Re: Feature request: fixed price trials without review risk

Joseph O · Apr 2, 2021 09:12:27 AM

The majority of my projects are in the $2k-$8k range. This makes it very uneconomic to take any project that is small, as I will be taking on the same review risk as the larger contracts with much less upside. The way that Upwork is currently set up, I would say that any contract under $800 is not economic for my profile (reward does not justify the risk). This rules the majority of the invites I receive.

In order to make these contracts economic, Upwork should launch a feature that allows freelancers to offer clients a small fixed price contract (could be called "trial" or "consultation") to initiate a relationship. Most importantly, these clients would not be able to leave a review unless they signed up for a bigger contract. This would make it significantly less risky to take on small projects and increase Upwork's GMV dramatically.

Petra R · Apr 2, 2021 09:41:03 AM

The JSS is already Dollar-weighed. You could say that a large contract has a much bigger risk of affecting your profile than a small one.

Also, most freelancers don't have many big contracts.

It would be grossly unfair to not allow clients to leave feedback. They paid, so they can leave feedback.

Joseph O wrote:
...and increase Upwork's GMV dramatically.

No, it wouldn't. How in the world would it do that??

Christine A · Apr 2, 2021 10:06:55 AM

If clients were unable to leave feedback on any contract under $800, most freelancers would have no reviews at all.

Joseph O · Apr 2, 2021 01:18:07 PM

Not what I suggested. It would be a type of contract you could set up where both client and freelancer agree to waive feedback and upwork limits it to some small size. All current contract types would still be available.

Mikko R · Apr 3, 2021 05:42:52 AM

Joseph, I see the logic behind your idea. But I fear it might not work out in the way you hope it would... Particularly for your kind of guys in the $100K+ earnings class not needing every contract and specifically with the idea of having this new contract type OPTIONAL.

I doubt the feasibility. It doesn't match how we do business.

Let's say, the freelancer insists on starting a trial project. What will the client think? How would the freelancer build trust quickly with a contract that basically says "I don't trust you with a real contract yet" ... So, basically, the freelancer would have to admit having serious doubts which would build distrust, I suppose. (Also, I guess the freelancer would admit not having a foolproof client screening process.)

Let's say the client insists having that trial contract. Why would the freelancer agree? Basically, the freelancer is accepting the fact that the entire project would be a waste of time anyway as the client doesn't feel confident enough to make a real offer.

A client looking at my profile and proposing a trial contract... Bye bye! Also, I'd probably block because of illiteracy. 🤣

I doubt your idea works from business perspective.

I appreciate the effort you've put on trying to come up with ideas for improving this platform. Let's give this a little more consideration.

Could you please describe a scenario where the trial contract would work for both the client and the freelancer at the same time (assuming both are solid professionals)?

PS. Most of my clients are startups, the least stable businesses with the most volatile plans. I'm here to help them when we have a 100% match. If 99% only... no go. Why risk it? I really don't have any time for trials. Too much real business, you see. 😉

Tonya P · Apr 3, 2021 02:59:20 PM

"I'll take your money but I don't trust you enough to let you assess my work."

Everybody had an amazing fix for the review system and that amazing fix almost always involves eliminating the exact type of review that hurt their JSS. Maybe just learn to take your lumps like the rest of us commoners.

Joseph O · Apr 3, 2021 04:57:55 PM

I don’t understand why people on this forum are incapable of responding in a non-toxic way. It’s just so unnecessary. Commoners? Really?

Of course I don’t trust a new client just like I don’t trust any person I know nothing about on the internet. Currently, that means that I just won’t work with clients who can’t afford to spend a lot. This would be a solution for my business. It would be cool if I could leave this sort of feedback without being attacked by people who are some how triggered by the idea that some consultants have higher earnings than they do.

Petra R · Apr 3, 2021 10:22:09 PM

Joseph O wrote:
It would be cool if I could leave this sort of feedback without being attacked by people who are some how triggered by the idea that some consultants have higher earnings than they do.

You are not being attacked and truly, nobody could possibly care any less what you are or aren't earning. Nobody is attacking you. Your fellow freelancers simply don't agree with the merits of or any need for your idea. That's all.

Joseph O wrote:
Currently, that means that I just won’t work with clients who can’t afford to spend a lot.

Don't then. Problem solved.

Joseph O wrote:
I wish that I was allowed to leave feedback for whatever service you are meant to be providing to this forum.

I am not "meant to be providing" any services here. I am simply another freelancer.

And funny how I am not the one who is persisting with the personal attacks. Please do try to discuss the points brought up, without the repeated ad hominem insults... that would be great, thank you!

Joseph O · Apr 2, 2021 01:17:05 PM

Petra, I have not once received a response from you that isn’t highly condescending. I think you should show a little bit more respect your fellow freelancers and consider wording things in a way that isnt meant to highlight how stupid you think they are.

How would it be grossly unfair? Both parties would have to agree to it. I regularly turn away clients who want to hire me and would gladly sign away their rights to reviewing me. I don’t think they would consider this unfair. Also, a $200 contract recently reduced my JSS by 1%. I have ~$160k in 2 year earnings and they left no negative public feedback. That is what actually seems unfair.

It would increase the GMV by increasing the amount of projects that are possible for freelancers like me to take on. The current system is in a disequilibrium because small projects are disproportionately powerful, even after accounting for a dollar-weighted JSS. Correcting the disequilibrium would lead to more projects being matched with qualified freelancers and more money spent on the platform, which would result in a larger GMV.

Christine A · Apr 3, 2021 05:33:17 AM

Joseph O wrote:

It would increase the GMV by increasing the amount of projects that are possible for freelancers like me to take on. The current system is in a disequilibrium because small projects are disproportionately powerful, even after accounting for a dollar-weighted JSS. Correcting the disequilibrium would lead to more projects being matched with qualified freelancers and more money spent on the platform, which would result in a larger GMV.

I have to confess that I'm completely failing to see any benefits to clients or to Upwork. If I were a client and a freelancer said to me, "Okay, I'll do your project, but you have to agree not to leave me any review" my response would be "absolutely not!". Why would any client want to hire a freelancer who refuses to take any responsibility for the outcome?

Also, telling a client that you won't work for them unless they agree not to leave feedback? That's feedback manipulation, which is against the rules.

It's all well and good to say that your own clients would have no problem with this. Unfortunately, Upwork's policies apply to all clients, not just yours.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand what you're saying. I've turned down projects whenever I get any hint that a client might be difficult and tank my JSS, and I'd make a lot more money if I didn't have these worries. But that's the whole point of the JSS. Upwork WANTS us to be worried about getting bad ratings, because then we won't take on projects if we're not certain that we're the right person for the job, and we'll make sure that we always do our best work for clients. I don't think they're going to change the system to make it easier for us.