or a refund request.

oh, good, glad you clarified. I also communicate, discuss and manage expecations. Glad we agree there.

prestonhunter · ‎06-25-2019

re: "...my request for an Upwork moderator response is still open."

Okay, but the problem with that is this: Upwork moderators are simply not in the habit of weighing in with their personal opininions. They don't have the same kind of freedom that Upwork users have, because they represent Upwork as a company. So you will rarely see them deviate from Upwork ToS.

And because the question you ask is something very specific, and something not covered by Upwork ToS, it is unlikely that you will see an Upwork moderator specifically answer your question.

Moreover, they don't know the details of your particular situation.

dsmgdesign · ‎06-25-2019

Preston H wrote:
re: "...my request for an Upwork moderator response is still open."

Okay, but the problem with that is this: Upwork moderators are simply not in the habit of weighing in with their personal opininions. They don't have the same kind of freedom that Upwork users have, because they represent Upwork as a company. So you will rarely see them deviate from Upwork ToS.

And because the question you ask is something very specific, and something not covered by Upwork ToS, it is unlikely that you will see an Upwork moderator specifically answer your question.

Moreover, they dotn't know the details of your particular situation.

Wasn't looking for the moderator's personal opion. I asked them represent Upwork stance on this as a company, as you say. Not clear on how you read that I was looking for their personal opions that deviate from TOS from my original post. To clarify, that is not at all what I'm looking for.

Now with that clarified...Upwork Moderator, could you weigh in, please.

researchediting · ‎06-25-2019

David S M wrote:
Preston H wrote:
re: "...my request for an Upwork moderator response is still open."

Okay, but the problem with that is this: Upwork moderators are simply not in the habit of weighing in with their personal opininions. They don't have the same kind of freedom that Upwork users have, because they represent Upwork as a company. So you will rarely see them deviate from Upwork ToS.

And because the question you ask is something very specific, and something not covered by Upwork ToS, it is unlikely that you will see an Upwork moderator specifically answer your question.

Moreover, they dotn't know the details of your particular situation.
Wasn't looking for the moderator's personal opion. I asked them represent Upwork stance on this as a company, as you say. Not clear on how you read that I was looking for their personal opions that deviate from TOS from my original post. To clarify, that is not at all what I'm looking for.

Now with that clarified...Upwork Moderator, could you weigh in, please.

Sorry, David, you're not getting it. Upwork does not take a position on how we bill our clients, beyond the general expectation that all billings should be for actual work performed on the client's behalf and at the client's behest.

Not in the ToS. Not via the moderators. Not when there's a dispute. Nowhere. Ever.

dsmgdesign · ‎06-25-2019

Upwork Moderator:

Where does Upwork fall with this?

PS. Freelancers - Please DO NOT reply.

Thanks,

Dave

researchediting · ‎06-25-2019

David S M wrote:
Upwork Moderator:
Where does Upwork fall with this?

PS. Freelancers - Please DO NOT reply.

Thanks,
Dave

Sorry again, David, but this is the freelancer forum. You can't issue us orders—even when you say "please"—any more than your can ask the moderators to do something that's not part of their job and for which they have no corporate script.

Is there some reason you can't take the input you have received and make your own business and ethical decision?

versailles · ‎06-25-2019

David S M wrote:
Upwork Moderator:
Where does Upwork fall with this?

PS. Freelancers - Please DO NOT reply.

Thanks,
Dave

Here: Upwork Legal

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light" —William Ashbless

lysis10 · ‎06-25-2019

David, I get paid pretty well so I don't need to nickle and dime them over this stuff. Sometimes, I eat time if it's a few minutes. I'm sure it adds up but I charge enough and don't want someone to pay $20 for me to answer an email. Seems kinda extreme IMO.

But I will turn on tracker for phone call meetings because then I have to get on the phone. I suppose if there was something that required a long detailed answer for something, I might (but probably not). I don't like nickle and diming people. I don't like it myself, so I don't do it to them.

It also depends on how much money they are spending on me and their overall clinginess. 😄 If they are constantly contacting me and want meetings and huge detailed answers all the time, I would probably do it. Lots of times, if it's something stupid that I don't want to do and shouldn't be doing anyway, I start charging and they stop asking lol Like I get people that sometimes want me to do VA work. It's easy work but I don't want to do that crap, so I start charging for it and they stop asking.

eta: well, poop. I just saw his last reply saying he doesn't want FL to answers. lol friggin Upwork FLers man lol

Feel free to wait for mods to tell you what to do. You'll be dead by then so you don't have to worry.

prestonhunter · ‎06-25-2019

Kudos to Jennifer for explaining how billing can be used effectively to eliminate unwanted client behavior.

I DEFINITELY bill clients for time I spend talking to them on the phone, chatting, emailing, etc. My time is my time, whether I'm talking to them on the phone or writing new source code for them.

