Re: Fatturazione Italia

architecturaleng · ‎12-10-2015

**edited for Community Guidelines**

Anonymous-User · ‎12-10-2015

@roberto v wrote:
Buonasera a tutti
qualcuno potrebbe gentilmente spiegarmi come funziona la fatturazione dei lavori fatti su upwork in italia?

sono giorni che cerco notizie ma nessuno sa dare informazioni certe, neanche il mio commercialista.

Qualche dritta?
Grazie infinite

In English please. Not all of us speak Italian.

marafx · ‎02-19-2019

a complete guide to what invoicing Upwork should be like is here
http://www.nomadidigitali.it/amministrazione-fisco-e-finanze/fatturazione-su-upwork-come-funziona/?p...

sarapiovesan · ‎12-10-2015

Ciao Roberto!

You should write in English in here...

Anyway, you can follow these threads

Click 1

Click 2

Click 3

I do prefer the last one...

agazzarini · ‎12-13-2015

Hi all,

I'm writing because I'm the same situation of Roberto (I mean I live in Italy, too). The only difference, I guess, is that I already worked for Upwork (I completed my first project in November),

Now, the links posted above seem to refer to UpWork service fees, which are "costs" for me (I'm a freelancer with a regular VAT account). For them, I don't have so much questions, they are just passive invoices from my perspective.

The problem, which I don't really understand, is the invoice I should emit on top of the amount received for my job. Specifically, if for example I did a work for 2000 $

- Upwork will retain 200 $: I will receive an invoice from Upwork for that amount. This is the passive invoice and that's ok.

- I have to emit an invoice for 1800 $: I guess I should invoice Upwork for my job, not the final customer (which should be invoiced by UpWork with an its own invoice).

Is that right? Is there any Italian guy out there who would like to share its experience?

Best,

Andrea

sarapiovesan · ‎12-13-2015

No.

UpWork issues invoices to your clients on your behalf (click on link #3 and see the last pages of that thread).

The HUGE problem is that, to date, freelancers don't receive the copies of these above-said invoices.

By the way, we should also be able to edit the content of our invoices.

And see our clients' details (fiscal address, VAT number, etc...).

agazzarini · ‎12-13-2015

HI Sara,

many thansk for quick replying but I didn't get the point: Upwork is emitting an invoice towards my contractors in my name??? Is that legal? How can Upwork know my invoice details (e.g. invoice number must be progressive)

> The HUGE problem is that, to date, freelancers don't receive the copies of these above-said invoices.

Even if i will receive that, how is it possible for someone, who's not me, to emit an invoice with my name?

I just had a chat with my last conctractor: he didn't received anything from Upwork, although I received the money (and for the Italian law I *must* have an outgoing invoice, with my legal names and towards who credited my account - i.e. Upwork)

The Upwork support didn't tell me this "invoice on my behalf": instead, they said that I can send my invoice to Upwork through an email to support@upwork.com, but at this point I'm a bit confused...will be somewhere an invoice with my name and I won't be aware about that??? That's crazy

Andrea

sarapiovesan · ‎12-13-2015

click here!

I know.

That's why I haven't included my VAT number in the system. I will, once this problem gets fixed.

kochubei_valeria · ‎12-10-2015

Hi Roberto,

Note that it's not allowed to post in languages other than English in the Community. Please, feel free to edit your post to have it in English.

Thank you!

~ Valeria

colettelewis · ‎12-13-2015

Short answer. At the moment Upwork does not provide invoices (fatturazione) and it is a real bore when it comes to explaining Upwork to the tax man or woman (in France, anyway).

cgczar1 · ‎01-25-2016

Hello all! I'm new to Upwork and am facing the same problem with invoices to clients.

I am Italian, and we MUST have progressive invoices for all compensation from each and all clients.

