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joeorsi28
Community Member

Feature request: fixed price trials without review risk

The majority of my projects are in the $2k-$8k range. This makes it very uneconomic to take any project that is small, as I will be taking on the same review risk as the larger contracts with much less upside. The way that Upwork is currently set up, I would say that any contract under $800 is not economic for my profile (reward does not justify the risk). This rules the majority of the invites I receive. 

 

In order to make these contracts economic, Upwork should launch a feature that allows freelancers to offer clients a small fixed price contract (could be called "trial" or "consultation") to initiate a relationship. Most importantly, these clients would not be able to leave a review unless they signed up for a bigger contract. This would make it significantly less risky to take on small projects and increase Upwork's GMV dramatically. 

 

 

23 REPLIES 23
petra_r
Community Member

The JSS is already Dollar-weighed. You could say that a large contract has a much bigger risk of affecting your profile than a small one.

 

Also, most freelancers don't have many big contracts.

 

It would be grossly unfair to not allow clients to leave feedback. They paid, so they can leave feedback.

 


Joseph O wrote:

...and increase Upwork's GMV dramatically. 


No, it wouldn't. How in the world would it do that??

If clients were unable to leave feedback on any contract under $800, most freelancers would have no reviews at all.

Not what I suggested. It would be a type of contract you could set up where both client and freelancer agree to waive feedback and upwork limits it to some small size. All current contract types would still be available.

Joseph, I see the logic behind your idea. But I fear it might not work out in the way you hope it would... Particularly for your kind of guys in the $100K+ earnings class not needing every contract and specifically with the idea of having this new contract type OPTIONAL.

I doubt the feasibility. It doesn't match how we do business.

Let's say, the freelancer insists on starting a trial project. What will the client think? How would the freelancer build trust quickly with a contract that basically says "I don't trust you with a real contract yet" ... So, basically, the freelancer would have to admit having serious doubts which would build distrust, I suppose. (Also, I guess the freelancer would admit not having a foolproof client screening process.)

Let's say the client insists having that trial contract. Why would the freelancer agree? Basically, the freelancer is accepting the fact that the entire project would be a waste of time anyway as the client doesn't feel confident enough to make a real offer.

A client looking at my profile and proposing a trial contract... Bye bye! Also, I'd probably block because of illiteracy. 🤣

I doubt your idea works from business perspective.

I appreciate the effort you've put on trying to come up with ideas for improving this platform. Let's give this a little more consideration.

Could you please describe a scenario where the trial contract would work for both the client and the freelancer at the same time (assuming both are solid professionals)?

PS. Most of my clients are startups, the least stable businesses with the most volatile plans. I'm here to help them when we have a 100% match. If 99% only... no go. Why risk it? I really don't have any time for trials. Too much real business, you see. 😉
tlbp
Community Member

"I'll take your money but I don't trust you enough to let you assess my work." 

Everybody had an amazing fix for the review system and that amazing fix almost always involves eliminating the exact type of review that hurt their JSS. Maybe just learn to take your lumps like the rest of us commoners. 

 

joeorsi28
Community Member

I don’t understand why people on this forum are incapable of responding in a non-toxic way. It’s just so unnecessary. Commoners? Really?

Of course I don’t trust a new client just like I don’t trust any person I know nothing about on the internet. Currently, that means that I just won’t work with clients who can’t afford to spend a lot. This would be a solution for my business. It would be cool if I could leave this sort of feedback without being attacked by people who are some how triggered by the idea that some consultants have higher earnings than they do.


Joseph O wrote:
 It would be cool if I could leave this sort of feedback without being attacked by people who are some how triggered by the idea that some consultants have higher earnings than they do.

You are not being attacked and truly, nobody could possibly care any less what you are or aren't earning. Nobody is attacking you. Your fellow freelancers simply don't agree with the merits of or any need for your idea. That's all.

 


Joseph O wrote:
Currently, that means that I just won’t work with clients who can’t afford to spend a lot.

Don't then. Problem solved.

 


Joseph O wrote:
I wish that I was allowed to leave feedback for whatever service you are meant to be providing to this forum.

I am not "meant to be providing" any services here. I am simply another freelancer.


And funny how I am not the one who is persisting with the personal attacks. Please do try to discuss the points brought up, without the repeated ad hominem insults... that would be great, thank you!

Petra, I have not once received a response from you that isn’t highly condescending. I think you should show a little bit more respect your fellow freelancers and consider wording things in a way that isnt meant to highlight how stupid you think they are.