But to address the original poster's main concern: I don't spend time trying to "up-sell" clients or pitch things just to sell my services. If they have needs, I'll address those needs and explain ideas for solving their problems.

That is not the same thing as promoting unrelated services or up-sellling.

(By the way: In my heart, I think of Jennifer and Douglas Michael as "unofficial moderators" in the Forum. Hopefully that counts for something.)

dsmgdesign · ‎06-26-2019

Preston H wrote:

I DEFINITELY bill clients for time I spend talking to them on the phone, chatting, emailing, etc. My time is my time, whether I'm talking to them on the phone or writing new source code for them.

But to address the original poster's main concern: I don't spend time trying to "up-sell" clients or pitch things just to sell my services. If they have needs, I'll address those needs and explain ideas for solving their problems.

That is not the same thing as promoting unrelated services or up-sellling.

Hi, Preston, I agree with billing for phone meetings. Sounds like that's the consensus. Actually, my original post wasn't about upselling services or promoting unrelated services. To clarify, I'm a graphic designer, and lets say hypothetically the project is a product brochure. The client makes a very generic blanket statement "I want a freelancer who will thoroughly communicate all and any ideas they have about my product brochure". Somewhere along the lines of working on the product brochure, I have an idea on how to make something better. Knowing that the client originally said they were open to ideas, I then messaged the client and say "what do you think about doing something different on the..." I don't know...lets say the front cover, hypothetically, but it could be anything, it could be a chart that is being used in the product brochure. The client wasn't specific. They didn't say I want ideas only on the front cover or only on the chart. They just made a blanket statement...any and all ideas are welcome and appreciated. So, in addition to the idea, I also need to communicate my thought process behind the idea and how I think it addresses his needs better than it did before. This takes time to illustrate and explain...nearly 20 minutes of my time...or more.... and it fills the job description as well. If it were less than 10 minutes, like most messages are, I wouldn't charge (I agree with Jennifer there about nickel and diming). Anyway, on with the story...Client loves the idea and it's exactly what they were looking for...a freelancer to communicate all ideas, "Happy client, I have" in the words of Jedi Master Yoda. So, I really, really hope that clarifies things for everybody. I don't upsell and I certainly would never consider chiarging for it. Good Grief.

Preston, I know you would charge for this.

Anyway, Jennifer, I'm curious if this changes anything for you. If "communication of ideas" is part of the job description, would you think that should be considered that part of billing for the job as well, especially if it took 20 minutes or more to write?

lysis10 · ‎06-26-2019

David S M wrote:

Anyway, Jennifer, I'm curious if this changes anything for you. If "communication of ideas" is part of the job description, would you think that should be considered that part of billing for the job as well, especially if it took 20 minutes or more to write?

Yeah, in that case I probably would. I get people who dump a bunch of paperwork on me and I charge for reading it, so I think this is similar just a different thing you have to do that takes time.

dsmgdesign · ‎06-26-2019

Jennifer M wrote:

eta: well, poop. I just saw his last reply saying he doesn't want FL to answers. lol friggin Upwork FLers man lol

No,Jennifer. Your reply was exactly what I was looking for. It was the answer to the question that I had for freelancers which was essentially "what do you do in your business?" What I did not care to read or what was not interested in reading about was other freelancers to answer was the question I had for the Upwork moderator or give their opinion on the quesiton I had for the moderator, which was "what was Upwork's stance on this?" Looks like an Upwork moderator chimed in and gave Upwork's official recommendation, which is also perfect and also what I was looking for., I'll ignore all the freelancers who answered for the Upwork moderator, and take in to consideration what other freelancers do in their business. So, I thank you again!

ivanlutrov · ‎06-25-2019

I charge for all communication.

AveryO · ‎06-25-2019

Hi David,

You are the owner of your freelancing business. As such, it will be up to you to decide if you think it's right to bill the client for this time. What we always recommend is to communicate extensively with your client so expectations on both sides are set, and agreed upon at the onset of the contract.

~ Avery

dsmgdesign · ‎06-26-2019

Avery O wrote:
Hi David,

You are the owner of your freelancing business. As such, it will be up to you to decide if you think it's right to bill the client for this time. What we always recommend is to communicate extensively with your client so expectations on both sides are set, and agreed upon at the onset of the contract.

