re: "I had an emotional reaction to the price breakdown being put in my face like that"
Totally understandable. Thank you for your explanation.
I think you now realize you should just ignore that price breakdown. Those are just text strings that are not tied into how the system functions in any meaningful way.
I didn't say that work from foreigners was inferior whatsoever - I said that foreigners who do an expert level job deserve the same pay rates as I do, and that is true, but equally there are americans who deserve fair wages as well and not all of them are bad, and many of them have a high quality of work and response quickly to their clients.
I feel like everyone is just discussing race for some reason while instead they should be focused more on "expert contractors" rathey than where the person is from. There are many Indians, for example, that deserve more even though they live where they are.
I don't feel it is an elitist view that I live in a place where it is more expensive for me to live and I need more money to survive because that isn't something I can really control too much, and my view is not about that really though it is an influence on what I charge, it is more about the fact that PEOPLE with expert services who prove themselves to be experts should be paid fair wages.Perhaps you do survive by paying less, but that doesn't mean it is fair. Expert services cost money and they take time for people to do. Freelancers don't get insurances plans and we also have to pay taxes and other expenses.
I DO deserve the money I make and I work HARD for the money I make. I satisfy every client I work for all of the time and I always make sure they are happy in the end. I have worked for fortune 500 companies to small businesses, and I know that prices range sometimes and my rates vary, but again, there is no reason to pay next to nothing for work even if you are a small business. The services provided will make your business money in the end and is an investment to it, and that is how a business works.
The prices I have seen on Upworks are so low that I can't see any professional contractor working for them. $12/hr is pretty low, but it isn't horrible. I am talking more about the $5 fixed rates and $1-3/hr. I feel like the minimums here should be more like they are on elance at the very least, though it is a bit lower than it should be there too.
Elance's platform was never too bad in my thoughts. There are jobs there for contractors whom are starting out, and people who are expert levels with excellent feedback like myself. I like that they have a 500-1000, 1000-5000, and 10,000+ range to attract clients who need excellent quality and want to pay those rates (like fortune 500 companies). Those jobs have helped me with being a full time freelancers, and these people know they are hiring someone good from reading their proposals and talking with them, and seeing the work they have done, and ensuring it is in line with what they need. I have done many of these jobs, and I always come out on top of them. There are clients who have larger businesses who want to pay expert level rates, and I have experienced that better on elance than I have here.
I would love to lower your payroll taxes, insurance costs, and corporate filing fees, but unfortuately I have no control over those things and I wish I did. I didn't say you were cheap, but $12/hr is a low rate like you said, and if you look through Upworks, you will see how even lower rates are for people who are real experts.
Regarding one figure that has been batted around a bit in this thread:
$12 per hour is NOT a "low rate."
MANY contractors, including contractors living in the United States and Europe, would be happy to work for $12.00 per hour.
I have worked for $12.00 per hour or less and have been happy and proud to do so. Some of my fixed-rate jobs have worked out to less than $12 per hour for me, even in the past year. Even today, if the right job for it caught my interest, I would work for $12 per hour on an hourly contract.
If you are hiring an expert in SOME fields, then $12.00 per hour WOULD INDEED be a low rate. You might want to stay clear from a rate that low for SOME JOBS.
But I reject the notion that $12.00 per hour is always a "low rate."
Amanda, I very much respect your comments, which are thoughtful and well spoken.
But, respectfully, you used word and concepts which may be important to you personally, but which simply have no place in calculations and considerations done by a client here on Upwork:
"deserve fair wages"
"more expensive for me to live"
"I need more money to survive"
"should be paid fair wages"
"doesn't mean it is fair"
"we also have to pay taxes and other expenses"
I understand that you were speaking about things from a personal perspective and you were not necessarily saying that a client should consider these things. Nevertheless, these comments struck me as incongruous in a discussion about rates, because they should have nothing to do with how a client chooses contractors.
If a client can pay $500 to have Project X completed by contractor "Jane Smith," living in a remote part of Arizona or a city in India...
OR the client can pay $1000 to have Project X completed by "Betty Jones", who lives in Manhattan or an upscale gated community in Manilla, for whom it is "more expensive to live"...
and the completed project will be of the same quality, then I would advise the client to save $500 and pay the less expensive contractor.
Sorry, but you're wrong yet again. Nothing is ever going to be the SAME QUALITY. You're living in a dream world, and you get exactly what you pay for.
Experts in their field are EXPERTS. There are too many contractors trying to present themselves as experts when many aren't, and that is how poor quality develops. There are just as many poor clients who present themselves as knowledgable but definitely aren't.
I've been self-employed for over 20 years and I've seen a lot in that time, but one thing that never changes is the obstinate thinking about quality and money.
How many clients check for plagarism? How many check to see if back links are aunthetic? How many check to see if the time invested really was invested? Poor job management and poor knowledge on hiring is what is creating all of these issues.
Honestly, that's why so many excellent contractors have left this platform. It's fallen into a very cheap state.
@Dan S wrote:
In Elance there was a feature to change a job from hourly to flat rate or visa versa. There is no such feature here. Many times a client posts a job as hourly but I offer a guaranteed flat rate for it. The client chooses the flat rate and now must then post a new job to get a flat rate, just causing more confusion for the client.
Actually, Dan, it's not quite that convoluted, although the somewhat simpler method has only been documented (by Upwork) in the forum. The trick is to come to tems on your flat-rate contract with your prospects in correspondence ("interview") before they make an "Offer." They have the option to make the offer as fixed-rate, even if the job was listed at hourly. No new post is required. It's far from ideal, and it's also better than the official documentation makes it out to be.
We have removed some comments from this thread and are closing it for further posting. Please, refrain from posting disparaging remarks about other individuals or groups of people.