How would it be grossly unfair? Both parties would have to agree to it. I regularly turn away clients who want to hire me and would gladly sign away their rights to reviewing me. I don’t think they would consider this unfair. Also, a $200 contract recently reduced my JSS by 1%. I have ~$160k in 2 year earnings and they left no negative public feedback. That is what actually seems unfair.

It would increase the GMV by increasing the amount of projects that are possible for freelancers like me to take on. The current system is in a disequilibrium because small projects are disproportionately powerful, even after accounting for a dollar-weighted JSS. Correcting the disequilibrium would lead to more projects being matched with qualified freelancers and more money spent on the platform, which would result in a larger GMV.


Joseph O wrote:

It would increase the GMV by increasing the amount of projects that are possible for freelancers like me to take on. The current system is in a disequilibrium because small projects are disproportionately powerful, even after accounting for a dollar-weighted JSS. Correcting the disequilibrium would lead to more projects being matched with qualified freelancers and more money spent on the platform, which would result in a larger GMV.

I have to confess that I'm completely failing to see any benefits to clients or to Upwork. If I were a client and a freelancer said to me, "Okay, I'll do your project, but you have to agree not to leave me any review" my response would be "absolutely not!". Why would any client want to hire a freelancer who refuses to take any responsibility for the outcome?

 

Also, telling a client that you won't work for them unless they agree not to leave feedback? That's feedback manipulation, which is against the rules. 

 

It's all well and good to say that your own clients would have no problem with this. Unfortunately, Upwork's policies apply to all clients, not just yours.

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand what you're saying. I've turned down projects whenever I get any hint that a client might be difficult and tank my JSS, and I'd make a lot more money if I didn't have these worries. But that's the whole point of the JSS. Upwork WANTS us to be worried about getting bad ratings, because then we won't take on projects if we're not certain that we're the right person for the job, and we'll make sure that we always do our best work for clients. I don't think they're going to change the system to make it easier for us.

Christine, OMG, you were thinking about the exact same issue coming from the client's perspective at the same time as I was! 🤣

Geniuses think alike (or something)? 😉


Joseph O wrote:
It would increase the GMV by increasing the amount of projects that are possible for freelancers like me to take on.

Only if nobody was hired other than yourself. If another freelancer does the job, the GMV stays the same. I'm sure you don't believe that clients won't hire anyone if you don't take a contract because you are afraid of poor outcomes.

 


Joseph O wrote:
Also, a $200 contract recently reduced my JSS by 1%.

Use your top rated perk if it bothers you. That's what it is there for.

 

I would think Upwork will be totally unlikely to consider a feature nobody has ever asked for and which wouldn't be of any use to the vast majority of users, based on your unique situation.

 

I have contracts ranging from $5 to over $100k. It never occured to me to turn down work from great clients just because I am frightened of poor feedback. 

 

I do turn down contracts from clients who aren't the kind of clients I work well with, but that is out of principle, not based on project value.
.

 

 

 

Petra, 

 

I'm not describing a hypothetical problem. I'm describing an actual problem that both myself, my clients, and my colleagues face fairly regularly. There is truly no point in arguing that this wouldn't be useful to me or my clients or that my clients wouldn't be interested in working for me if they weren't allowed to leave me a review, because you are arguing against something that is just true. Real clients have requested this feature to me. Ignoring feedback from the people who are actually on the ground is a terrible way to do business. It's okay to decide to not add a feature. It is completely absurd to rail against me like this and tell me that my issue isn't real. 

 

Anytime you put up a barrier that prevents a trade of goods and services that would otherwise be successful, there is a deadweight loss and GMV will be lower because of it. It doesn't matter if the client then goes and finds another freelancer, because they will still be choosing the second best fit. Utility will be lost. If you do this on a large scale, GMV will be lower than it otherwise would be. 

 

I wish that I was allowed to leave feedback for whatever service you are meant to be providing to this forum. Your responses are so consistently discouraging and seem to have the soul purpose of crushing any dialogue that might otherwise occur. I would truly much prefer to have received no response at all. 


Joseph O wrote:

There is truly no point in arguing that this wouldn't be useful to me or my clients or that my clients wouldn't be interested in working for me if they weren't allowed to leave me a review, because you are arguing against something that is just true. Real clients have requested this feature to me.


I've been on Elance/Upwork for over 20 years and not one single client has ever even hinted that they wish this was a feature. (This doesn't make your experiences irrelevant, of course - just sharing my own.) But if your clients don't want to leave feedback, you can simply close contracts yourself and then they don't have to. Why must they be prevented from doing so?

