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Extreme Prejudice of Diversity Badge Exclusion

The idea of the Diversity Badge is a good one; clients have the opportunity to choose someone of a specific race, gender, nationality, culture. But why does this badge eliminate Whites and Males? Diversity is NOT about minorities. It's about diversity and should include all types of people. The groups list is non-inclusive to some races and genders. Why? This is beyond prejudice; it's insulting to the people who are not included and should be remedied immediately. Again, the diversity badge should not be about minorities, but the power of the client to find and choose a person within a certain group, not just minority groups.

 

Groups to include:

White

Male

Native American

Pacific Islander

Asian

Biracial

 

The category of "Other" should allow someone to type in what that "Other" is. 

43 REPLIES 43
41809a4c
Member

I would agree with you, but there is a clear and apparent discrepency in earnings on this website, if you compare even the two of us, you have earnings over 100k whereas I have $300 and we have submitted a similar number of proposals. I think these things are unfair, but maybe the diversity badge isn't the way to go. I think a proposed structure of reducing the % fee for minorities and increasing it for high earners should be the way to go.


Abish P wrote:

I would agree with you, but there is a clear and apparent discrepency in earnings on this website, if you compare even the two of us, you have earnings over 100k whereas I have $300 and we have submitted a similar number of proposals. I think these things are unfair, but maybe the diversity badge isn't the way to go. I think a proposed structure of reducing the % fee for minorities and increasing it for high earners should be the way to go.


How do you know she has submitted the same number of proposals? 

As for the other suggestions, I prefer we are all treated the same. Just like the JSS calculation is the same for everybody. 

Awards are based on merit. I've been doing this for 10+ years and have honed my skills and my presentation bid to the point where maybe it's just more attractive to clients. I lose A LOT of jobs to others. Is it because I'm a woman? Is it because I charge more than someone else might? Or is it because of all the factors a client is looking for? I don't know. But if it's based on race, gender, minority status, or whatever, let's just include everyone. If someone is looking for a veteran-owned business, I don't qualify for that. It leaves me out totally. If someone wants to support a Native American-owned business, I don't qualify. I've paid my dues and should not be DISQUALIFIED just because I'm White. That's racist.

I had a quick look at your profile. Your skills are extreme and you should be charging more money. Don't be afraid to charge more. You may get fewer jobs, but they'll pay more money. Don't sell yourself short. IMO, your background should be enough to get you more work. 

Abish, have you been on UW only since September?

 

There's also the possibility that there are more jobs for what I do, line and copy editing. Yours is a more specific field. And because of that, you can charge more. You've got a Masters for heaven sake. Use it. 


Abish P wrote:

I would agree with you, but there is a clear and apparent discrepency in earnings on this website, if you compare even the two of us, you have earnings over 100k whereas I have $300 and we have submitted a similar number of proposals. I think these things are unfair, but maybe the diversity badge isn't the way to go. I think a proposed structure of reducing the % fee for minorities and increasing it for high earners should be the way to go.


You think she should cough up MORE than the $20k she's paid to Upwork in fees? I think I'd tend to lean the other way...freelancers who have made more than 100k on the platform should not pay more than 10% on any project.

feed_my_eyes
Member

Do you have any evidence to suggest that white males are being discriminated against on Upwork?

I don't know that anyone is being discriminated against. That's not the point. The point is that everyone should be included in the diversity list, not just minorities. Minorities can be found there if someone prefers a minority. but someone should also be able to choose among all types of people, not solely minorities. That's what diversity is.

I have to say I am amazed why so many people so happily take this anti-discrimination cruise and seem not to bother much about how the destination point looks like. 

I can understand that there may be some gov programs that give companies some bonuses by working with any specific freelancer who is certified as XYZ. If that's the purpose of any kind of "badge", then I'm fine with it. I may question the reasoning behind such gov programs, but that's got nothing to do with UW - if the business wants to have a chance to hire some specific individuals, then I'm fine with any kind of badges that might help them out to achieve this. It'll be just another way of discriminating, no better or worse than the ways we already know.  

 

But...if anyone here really thinks such badges help in fighting off discrimination, then...wow! Seriously?

 

Everybody is discriminating against everybody every day, on every occasion. Every choice we make is discrimination. Based on 1.000.000 things that differentiate each one of us from the others. Let's deal with it and move on.