I have read all the above and other posts on the subject, and got back to Upwork user agreement, and may have found the key to sort all invoices to clients. The Agreement clearly states

6.7 FORMAL INVOICES AND TAXES

Upwork will have no responsibility for determining the necessity of or for issuing any formal invoices, or for determining, remitting, or withholding any taxes applicable to the Freelancer Fees. Freelancer will be solely responsible for determining whether it is required by applicable law to issue any formal invoices for the Freelancer Fees and for issuing any invoices so required.

So, this is the way I'll go. Simply send my personal formal invoice to my clients - thus following the progressive number- and I will identify Upwork into the payment method box. I can also refer to the Upwork withdrawal date for the income by client, as well as marking PAID on the invoice.

Upwork fee + VAT is already invoiced by tUpwork to me so that'll explain why Mr X paid 100% and I received 90% (payment method Upwork=Paypal).

Client will be informed of the formal invoice to prsent to his IRS.

Does it sound good enough?

Anonymous-User · ‎01-25-2016

@cristina c wrote:
Hello all! I'm new to Upwork and am facing the same problem with invoices to clients.
I am Italian, and we MUST have progressive invoices for all compensation from each and all clients.

I have read all the above and other posts on the subject, and got back to Upwork user agreement, and may have found the key to sort all invoices to clients. The Agreement clearly states
6.7 FORMAL INVOICES AND TAXES
Upwork will have no responsibility for determining the necessity of or for issuing any formal invoices, or for determining, remitting, or withholding any taxes applicable to the Freelancer Fees. Freelancer will be solely responsible for determining whether it is required by applicable law to issue any formal invoices for the Freelancer Fees and for issuing any invoices so required.

So, this is the way I'll go. Simply send my personal formal invoice to my clients - thus following the progressive number- and I will identify Upwork into the payment method box. I can also refer to the Upwork withdrawal date for the income by client, as well as marking PAID on the invoice.
Upwork fee + VAT is already invoiced by tUpwork to me so that'll explain why Mr X paid 100% and I received 90% (payment method Upwork=Paypal).

Client will be informed of the formal invoice to prsent to his IRS.

Does it sound good enough?

Everything is fine so far. However, if you have to charge VAT (I do not know if you have to do) then you will have to forward the VAT to your tax authorities and have to mention the VAT on your invoice, alternatively you can apply reverse charge. In both cases it is good if both sides exchange their VAT-IDs and they should also appear on the invoice. If you do not have to charge VAT then everything is fine as you have described it above. Good luck!

eleonora_p · ‎02-05-2016

Hi Cristina (and everybody!),

I tried to contact you privately but I guess I am having some problem.

I am facing the same problem, especially about the progressive invoices.

I am about to receive my first Upwork invoice in a few days but, from what I've read so far, that won't be ok for Italian tax authorites and I am a bit worried.

You said you just send your progressive invoice to the client you worked for, right? But what if he doesn't want to give you his details?

What are we going to do with this Upwork invoice? (Btw, I've never seen one so far, so I am very curious about it, to be honest)

How can we add numbers, or just statements about our tax regime?

Thank you

Anonymous-User · ‎02-05-2016

@Eleonora P wrote:
Hi Cristina (and everybody!),

I tried to contact you privately but I guess I am having some problem.
I am facing the same problem, especially about the progressive invoices.
I am about to receive my first Upwork invoice in a few days but, from what I've read so far, that won't be ok for Italian tax authorites and I am a bit worried.
You said you just send your progressive invoice to the client you worked for, right? But what if he doesn't want to give you his details?
What are we going to do with this Upwork invoice? (Btw, I've never seen one so far, so I am very curious about it, to be honest)
How can we add numbers, or just statements about our tax regime?
Thank you

I do not work for clients who do not want to provide their data. We also have to know if our work is for a private person or a company. I suppose you are a freelancer, so you will not receive any invoices (except for Upwork's service fee). Only the client receives the invoices. Yes, it is strange that finally two invoices will exist: one sent from Upwork to the client which is not according EU law and one sent from the freelancer to the client. If the client will make use of both invoices he will have a problem. It is really strange, however, I prefer issuing my own invoices instead of being accused of money-laundering and/or tax fraud.

eleonora_p · ‎02-05-2016

Hi Margarete, thank you for your kind reply.

