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Re: Feedback Removal

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Community Guru
Abinadab A Member Since: Sep 26, 2016
21 of 118

Will L wrote:

Lena,

 

This new policy, which has not previously been communicated to me as a freelancer, is quite simply ridiculous.

As Upwork gets larger, we can expect that more and more palpable changes will be made to the site without prior notice.

It is everything but ideal.

But it's inevitable.

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Community Guru
Will L Member Since: Jul 9, 2015
22 of 118

No, Abinadab, it is neither inevitable nor acceptable that Upwork makes significant changes to its policies and terms of service without notifying its customers (both clients and freelancers).

 

No company or entity is so large that it should think it can make such important changes without notice.

 

This sort of thing might be common in your market, but I have accounts with some of the largest banks and credit card companies in the world and they always notify me when they are making a significant change in the terms of my relationship with them.

 

We should expect no less of Upwork.

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Community Guru
Abinadab A Member Since: Sep 26, 2016
23 of 118

Please don't conflate this with terms of relationship.

It's not necessarily the same: of course they (Upwork) are required to, and they do inform of material changes to the terms of service.

Same as your bank. Same as Paypal. Same as facebook.

 

But does Facebook or LinkedIn, for example, inform you of every material change to the features on their platform? The platform is unweidly and new things are added (or dropped) almost everyday. It's not a bank

On IT platforms like these, it might be possible to give notice of every material change in the features available.

But it may not always be practicable.

 

ETA: I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the ToS you agreed to use the platform on an as-is basis, and that changes might be brought to the site's features/functionalities with or without prior notice.

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Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
24 of 118

Lena E wrote:
Hi Oroyinka and Petra,
 
I can confirm that the information shared by the support agent is correct. We recently changed this process just a few weeks ago. For Top Rated feedback removal the process is that feedback cannot be removed before 14 days have passed since the contract was ended. Otherwise, until 14 days has passed, the change window isn't final and feedback may be edited by the other party.

When both parties have lleft feedback, no changes are possible unless they click on "enable XYZ to change feedback."

 

If this were to be true (and I do not believe it is) that would be a disgrace. It would condemn top rated  freelancers to a JSS drop for certain and to 2 weeks with bad feedback on their profile. It can, timed badly, even lock them out of the top rated program completely.

 

Private feedback can't be changed anyway, so what in the word would be the point? And when you get poor feedback on Saturday, lose your top rated status on Sunday, you only have 7 days to remove it, but can't request removal for 14? I don't think so.......


Are you sure that's not when a freelancer is just trying to dispute feedback?


I can not believe this change was really made. There must be a misunderstanding or crossed wires or miscommunication. 

 

Upwork wouldn't do that. Or would they?

 

I believe that 14 day thing it is for when freelancers try to dispute feedback, not when a freelancer wants to use their perk. That just simply can't be true. It's too (self-edited for community guidelines) to be true. Even on Upwork.

 

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Active Member
OROYINKA P Member Since: Feb 12, 2019
25 of 118
Okay, but this will have affected my job success score.

If after 14days, I request for a feedback removal change, will my job success score that was affected be updated so as to negate the effect it had previously .
Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
26 of 118

OROYINKA P wrote:
Okay, but this will have affected my job success score.

If after 14days, I request for a feedback removal change, will my job success score that was affected be updated so as to negate the effect it had previously .

Yes it will, but not until the next update and I still don't believe that this is correct because it would be the most ridiculously silly change I have seen in a very long time, if ever.

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Community Guru
Will L Member Since: Jul 9, 2015
27 of 118
In my limited experience, the JSS will eventually be re-calculated
excluding the removed feedback, but the 13 of 16 weeks calculation will
nevertheless record your JSS as having dipped below 90 for a week (if
that's the effect of the original feedback).

If your JSS did not.drop below 90 due to the original feedback, it won't
matter as much in the long run.
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Community Leader
Jared K Member Since: Dec 12, 2015
28 of 118

Can any of the mods tell us why this wasn't in the announcements? 

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Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
29 of 118

Lena E wrote:

I can confirm that the information shared by the support agent is correct. We recently changed this process just a few weeks ago. For Top Rated feedback removal the process is that feedback cannot be removed before 14 days have passed since the contract was ended.  

I'd like to circle back to this, if I may. The explanation is flawed and does not make sense.

 


Lena E wrote:
Otherwise, until 14 days has passed, the change window isn't final and feedback may be edited by the other party. 

What "change window?" There *is* no change window that runs from closing the contract to 14 days later. Once a party has left feedback, they can not change it unless the other party enabled changes. In that case, they can indeed change feedback for 14 days, several times if they like, which is in itself all wrong but that's another mess, not connected to this one.

 

Even if that was the misguided plan, how in the world would delaying the use of the perk for 14 days from when the contract was closed address anything to do with the change window, which needs activating by the parties and can be activated even after the 14 days? And is a completely different process?

 

Why would Upwork make such a massive and damaging change to address an issue that doesn't exist in the first place? That would be plain idiotic!

 

Now had the OP used the "enable client to change feedback" function, it WOULD make a bit of sense, as Upwork might remove the feedback, but the client could leave feedback again up to 14 days after the "change feedback" button was clicked.

 

But that doesn't justify not allowing any feedback removal for top rated freelancers until 14 days of the contract being closed, because without enabling the feedback change, there is no "change window."

 

ONLY if a freelancer enabled "Allow client to change feedback" prior to requesting the feedback removal would such a policy make any sense at all, because in that case the client could leave feedback again, but not during the 14 days from the end of the contract, but 14 days from when the change function was enabled.

 

Say the freelancer doesn't notice the poor feedback for 10 days because they were on holiday. So they enable the feedback change and the client does not change feedback. So the freelancer, 12 days after the contract closed, decides to use the perk. On day 14 Upwork removes the feedback, but the "change window" is actually still open for another 10 days...

 

Feedback changes can be enabled months after the contract ended. There simply isn't any such thing as a "change window" that begins at the time the contract closed and ends 14 days later. Such a window does not exist and never has.

 

Also, as we all know fully well, the written feedback and the stars are merely a cosmetic flaw. What affects the JSS is the private feedback, which can't be changed at all.

 

While we're at it: Please take a look at this help article called "Enable Freelancer to Change Feedback"

 

 It states that "such changes can only be made one time per contract"

 

On the other hand, in the help article "Enable Clients to Change Feedback" it states that "The window for making changes stays open the full 14 days and your client can make multiple changes during this period."

 

Which is it? Once only? Or multiple? Or one rule for clients (freelancers can change the feedback they left for clients only once) and another for freelancers (clients can spend 2 weeks changing the feedback every hour)?

 

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Community Guru
Kim F Member Since: Aug 26, 2015
30 of 118

"We recently changed this process just a few weeks ago."

 

in terms of: Upwork may, in its sole discretion, amend this Agreement and the other Terms of Service at any time by posting a revised version on the Site. Upwork will provide reasonable advance notice of any amendment that includes a Substantial Change (defined below), by posting the updated Terms of Service on the Site, providing notice on the Site, and/or sending you notice by email.  https://www.upwork.com/legal#useragreement

 

Assuming this isn't regarded as a substantial change, only a revised version of the ToS needs be made available.  As it says above that a change was made 'a few weeks ago' it should be reflected in the ToS. Where do we find it?

 

And why is a newly enforced delay of 14 days not deemed 'substantial'?

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