 

If anyone seriously wants to achieve some weird kind of "equality" here, there are a few steps that should be taken on UW to start with:

- no images of freelancers

- no names shown (give us numbers, randomly assigned)

- no location shown

So, when do we start with these changes? Cos if we don't, then I suggest stopping all this bs. 

 

Just my $0.02

 

 

 

Piotr, good talk. You're absolutely right. Remove anything that might suggest anything about anyone and clients can choose freelancers based on their presentation, not their country of origin, race, gender, or beauty. I can be AI for all the client knows, but the proof of my talent will be in my presentation, particularly because I'm in the Writing category. I get to actually show my skills to a small degree each time I bid on a job. It just works out that way.

2a05aa63
Member

It's a diversity badge not a dating website preference filter.

What are you trying to say?

What are you trying to say? That it's good the way it is?

Just to make my point clear and easy to grasp (in case anybody cares 🙂 ) :

 

There are 2 ways to go:

 

1. "Bumper sticker bomb" 

A freelancer is allowed to do a beauty contest show - shout about being a minority, an alien, an octopus, a WASP, whatever he/she wants to. Let us have all kinds of badges we want to have (or the business would like us to have) and proudly present them on our profiles, in our proposals, and God-knows-where-else. Or not use any of them and just stay with what we have. And don't bother if it influences any clients' decisions. 

 

2. "Total Equality Paradigm"

No info. No photo. No location, No bio. No proposal written in any personal way (just a box-ticking form to submit). 

 

No. 2 is an inhuman, plain crazy, and absolutely weird thing to do.  In my opinion, of course 🙂 

Hey Piotr,

Your original post was quite clear and a great solution. No identifying factors. Just like "The Voice". Incognito so singers can't be judged on any visual traits.


Lee C wrote:

Hey Piotr,

Your original post was quite clear and a great solution. No identifying factors. Just like "The Voice". Incognito so singers can't be judged on any visual traits.


Then I'm a lousy writer cos my intentions are different - no, anonymity is a WRONG way to go. It will never work because it is AGAINST human nature. We choose people we want to work with, not machines we want to rent and set up running. Because we are not machines ourselves. At the end of the day, you will always, as a client, find yourself with a pile of proposals sent by people of equal skills and competencies, charging similar rates. Whom are you gonna choose? On what basis? Here comes the human part. I am against "The Voice" concept - it will eventually make us all machines and kill any human elements we still have.  


Piotr O wrote:

Lee C wrote:

Hey Piotr,

Your original post was quite clear and a great solution. No identifying factors. Just like "The Voice". Incognito so singers can't be judged on any visual traits.


Then I'm a lousy writer cos my intentions are different - no, anonymity is a WRONG way to go. It will never work because it is AGAINST human nature. We choose people we want to work with, not machines we want to rent and set up running. Because we are not machines ourselves. At the end of the day, you will always, as a client, find yourself with a pile of proposals sent by people of equal skills and competencies, charging similar rates. Whom are you gonna choose? On what basis? Here comes the human part. I am against "The Voice" concept - it will eventually make us all machines and kill any human elements we still have.  


Right. It would doom the platform to leave out pictures and personal information such as education or work experience. Why? Because it's all about the human connection. A client wants to know who he is dealing with. It's simply human nature. 

roberty1y
Member

Clients choose whomever they want, for a variety of reasons. It's mostly on merit, i.e. good qualifactions and impressive job history. But many people get along better with people from their own cultural background, and hire accordingly. The less Upwork interferes with their choices, the better.


Lee C wrote:

The idea of the Diversity Badge is a good one; clients have the opportunity to choose someone of a specific race, gender, nationality, culture. But why does this badge eliminate Whites and Males? Diversity is NOT about minorities. It's about diversity and should include all types of people. The groups list is non-inclusive to some races and genders. Why? This is beyond prejudice; it's insulting to the people who are not included and should be remedied immediately. Again, the diversity badge should not be about minorities, but the power of the client to find and choose a person within a certain group, not just minority groups.

 

Groups to include:

White

Male

Native American

Pacific Islander

Asian

Biracial

 

The category of "Other" should allow someone to type in what that "Other" is. 


