Educate Clients Better About What Reasonable ...

jbmaverick · ‎08-28-2021

I think it would be helpful if Upwork could more effectively communicate to clients what reasonable rates of pay are and how to determine them - such as calculating and analyzing proposed compensation from all angles: fixed price, hourly, and (if applicable) per word. A problem I often see is clients quoting a fixed price that may sound reasonable to them when they just sort of pluck a number out of the air - but when you calculate the work requested on an alternate basis, such as "per word", it turns out they're only offering about ONE CENT per word - the absolute LOWEST pay rate they could offer someone - yet they're looking for "expert" help.

In such situations, I'm not shy about pointing out to the client, "You noted that you're looking for expert assistance - but when you calculate the work you're requesting on a per word basis, the compensation you're offering is barely even one cent per word - with Upwork's 20% fee, it's LESS THAN a penny a word - next to zero - and, well, that's simply nowhere near expert level compensation."

If a client has limited experience outsourcing work, then figuring out what's reasonable pay and what's not can be quite a challenge. Therefore, I think it might help if Upwork offered more direction for clients on the subject.

JB

jbmaverick · ‎08-28-2021

Clients also often fail to factor in Upwork's cut of the freelancer's pay - so, when negotiating, I'll usually point out something like, "If you're paying $25 an hour, I'm actually only GETTING $20 an hour."

Now, clients with sensitive egos may get upset when you point out, "Hey, the compensation you're offering doesn't match up with the level of assistance (expert) that you want."
But more often than not, I've had clients thank me for pointing out stuff like, "You know, that's only about two cents per word", and freely admit that they simply hadn't thought about it from that angle. And I think that's usually the case - that they just haven't really thought through if the pay rate they're offering is commensurate with the work they want done. Thus, my suggestion that Upwork perhaps give clients a bit more guidance on determining reasonable compensation to offer.

petra_r · ‎08-28-2021

Johnathan M wrote:
Clients also often fail to factor in Upwork's cut of the freelancer's pay

No, clients don't. YOU do... Clients don't and shouldn't care. You set your price. YOU set your rate. Factor the fee in. Be done with it.

Johnathan M wrote:
I'll usually point out something like, "If you're paying $25 an hour, I'm actually only GETTING $20 an hour."

How inappropriate. I've never in over 300 contracts mentioned fees, because they are my business expense and nothing to do with the client.. I simply set my rate or price and the client can take it or leave it. I no more mention the fee than I mention the cost of my electricity, the price of my computer, internet, or coffee. because that just wouldn't be professional, would it?

petra_r · ‎08-28-2021

Johnathan M wrote:
I think it would be helpful if Upwork could more effectively communicate to clients what reasonable rates of pay are and how to determine them

How in the world would Upwork know what's "a reasonable" rate for literally thousands of different scenarios across all their categories with all the different factors such as difficulty, freelancer demographic etc etc?

Upwork already show clients an hourly rate range when the client posts a job post, which is basically just based on what is typically paid.

There is simply no way for Upwork to give clients guidance when it comes to most jobs. Like a website can cost $100 or $10.000. Or more

I'd rather Upwork stays as far away as possible from clients when it comes to pricing and leaves that up to the professionals who know how to properly price their services (including the fees, obviously).

Because we know what we're talking about (well, hopefully...)

It's not Upwork's job. It's ours. Bid your rate, or walk away and bid on something else. I've been hired at more than 9 times the posted budget. I really don't need Upwork to insert itself into a crucial part of my negotiations (pricing).

hglewis · ‎08-28-2021

Hello Johnathan,

Upwork's job is not to tell a freelancer what to charge or what a client must pay.

They provide an open marketplace platform where clients, merchants, business owners, and freelancers like you and me can meet. Through the proposal process, present your expertise, pricing, and opinion privately to the client.

Plus, the platform is worldwide, and in some markets, ONE CENT a word IS top pay, and in another market, it's bottom of the barrel wages.

For instance, a writer in the US believes $1 a word is fair and reasonable. A writer in Vietnam sees that $0.50 a word is fair and reasonable. Yet again, another writer in India sees that $0.05 a word is fair and reasonable.

Who is right? They all are because each sees their rate as fair and reasonable.

Are there unscrupulous clients? You bet there are.

But on the other hand, there are business savvy clients that test the waters here. If they can have a writer provide that same service at half or a third of the cost, they'll give it a try.

If they like the results, they'll see who else is willing to take less. And as each of us studies the platform, these clients build a well of talent getting the pay they want. And the client getting the product or service they want at a price they want to pay.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎08-28-2021

Reasonable rate of pay is what a client and FL decide together is reasonable. it would be inappropriate and counterproductive for UW to intervene in that conversation or make any gestures, explicit or implicit, that might create or influence expectations about pricing.

wescowley · ‎08-28-2021

Johnathan M wrote:
I think it would be helpful if Upwork could more effectively communicate to clients what reasonable rates of pay are and how to determine them - such as calculating and analyzing proposed compensation from all angles: fixed price, hourly, and (if applicable) per word.

No, Upwork is already more involved in suggesting rates than they should be. Setting rates and managing client expectations is the freelancers' job and no one else's.

Upwork has no idea what I do and how it compares to others in the same field, so if they go setting an expectation in the client's mind that a job is worth $X and my price comes in at $X*2 (or more), that makes my life a lot harder because instead of just dealing with the client's assumptions, I'm dealing their assumptions reinforced by a voice of (presumed) authority.

You're absolutely right that many clients don't know how to price freelancers' work, but then, that's not their job either. It's the freelancers'.

My approach, which seems to work quite well, is to give my price and explain what it covers and what it doesn't. It doesn't matter to me whether my quote is higher or lower than the budget on the client's job post because, as you pointed out, that's often at best a swag. If the client can't or doesn't want to meet my rate, that's fine. I wish them luck and tell them the door's open. I don't negotiate on cost, only on scope.

And no, I don't mention Upwork's fee. That's totally inappropriate. Just like in the other thread, that's my expense to deal with just like all the other expenses. If I were interviewing someone for a job and they brought that up as a negotiating tactic, that would likely be the end of the interview.

roberty1y · ‎08-28-2021

I agree with Petra. As for clients who pay one cent a word, ignore them and leave them to their own devices. They'll soon find out what kind of quality they'll get at that price.

lysis10 · ‎08-28-2021

Who cares what clients offer? It doesn't matter.

prestonhunter · ‎08-28-2021

This is an interesting thread.

I appreciate the perspectives of everybody who has posted here.

But the truth of the matter is this:

In a very real sense, original poster Jonathan already "won this debate."

As Petra and Wes alluded to... Upwork already has extended a massive effort to educate clients better about what reasonable pay rates are - whether any of us like it or not.

I hired freelancers last week. I hired freelancers yesterday. As a client, I can assure you that I was faced with a lot of education about what reasonable pay rates are. Every time I posted an hourly job, Upwork asked about job categories and then based on the categories and key words I chose, Upwork presented a pay range as a DEFAULT.

This wasn't something I had to look for or click a special button to see. This was very much in my face. I had to manually adjust things to change the pay range or open it up to a broader pay range.

wescowley · ‎08-28-2021

Preston H wrote:

But the truth of the matter is this:
In a very real sense, original poster Jonathan already "won this debate."

If I'd known this was a debate, I would have worn a tie.

hglewis · ‎08-29-2021

A debate?

Naw!

Just another soapbox rant opera...

Educate Clients Better About What Reasonable Pay Rates Are