 


Joseph O wrote:

Anytime you put up a barrier that prevents a trade of goods and services that would otherwise be successful, there is a deadweight loss and GMV will be lower because of it. It doesn't matter if the client then goes and finds another freelancer, because they will still be choosing the second best fit. Utility will be lost. If you do this on a large scale, GMV will be lower than it otherwise would be. 

 


But it would be bad for clients if unqualified freelancers clamoured to do test projects for them, secure in the knowledge that they won't be reviewed on their performance, and quite happy to work for a small payment. Feedback is currently the only thing that weeds out bad freelancers and serves as a warning to other clients not to hire them. Many of them would be happy to exclusively bid on small test projects, then clients would receive terrible work and run a mile. You think that wouldn't hurt Upwork's bottom line?

 


Joseph O wrote:

Ignoring feedback from the people who are actually on the ground is a terrible way to do business. 

 


You've stated your case and I'm sure that a moderator has read the thread by now and will "pass it onto the team" if it merits consideration. But other freelancers can also weigh in as to why this might not be such a good idea; shouldn't our feedback count as well?

 


Joseph O wrote:

Petra, 

 

I wish that I was allowed to leave feedback for whatever service you are meant to be providing to this forum. 


We're allowed to leave feedback in the form of kudos. Cast your eyes to the right of your screen - Petra has been the "top solution author" and "top kudoed member" for as long as I've been a part of this community.

Is that right? Is JSS dollar-weighted? I know star rating is/was dollar-weighted, but i always assumed JSS wasn't?


Alexander N wrote:

Is that right? Is JSS dollar-weighted? I know star rating is/was dollar-weighted, but i always assumed JSS wasn't?


It originally wasn't.

It is now.

And does that mean that projects that got a bad feedback but were 100% refunded, do not impact JSS anymore at all? They used to.

Same with projects that ended with no money being ever paid. They also used to impact JSS negatively. But if JSS is dollar weighted now, they shouldn't right?

If both is true, this is definitely Very Good news, almost hard to believe.

Hi Alexander,

 

If you refund the full amount of a contract and your client leaves positive feedback, it will not be included in your JSS. This is because contracts with good feedback but no earnings aren't considered in the score.

 

You can find more information about how job size is affecting your Job Succes Score on this thread

 

~ Nikola
Upwork


Alexander N wrote:

And does that mean that projects that got a bad feedback but were 100% refunded, do not impact JSS anymore at all?


No, it doesn't mean that and if it meant that it would be disastrous news, because freelancers could just get rid of any sign of bad feedback and messed up contracts.

 

But contracts with no money paid, but positive or no (private) feedback don't hurt the JSS anymore. If there is poor private feedback, they do.


Alexander N wrote:

And does that mean that projects that got a bad feedback but were 100% refunded, do not impact JSS anymore at all? They used to.

 


A client's bad private feedback can still impact your JSS, even with the dollar weighting (there will be less impact, but not zero impact). If that weren't the case, everyone would have a 100% JSS and Upwork may as well get rid of it altogether.


Christine A wrote:

A client's bad private feedback can still impact your JSS, even with the dollar weighting (there will be less impact, but not zero impact).

I am fairly certain based on seeing some outcomes (but not absolutely sure) that the JSS impact is based on what was paid, rather than the eventually remaining $0. I am basing this on seeing how large refunds did not make any difference to the JSS at all.


Petra R wrote:

Christine A wrote:

A client's bad private feedback can still impact your JSS, even with the dollar weighting (there will be less impact, but not zero impact).

I am fairly certain based on seeing some outcomes (but not absolutely sure) that the JSS impact is based on what was paid, rather than the eventually remaining $0. I am basing this on seeing how large refunds did not make any difference to the JSS at all.


Ah, that's interesting - and fair, IMO. I should think that Upwork would want to discourage large refunds!

tlbp
Community Member

Allow it but require disclosure. 

"This freelancer, by mutual agreement with one or more clients, has opted not to allow feedback on the designated contracts [marked on their work history]. As a result, their JSS calculation does not reflect feedback from X contracts with a total value of $XX."

petra_r
Community Member


Tonya P wrote:

Allow it but require disclosure. 

"This freelancer, by mutual agreement with one or more clients, has opted not to allow feedback on the designated contracts [marked on their work history]. As a result, their JSS calculation and their feedback does not reflect feedback from X contracts with a total value of $XX."


Added by me

 

I still don't see any point in it and am fairly sure that hardly anyone would use it (which could be a hint that maybe tech-time be better spent on fixing broken stuff and building things people actually want) but at least that way it would be clear to a profile visitor that a feedback history and the JSS are not comprehensive and have been manipulated by requiring clients to not leave feedback.

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