You misunderstand the program. UW is not certifying anyone as representing any aspect of diversity. UW is just making it possible for FLs who obtain certification from various third-party agencies as diverse businesses or suppliers to display that certification as part of their profile. UW has nothing to do with those agencies or the eligibility criteria they use in their certifications. 

 

UW instituted this program in response to requests from clients that have diversity targets in contracting. 

 

That's awesome. But they excluded several categories.


Lee C wrote:
That's awesome. But they excluded several categories.

Yes, they excluded some categories. For example, hiring more white males won't make your business more diverse. If everybody is eligible for a diversity badge, then what would be the point, exactly?

 

In any case, the program is only open to Americans, who are being hired by American clients, probably using the US-only marketplace. Maybe you should rail against that, since you're so interested in fairness.

I have a better idea. I don't know who you are, but there's no need to be nasty or snarky. If you have something to say on the issue, you should just make a comment instead of attacking another freelancer's opinion.


Lee C wrote:
That's awesome. But they excluded several categories.

1. Please use the quote function so it's clear which comment you're responding to. (Otherwise, the thread eventually becomes chaotic and annoying to people reading later.)

 

2. Pretty sure their list is based on available certificates. If you know of others that exist but are not represented, I'm sure UW would welcome the information.

 

Thanks, Phyllis. I think I'll just stay away from the community. This is my first time posting, and like all forums, it's turned out to be just a time waster. I do appreciate your explanation of the program.


Lee C wrote:

This is my first time posting, and like all forums, it's turned out to be just a time waster. 

 

 


C'mon, Lee...first time posting with 39 posts on the clock? 😉 Quite a repetitive "first night" 🙂


Piotr O wrote:

Lee C wrote:

This is my first time posting, and like all forums, it's turned out to be just a time waster. 

 

 


C'mon, Lee...first time posting with 39 posts on the clock? 😉 Quite a repetitive "first night" 🙂


Perhaps she has forgotten that she joined the forum in 2015 and has posted multiple times between then and now? 

Wow -- great discussion here. I'm impressed by Lee C bringing this up. 

No -- I don't think there's an answer here. If the intent of the diversity badge is to make it easier for clients seeking to hire members of a minority, then I supposed that's their right and good for Upwork to help them out. On the other hand, if the intent is to make Upwork fair to all, then, sure, present a system that allows everyone to participate. 

It is also clear that a system in which no personal information is presented -- like the television program The Voice -- has a lot to be said for it. However, yes, I agree that clients looking for someone to hire on Upwork often -- I would think a vast majority, in fact -- require some evidence of a human connection being made. We're not bots. We're humanoids. So, that's a second question with two conflicting answers to it.

Lee C. Thanks for bringing this up. I think you're right -- if the intent is to be fair to everyone, whites should be included. But your argument is moot if the intent is to help those specifically seeking minority-representing workers. So, what's the beef? They weren't going to hire you, anyway. 

(And, by the way, Lee C. you are an absolute workhorse. An enviable track record you've got there.)


 

 


Anthony H wrote:

Wow -- great discussion here. I'm impressed by Lee C bringing this up. 

No -- I don't think there's an answer here. If the intent of the diversity badge is to make it easier for clients seeking to hire members of a minority, then I supposed that's their right and good for Upwork to help them out. On the other hand, if the intent is to make Upwork fair to all, then, sure, present a system that allows everyone to participate. 

It is also clear that a system in which no personal information is presented -- like the television program The Voice -- has a lot to be said for it. However, yes, I agree that clients looking for someone to hire on Upwork often -- I would think a vast majority, in fact -- require some evidence of a human connection being made. We're not bots. We're humanoids. So, that's a second question with two conflicting answers to it.

Lee C. Thanks for bringing this up. I think you're right -- if the intent is to be fair to everyone, whites should be included. But your argument is moot if the intent is to help those specifically seeking minority-representing workers. So, what's the beef? They weren't going to hire you, anyway. 

(And, by the way, Lee C. you are an absolute workhorse. An enviable track record you've got there.)


 

 


White people are eligible for diversity badges, just not based on their race. Since white or caucasian is a race, if your ethnicity is Latinx/Hispanic, you are eligible. If you are disabled and white, you are eligible. If you are a woman and white, you are eligible. You're white and gay/lesbian, you are eligible. You are just not eligible if you are a CIS, white, abled, male. 