Yes, I'm a freelancer and I just finished my first job as I found out the truth about all this.

So ok, that means I WON'T receive an invoice for my job. Awesome. 😞

That's a very big problem for all of us.

So what can I do? I can only ask the client for his details and hope he will send them to me so that I can send a proper invoice? And what if he doesn't? How can I explain that to my tax authorities?

I thought the invoice would appear when the payment isn't "pending" anymore, but from what you said, it's never going to show up...

Anonymous-User · ‎02-05-2016

@Eleonora P wrote:
Hi Margarete, thank you for your kind reply.

Yes, I'm a freelancer and I just finished my first job as I found out the truth about all this.
So ok, that means I WON'T receive an invoice for my job. Awesome. 😞
That's a very big problem for all of us.
So what can I do? I can only ask the client for his details and hope he will send them to me so that I can send a proper invoice? And what if he doesn't? How can I explain that to my tax authorities?

I thought the invoice would appear when the payment isn't "pending" anymore, but from what you said, it's never going to show up...

Yes, this is a big problem for the EU freelancers and many of us have complained about again and again. The invoice appears for the client but not for the freelancer. You can only see in your account that the money has been paid and when, there is a transcation no. as well. If the client does not provide any info I would not work for him. If you have no info about your client and no invoice you will have a big problem with your tax authorities as I have explained already. I think the situation in Italy is comparable with Germany. All our work is business and if you do business it is essential to know who your client is. At least this is the situation in all EU countries.

eleonora_p · ‎02-05-2016

So perhpas I could ask the client to send me the invoice he gets.

At least that shoud have my data and his...

The problem of progressive number would still exist, though.

Anonymous-User · ‎02-05-2016

@Eleonora P wrote:
So perhpas I could ask the client to send me the invoice he gets.
At least that shoud have my data and his...
The problem of progressive number would still exist, though.

You can have a progressive number if you issue your own invoice. However, as Upwork issued the invoice, the number of the invoice has nothing to do with your invoice numbers. This at least should not be a problem for you.

I really do not understand why Upwork hides the invoices from the freelancers they have sent in their names. In either case the tax authorites will know how much money the clients paid to Upwork and how much Upwork has earned from the freelancers. There must be another reason I do not know.

eleonora_p · ‎02-05-2016

The date of my payments shoud be Feb 8th and 9th. Now everything (except Upwork fees, for which I already have an invoice issued by Upwork itself)) appears as "pending".

I'll just wait for what happens.

So does this refer ONLY to clients?

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068188-I-need-an-official-invoice-How-do-I-find-one-

That's not clear at all.

I am trying to contact my client to see if he can provide me with his details.

I am really really really WORRIED.

Anonymous-User · ‎02-05-2016

@Eleonora P wrote:
The date of my payments shoud be Feb 8th and 9th. Now everything (except Upwork fees, for which I already have an invoice issued by Upwork itself)) appears as "pending".
I'll just wait for what happens.

So does this refer ONLY to clients?

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068188-I-need-an-official-invoice-How-do-I-find-one-

That's not clear at all.
I am trying to contact my client to see if he can provide me with his details.
I am really really really WORRIED.

Yes. Please have a look at one of the discussions before

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Name-on-a-received-invoice/td-p/92225/page/22

eleonora_p · ‎02-05-2016

I have read the topic, yes.

I think I'll wait until Monday and see what happens when my payment is released.

In the mean time, I have submitted a request to Upwork staff but I'm still waiting for their reply.

My client seems now to be interested in the problem and asked me to inform him about what the support says (still no data, though).

luciazanaia · ‎02-05-2016

Hello Eleonora,

there are many people complaining for this reason and what's unbelievable is that Upwork doesn't give an explanation.