Hi, Avery,

Thanks for your reply. I was really hoping you would, and you did, so I'm very happy. Ok, so I'll admit. Perhaps I did not explain it well. To recap, Upwork's mantra is no free work. Free work is against the Upwork TOS. Free work is bad business for freelancers and Upwork. So I read that as "All work services provided by the freelancer on hourly contracts must be billed". However, where I think Upwork doesn't explain well is what they constitute as "work" Let's say, for example, if I use the messenger and track my message and it takes 25 minutes writing a message to one client about his project under an hourly contract. The message is all about that project, or projects, that I'm hired for. Client then questions my time. Upwork then looks at my work diary. Upwork sees screenshots of my message and the time stamps and knows how long it took to write this message. What would Upwork do? Does using the messenger constitute "work" or doesn't it?

petra_r · ‎06-26-2019

David wrote:
Free work is against the Upwork TOS. Free work is bad business for freelancers and Upwork. So I read that as "All work services provided by the freelancer on hourly contracts must be billed".

No. It does not mean that at all. Clients may not ask for free work, mainly in the context of job posting and the selection process. Freelancers are free to do exactly as they please, especially in the context of an existing contract.

Sometimes (most of the time) just a modicum of common sense is all that is needed.

Let's say, for example, if I use the messenger and track my message and it takes 25 minutes writing a message to one client about his project under an hourly contract. The message is all about that project, or projects, that I'm hired for. Client then questions my time. Upwork then looks at my work diary. Upwork sees screenshots of my message and the time stamps and knows how long it took to write this message. What would Upwork do? Does using the messenger constitute "work" or doesn't it?

Client says "I did not ask him to spend 30 minutes writing an unsolicited proposal"

The second a client disputes you have already lost, whether you "win" 30 minutes time or not. You lost the client.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎06-26-2019

Petra R wrote:
David S M wrote:
Free work is against the Upwork TOS. Free work is bad business for freelancers and Upwork. So I read that as "All work services provided by the freelancer on hourly contracts must be billed".
No. It does not mean that at all. Clients may not ask for free work, mainly in the context of job posting and the selection process. Freelancers are free to do exactly as they please, especially in the context of an existing contract.

Sometimes (most of the time) just a modicum of common sense is all that is needed.

Careful! You are going to get chastised for not being a moderator!

petra_r · ‎06-26-2019

Phyllis G wrote:
Sometimes (most of the time) just a modicum of common sense is all that is needed.
Careful! You are going to get chastised for not being a moderator!

I can't believe the whole thing. Why not just communicate with the client rather than making a song and dance over what would happen if he logged half an hour writing an unsolicited proposal to the client and ended up with a dispute.

Why not use the brain, clear it with the client, so there won't be a dispute in the first place. I still think logging time on something a client did not specifically ask for is taking liberties at best, downright dishonest at worst. The client did not ask for it. Being "open to suggestion" does not mean "Please take $$$ of my money to pitch me your ideas."

What's the big deal of clarifying whether the client wants the OP to work on a plan in the context of the contract. The client can say "Yes" or "No."

chris_bannu · ‎06-26-2019

From my point of view, if it's not work time, then it's spare time, and if it's spare time, I choose to spend it different from writing ideas to clients 🙂 I do log time for just about anything regarding the work. I don't log time when the client presents me the project or when I ask initial questions. I also don't log time when I present the progress, considering that that doesn't happen often and doesn't take long. I have a weird feeling about logging time when I speak to the client, sometimes the conversation goes beyond the scope of the work and it gets personal/friendly and it's quite enjoyable, I don't feel comfortable logging time for that 🙂 But if it's strictly work related, time should be logged imo. I do log time for providing instructions, checking what developers do, explaining, giving ideas, thinking about ideas etc. Like I mentioned above, time is either work time, or spare time, it's as simple as that 🙂

dsmgdesign · ‎06-26-2019

Cristian B wrote:
From my point of view, if it's not work time, then it's spare time, and if it's spare time, I choose to spend it different from writing ideas to clients 🙂 I do log time for just about anything regarding the work. I don't log time when the client presents me the project or when I ask initial questions. I also don't log time when I present the progress, considering that that doesn't happen often and doesn't take long. I have a weird feeling about logging time when I speak to the client, sometimes the conversation goes beyond the scope of the work and it gets personal/friendly and it's quite enjoyable, I don't feel comfortable logging time for that 🙂 But if it's strictly work related, time should be logged imo. I do log time for providing instructions, checking what developers do, explaining, giving ideas, thinking about ideas etc. Like I mentioned above, time is either work time, or spare time, it's as simple as that 🙂

Thanks, Cristian. All good things to think about.

stephjogonzales · ‎06-26-2019

Hi David,

I'll be short and sweet. Log the time.

The client is paying for not just the hands on the keyboard work but also your experience and strategy.

I spent close to 2 decades in the infomercial world. My experiences in selling direct to customers are valid in any other copywriting business. If the client asks for ideas, he/she is asking for those based on my experience and the data I've gathered over the years.

Ideas are powerful. Get paid for them.

For all, I see this as a question of philosophy, not permission.

Do you charge for writing detailed messages to pitch ideas on hourly contract?