Lee C wrote:

Thanks, Phyllis. I think I'll just stay away from the community. This is my first time posting, and like all forums, it's turned out to be just a time waster. I do appreciate your explanation of the program.


Well, in case you decide to "post for the first time" again, it would be nice to use QUOTE as you have already been told.
In case you don't know how, I also needed an explanation when I started here, I leave instructions:

QUOTE2.png


Lee C wrote:

Thanks, Phyllis. I think I'll just stay away from the community. This is my first time posting, and like all forums, it's turned out to be just a time waster. I do appreciate your explanation of the program.


In my experience the quality of any online community depends on how one chooses to participate, i.e., you get out what you put into it. 

marc_compte
Member


Lee C wrote:

The idea of the Diversity Badge is a good one; clients have the opportunity to choose someone of a specific race, gender, nationality, culture. But why does this badge eliminate Whites and Males? Diversity is NOT about minorities. It's about diversity and should include all types of people. The groups list is non-inclusive to some races and genders. Why? This is beyond prejudice; it's insulting to the people who are not included and should be remedied immediately. Again, the diversity badge should not be about minorities, but the power of the client to find and choose a person within a certain group, not just minority groups.

 

Groups to include:

White

Male

Native American

Pacific Islander

Asian

Biracial

 

The category of "Other" should allow someone to type in what that "Other" is. 


I don't think this is correct. Diversity is not one's right to pick any option, which one still has. Diversity is the variety of expressions of a feature. If there are fewer expressions, the diversity is reduced.

This necessarily means that an individual belonging to a mintority is more valuable, in terms of diversity, because it represents its group in a higher percentage than an individual belonging to a majority. This can be said about the different color skin and gender among hired people but also about the different plant species in your garden.

That is simply because, if a few individuals in a minority are removed from the system, their group may drop off and the diversity of the system will decrease. If a few individuals in a majority are removed, their group is still a majority and the diversity stays the same.


So, the diversity index is stronger and healthier when the whole system is healthy and there is little difference between minorities and majorities. It is stronger because there is no group that would pose a threat to diversity if some of their members were removed.

That is why, favoring or increasing the members of a majority not only is not favoring diversity but it slightly increases the difference between majority and minorities, thus slightly weakening the diversity and, if done enough times, eventually reducing it.

Saying that hiring a white male is killing diversity is an over-dramatization, of course. It is not the case, but I suspect it does not help diversity in the USA marketplace and, if anything, it plays against it.

 

So, I can see how a "white male" filter can be useful in some cases, but it could be in a different section. In my opinion, the "diversity filters" section is the one place where this filter does not fit.

claudiacezy
Member


Lee C wrote:

The idea of the Diversity Badge is a good one; clients have the opportunity to choose someone of a specific race, gender, nationality, culture. But why does this badge eliminate Whites and Males?


I find it sketchy because to obtain such certifications one may have to pay fees, undergo verifications, which may actually remove from the program the most vulnerable or unfortunate within a minority group.


Race or gender based discrimination is unlawful under U.S. federal and state civil rights laws, including white people. Apparently the only exception might be if a company has an affirmative action plan. I presume Upwork grants access to gender-race based search filters only after verifying that the company has an affirmative action plan, in accordance with whatever regulations there are.


Claudia Z wrote:

Lee C wrote:

The idea of the Diversity Badge is a good one; clients have the opportunity to choose someone of a specific race, gender, nationality, culture. But why does this badge eliminate Whites and Males?


I find it sketchy because to obtain such certifications one may have to pay fees, undergo verifications, which may actually remove from the program the most vulnerable or unfortunate within a minority group.


Race or gender based discrimination is unlawful under U.S. federal and state civil rights laws, including white people. Apparently the only exception might be if a company has an affirmative action plan. I presume Upwork grants access to gender-race based search filters only after verifying that the company has an affirmative action plan, in accordance with whatever regulations there are.


Except it's more complicated than saying "race or gender-based discrimination is unlawful". First of all, it's not unlawful simply to discriminate. Any person can discriminate however they want. It becomes unlawful when it's in conjunction with things like hiring practices, housing practices, and other situations. Yes, the EEOA cover white people too, but that does not mean that diversity certifications, as offered by the Small Business Administration (which is a branch of the US government) or other entities are discriminating because they do not offer a White/Abled/Male/Hetersexual business certification. 