I wrote to the support staff too. They were very kind, but they simply confirmed that they send an invoice to the client on my name, but I don't receive it, and that they "forwarded my suggestions to Upwork product development team for future enhancements" and to ask for answers here in the forum.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE ONLY TALK TO EACH OTHER HERE, but no answer from UPwork AT ALL

A few freelancers don't count much, but what would it happen if the issue were put forward by all no U.S. freelancers?

cgczar1 · ‎02-06-2016

Hi Eleonora, and Margarete and Lucia 🙂

sorry for not replying earlier Eleonora, but had no notification of your message. Now you have my reply, finally! 🙂

So, yes, it is a problem for us European.

Only way through is to issue our own invoices and send them to clients, who will do what they please with them.

They'll have 1 Official Invoice and 1 UnOfficial invoice. That is what Upwork clearly states in its terms and conditions.

So then Client is responsible for himself in front of their IRS.

Margarete highlighted the imortant difference between having a company as client or a private. This does make a difference in our country when we work without TVA.

A local company hiring me for my services will have to detract 20% taxes off my earning, which he'll have to deposit to IRS on my behalf (with all risks involved and a burden on his back). A private hiring me will not have to do that (I am the sole responsible for that 20%). I got round this issue, by simply deciding to declare my 20% tax personally for all clients at the moment I'll present my revenues for IRS (so saving 20% from my earnings received from that company: Note: from the TOTAL received by the client, not the one received by Upwork - this is another entry-). In this way I'll rest assured my contribution to IRS are deposited, and no one gets annoyed by any further beaurocracy task to fulfill on my behalf/because of me. 😉

Just always keep in mind you hired Upwork to manage your earnings from different clients.

To me, this role has clarified many of my issues with invoicing. Keep the two differentiated, and it will all be clear.

Next problem: needless to say, you need the company full details.

I just write them an email saying that the invoice they receive from Upwork is not official but only a statement listing the transactions between the two of us.

So kindly find here attached a SPECIMEN of my official invoice you will have to include in your IRS declaration. Kindly fill your company's data and/or let me know of any amendments you will need me to make to suit your local requirements.

Hope this helps!

Any other suggestions are warmly welcome!!

Ciao, have a great weekend! 🙂

eleonora_p · ‎02-06-2016

Hi all!

What Upwork is doing with invoices is completely ILLEGAL.

I wonder if there is some European committee we can turn to to explain the situation.

I mean, ALL EU freelancers are having the same problem! Is there anything we can do?

Anonymous-User · ‎02-06-2016

@Eleonora P wrote:
Hi all!

What Upwork is doing with invoices is completely ILLEGAL.
I wonder if there is some European committee we can turn to to explain the situation.
I mean, ALL EU freelancers are having the same problem! Is there anything we can do?

Not only freelancers from EU countries, those freelancers from other countries in Europe as well. There is always something that can be done... As Upwork already has to deliver the VAT for the service fee to the EU, I suppose that legal VAT invoices for the freelancers' work are only a question of time - provided Upwork is still interested in European freelancers and clients. I am not quite sure.

colettelewis · ‎02-06-2016

Upwork's European HQ is not in the EU but in Norway (not an EU country, although closely affiliated) - so this could explain, in part, the invoice problem.

eleonora_p · ‎02-06-2016

Hi Nichola!

I dind't know that (clever move, Upwork, my compliments), but still, it is absolutely NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Could VIES do something about this issue?

eleonora_p · ‎02-06-2016

This is the reply I received about this issue from Upwork staff:

**edited for Community Guidelines**

What?? I have to send THEM an invoice that is never going to be seen?!?

And they also say that THEY ARE NOT THE FINAL CLIENT??

Are they crazy or what?!? Do they want all of of us to have serious troubles with our tax authorities?

This is UNBELIEVABLE!!!

Anonymous-User · ‎02-06-2016

@Eleonora P wrote:

This is the reply I received about this issue from Upwork staff:

**edited for Community Guidelines**

What?? I have to send THEM an invoice that is never going to be seen?!?