 

However, the EEOA covers HIRING practices related to EMPLOYMENT. They generally do not cover practices related to contracting with independent contractors. Additionally, certain industries are exempt for a variety of reasons, for example, hiring actors or models. Additionally, employers must actually employ a minimum number of individiuals for these laws to even apply. 


Amanda L wrote:


Except it's more complicated than saying "race or gender-based discrimination is unlawful".


Ofcourse it's more complex than that but it can be extended to the point that a company can be liable for discrimination by an independent contractor.

 

As I said, I presume Upwork grants access to gender-race/whatever based search filters only after verifying that the company has an affirmative action plan, in accordance with whatever regulations there are. It's not meant to be an instrument accessible to the general audience.


"To start, this certification will only show to Enterprise and Business clients as we monitor the impact. These clients have indicated they are most interested in seeking out diverse businesses and often have diversity and inclusion initiatives as part of their hiring practices."




Claudia Z wrote:

Amanda L wrote:


Except it's more complicated than saying "race or gender-based discrimination is unlawful".


Ofcourse it's more complex than that but it can be extended to the point that a company can be liable for discrimination by an independent contractor. - No, they can't. That's my whole point. Did you read my post or the links to the actual laws? 

 

As I said, I presume Upwork grants access to gender-race/whatever based search filters only after verifying that the company has an affirmative action plan, in accordance with whatever regulations there are. It's not meant to be an instrument accessible to the general audience.


"To start, this certification will only show to Enterprise and Business clients as we monitor the impact. These clients have indicated they are most interested in seeking out diverse businesses and often have diversity and inclusion initiatives as part of their hiring practices."




Upwork likely does no such thing because as I said the law is much more complex than that. It does NOT apply to hiring independent contractors, so, no, they don't need an affirmative action plan in place. ALSO, those plans are requirements for businesses with 50 or more employees who have federal contrac... Upwork is not going to verify whose business has a certain number of employees and who has federal contracts any more than they will verify that people pay their taxes. 

 

In terms of liability, that would be the company who is liable, not Upwork. The company is responsible for knowing what their hiring practices may allow under the law. Upwork provides a variety of tools and filters, but it is not their job to monitor each company's statistics and demographics. Nor would we want them to since it would cost a lot of money and make hiring a lot harder, which would impact us as freelancers. 

 

Regardless, affirmative action plans do not include plans to figure out how to hire more white people. 

 

"For federal contractors and subcontractors, affirmative action must be taken by covered employers to recruit and advance qualified minorities, women, persons with disabilities, and covered veterans." 

This week many news organizations are reporting on this newly released study:

 

https://www.intelligent.com/34-of-white-college-students-lied-about-their-race-to-improve-chances-of...

 

Screen Shot 2021-10-26 at 1.39.15 PM.png

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/ofccp/faqs/general-aaps

 

U.S. Department of Labor:

 

May an employer override an individual’s self-identification of race, gender or ethnicity based on the employer’s visual observation?

 

No. OFCCP’s policy is that deference should be given to an individual’s self-identification and it should not be questioned or overridden by an employer based on the employer’s visual observation.

 

...a contractor may not ask applicants or employees for documentation to prove their gender identity or transgender status...

 

Self-identification is the most reliable method and preferred method for compiling information about a person’s gender, race and ethnicity. Contractors are strongly encouraged to rely on employee self-identification to obtain this information.


Preston H wrote:

This week many news organizations are reporting on this newly released study:

 


Chances are that some of those who "lied" might be native-american or african-american descendants. The truth is somewhere in between. 


Preston H wrote:

This week many news organizations are reporting on this newly released study:

 

https://www.intelligent.com/34-of-white-college-students-lied-about-their-race-to-improve-chances-of...

 

Screen Shot 2021-10-26 at 1.39.15 PM.png


This factoid, of course, along with any and all references to U.S. employment law, has nothing whatsoever to do with the extensive and potentially expensive process of getting certified for the relevant contractor setaside programs—and consequently and indirectly, Upwork's badge.

In my case, getting certified as an LGBTQ+ provider would cost roughly three times a normal month's operating expenses, over and above the time investment required.

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