And they also say that THEY ARE NOT THE FINAL CLIENT??

Are they crazy or what?!? Do they want all of of us to have serious troubles with our tax authorities?

This is UNBELIEVABLE!!!

That is a really crazy response. Besides the fact that Upwork will not provide an invoice to the freelancer I do not exactly understand the rest. That seems to be nonsense. We should send our invoices to the support to generate an auto-response that says that the email is not being monitored??? If you consult a tax consultant he will confirm that Upworks's invoicing is unacceptable in the EU. Nobody maintained that Upwork is the client, and if Upwork is only is a broker it should not send an invoice to the client at all. However, I think Jasmin did not have a clue.

eleonora_p · ‎02-06-2016

In fact, I have already replied to dear Jasmin.

They really don't know what they are talking about. They have NO IDEA of the serious consequences all this is going to have.

I think all the freelancers should do something together.

NOW.

Anyway, no doubt I am going to talk to my accountant and try to find out what I/we can do to solve the problem.

Anonymous-User · ‎02-06-2016

@Eleonora P wrote:

Anyway, no doubt I am going to talk to my accountant and try to find out what I/we can do to solve the problem.

He will throw his hands up in horror...

cgczar1 · ‎02-18-2016

Hi All! 🙂

Hope you're all doing great and working like crazy

Just a little update, but an important one.

Besides the fact that Upwork denies being our client - so the one to be invoiced by us - all I have read around the community confirms what I am thinking.

Please when you have some spare time, do read all of this thread to understand Upwork position.

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Tax-obligations-on-the-client-side/td-p/4413/highlight/true/...

The above is fromm the clients point of view, asking who the hell is supposed to file tax forms for indipendent contractors.

We do have to invoice Upwork. Because he's the one to

1) manage our contract with the end client

2) manage our payments from the end client (client does not and must not pay us) directly

earnings and our ensuing deductions (10%fee)

3) not disclose the end client company details, as well as it does not disclose our company details to him

4 ) gets a percentage based on the earning value. If it were to be just a private platform they could allow entering and using of the site upon a fixed entry fee. Correct?

To me Upwork works as an agency, therefore he's the one getting my invoices for total amount.

cgczar1 · ‎02-18-2016

I have just received an update from my client.

He DOES not receive an invoice on my behalf from Upwork.

He receives an invoice from Upwork for the amount he put on his account.

He receives no invoices nor payment receipts on my name!!

So we invoice Upwork.

Anonymous-User · ‎02-18-2016

@cristina c wrote:
I have just received an update from my client.
He DOES not receive an invoice on my behalf from Upwork.
He receives an invoice from Upwork for the amount he put on his account.
He receives no invoices nor payment receipts on my name!!

So we invoice Upwork.

Normally your name appears on the invoice to the client, you can also activate the option in your settings that your complete name and address appears on the client's invoice, however, as far as I know not your VAT-ID.

eleonora_p · ‎02-18-2016

Hi everyone!

I totally agree with Cristina.

In fact, that is just what I did. I invoiced Upwork and sent them MY proper invoice, with MY progrossive number and all MY tax regime statements.

That's what both Upwork and my accountant told me to do.

That seems to be correct, because the payment actually comes from Upwork and NOT directly from the client we worked for.

Upwork works like an agency, they have fees (which they deduct from our earnings), so it is correct to invoice them.

When I sent them my invoice through the Help Center, I actually opened a ticket. As soon as they have a look at the ticket and find the attachment (my invoice, in this case), they then close the ticket. That means they did SEE IT.

So, from that moment on, it is not my problem anymore.

I sent them MY invoice. If they want to use it for other purposes (cleaning the desk, using it as a fan ) that is none of my business. They are responsible for the invoice they receive and if they do not take care of it, I'm sorry for them, but there is nothing I can do (obviously I will keep everything to prove I really sent my invoice, that is for sure).

I hope this really helps to solve the problem. I think that if we all start to invoice them for EVERY SINGLE JOB WE DO, they will surely start to think about changing their invoicing system as soon as possibile.

Anonymous-User · ‎02-18-2016

@Eleonora P wrote:

Hi everyone!

I totally agree with Cristina.

In fact, that is just what I did. I invoiced Upwork and sent them MY proper invoice, with MY progrossive number and all MY tax regime statements.

That's what both Upwork and my accountant told me to do.

That seems to be correct, because the payment actually comes from Upwork and NOT directly from the client we worked for.

Upwork works like an agency, they have fees (which they deduct from our earnings), so it is correct to invoice them.

When I sent them my invoice through the Help Center, I actually opened a ticket. As soon as they have a look at the ticket and find the attachment (my invoice, in this case), they then close the ticket. That means they did SEE IT.

So, from that moment on, it is not my problem anymore.

I sent them MY invoice. If they want to use it for other purposes (cleaning the desk, using it as a fan ) that is none of my business. They are responsible for the invoice they receive and if they do not take care of it, I'm sorry for them, but there is nothing I can do (obviously I will keep everything to prove I really sent my invoice, that is for sure).

I hope this really helps to solve the problem. I think that if we all start to invoice them for EVERY SINGLE JOB WE DO, they will surely start to think about changing their invoicing system as soon as possibile.

You can do that as long as your account will not be closed. Moreover, you should use a portrait photo for your account.

lenaellis · ‎03-03-2016

Freelancers are paid by the Clients that Freelancers work for. Payment does not come from Upwork. As described in our Terms of Service, Upwork's affiliate (Elance Escrow Corporation) acts as an escrow agent to facilitate payment from the Client to the Freelancer.

marafx · ‎02-28-2019

I disagree 100%.
Why?

I can copy paste you if you like the sender of the money: IS UPWORK. aND MY BANK RECEIVES MONEY FROM uPWORK.
aT this point Upwork is the payer. I never received a penny from a Client X or Y.
So, if Upwork is an intermediary it is normal that they release an invoice for the service of intermediation they provide. But it is also necessary that Upwork receives the invoice for the money UPWORK pays across BANK TRANSFER towards the freelancer.
Even if Upwork states: we do not pay you is the client that pays, for my bank it is Upwork making the payment. And that is black on white.

nabby76 · ‎03-02-2016

Hello Cristina, as I understand it, I send the invoice directly to the customer but for the price I really gain (without Uowork commission). Upwork then sends an invoice to me for the price of the commission retained. But Upwork send me only after I asked to pay? Because so far I have not received anything. Thank you.

cgczar1 · ‎03-02-2016

Ciao Sonia,

Upwork will send you notification when your earnings can be transferred to your chosen bank account/paypal account.

Either than that, you'll find all transactions and relevant invoices for their fees in your Reports section.

They will invoice you as soon as the work week (or the project) is over. So if you work on a per-hour contract, each week you'll have the relevant invoice for the fee Upwork has calculated on your earnings.

If you do invoice your client... well you'll may have to explain to your local fiscal agent what is Upwork paying (transferring funds) you for. That might look like money laundering. Client will have an invoice from you which cannot justify or match to a payment.

Clients wire money to Upwork account as a fund they can then use to pay for projects done.

Client does not know your details, besides your name. No address, no fiscal identy number or VAT numebr in case you have one. And he does not even have to worry about it. Not his problem.

Upwork establishes an account for you once you start working, read, once you earn money. So you too have a "fund" account. Once you reach the set minimum per withdraw, Upwork transfers money to your bank/paypal account. Of course, all minus the pertaining fees ( 10% fee, and cash-in fees- and maybe also VAT, depends on what fiscal regime you are ).

So, I personally invoice Upwork. That makes sense and corresponds to the actual funds I receive on my bank account/paypal account. I do not have to worry about what kind of client (fiscally) I have to deal with (in my country it does make a difference whether it's a private or a company)., or where he comes from.

Hope this helps! 🙂