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Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

Font changed?

Is it my fault or has the forum font become thinner?
Because if they have changed it, it is very difficult to read.

ACCEPTED SOLUTION
Stan's avatar
Stan G Community Manager

Anyone want to confirm it looks better now to *read it* and it only has been changed in the *Freelancers* forum.  We changed the font to 16px and weight to 450.

*Note* There will still be an issue with italics, and the font size will still be smaller when you write a post / in various other spots. For our engineering friends out there, I am very literally putting in an override to change the font in a few spots right now.

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Stan's avatar
Stan G Community Manager

Just so we get definitions right - Most IT teams in a company are who handle managed devices/software (My company laptop, our internal network, OKTA, is all managed by IT).

Upwork itself is built/owned by our product organization, which is made up of endless teams who work on different portions of Upwork.

Community is a bit unique. We don't fit into the usual structure, and you will find Community sitting under different teams at every organization you look at. Sometimes it is Customer Support, sometimes it is Marketing, and sometimes it is somewhere else entirely, or split between multiple teams.

In our organization, we now sit within Customer Support.  Part of my team includes a technology manager and our two engineers (I say 1.5 as one of them works part-time). They work primarily on the Khoros platform. Khoros is a Community platform, essentially forums, blogs, knowledge bases, groups. They offer an out of box cookie cutter experience, which a lot of our forum functionality is. 

 

On our homepage for for example, this "Recent Forum Activity" component is entirely built in-house. Khoros offers no component to easily filter through these options, so we built it. As with endless things we do, our plan we to also add these filters to each indiivdual forum, but unfortunatley we haven't made it that far. Our Academy is built entirely in-house. There is no functionality within Khoros to do any sort of learning/training, so we did the next best thing and built it. We could spend all day on why we built it ourselves instead of purchasing an off the shelf LMS/LRS system, but regardless, we built and maintain that entire platform, yet we are utilizing Khoros as the backend platform that powers it.

 

Khoros pushes updates out every ~6 weeks or so that are platform updates. These updates are pushed out regardless if we like them or not as happens with many SAAS companies but they won't (usually) change any styling/front end functionality. At times, these can introduce bugs, sometimes in major ways, sometimes in minor ways. For example, we currently have a bug where we can't invite folks to our events under certain circumstances. Only a few community members would notice it, but its a huge deal for us on the Groups side.

At the end of the day, we can in general make any changes we want - The platform has API's for the vast majority of it, and we leveraged those to create all that you see in Academy. This also allows us to do various integrations we have between the Zendesk (which our Help Center uses), Coda, and Upwork itself. We spend much of dev resources in Academy over the past year though, and have pushing many issues down the road for the next gen platform update ("Aurora" is the Khoros term for it). In this case, Upwork made a branding change, we ourselves updated the font to match that, and it didn't look as good as we hoped. We're still working to fix it, this is a great example of where a vendor can cause us a delay. Normally, we can push out a change immediately. In this situation, we have an open ticket with our vendor, and as it requires a backend change, we're not able to revert our own change, until they unlock our instance, which requires us to go do a Q/A, which in turn required our engineer to be here to do that. So we're going through the stages of rolling back all of these steps to get to a point of being able to revert a font change.  


For what it's worth, you can Google "community /t5/" to find endless examples of Khoros communities.  Atlassian is by far one of my favorites. 

https://community.atlassian.com/
https://community.fabric.microsoft.com/t5/Power-BI-forums/ct-p/powerbi
https://www.sellercommunity.com/t5/Seller-Community-US/ct-p/Seller_Community_US?profile.language=en

I'm not sure you or anyone cared for that much detail, but I had 5 minutes free so you got the extended version of the answer.

(Does anyone care about any of this stuff?  We've long talked about doing a blog series on what/how/why Community and Academy works, how it is all built, why we prioritize the work we do, etc). My team tries to keep me hidden in the basement and away from customers though.

Clark's avatar
Clark S Community Member

I think some folks care about how the Community works--whether it's the interface/GUI or back-end functionality, so it's great that you can be open about it.

 

I've seen a few Khoros community management forums before (I can't remember where) so I know several things can be changed, while others require interaction with the vendor--(I'm sure that's a headache, at times!)

Radia's avatar
Radia L Community Member

Not actually about technical things, but I wrote many times that it's now normal to have a community forum to help with company's financials. Many bigger companies also do that. But, they need to try to maintain the people's loyalty.

 

Otherwise, at least me, I'm now not too interested in answering newbie's simple repeated questions that came everyday. I'll let the mods and ChatGPT copypasters to answer them instead, where it makes me happy to see some wrong answers to newb's questions just go "unnoticed" 👍

 

You favor people who paste ChatGPT, or just being overly **bleep**, over people who are knowledgeable, in the name of 'community guidelines'.

 

You should at least adjust the guidelines to also disallow **bleep** and ChatGPT people, although I also knew the higher ups most likely don't see any real problem about it (and they also loved AI so much) so I'll just observe. (Edited to add that I use AIs, but hate people pasting ChatGPT without understanding it. Some forums utilize AI in a definitely better way than how the entire Upwork uses it, but they forbid people pasting AI answers in their forum).

 

And. it's up to you/them to decide what to use as the base for the forum. But the font weight and style problems I mentioned are real and current problems. You don't check in one browser and conclude there's no problem.

 

--

 

And I actually also realized that it's probably just how this forum set-up. Most mods are just canned reponse operators, not actual "moderators on normal Community Forums". Your long posts are actually out of the Upwork norm and I wouldn't be surprised if you'll get some kind of warnings for that 😅

 

Stan's avatar
Stan G Community Manager

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Coffee-Break/Ask-Me-Almost-Anything-about-the-Upwork-Community/m-p/1...

I made a more topic specific thread if you want to ask any AI / Etc questions.

Jeanne's avatar
Jeanne H Community Member

Cool. Thanks!

Stan's avatar
Stan G Community Manager

Yes, we pushed a change on Friday that is part of an Upwork brand change that we finally got to. In these cases, it's an overall Upwork change we just got around to implementing. With that said, if it doesn't work out for our site, we can look to change it. We try to maintain as close to a 1:1 standard with the greater organization, but even I'll admit I am having trouble with how skinny this is. (I am not a font person, I usually can't even tell it has changed). 

And as I'm on my phone, I can't even check what font we have running right now to confirm it's even working. We'll confirm it's all working tomorrow morning for sure.

Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

Well, I hope you revert the changes.
If it's a new font, at least use BOLD.
This is awkward and does not comply with accessibility, since even those of us who see well can't see it properly.

Ravindra's avatar
Ravindra B Community Member


 wrote:

With that said, if it doesn't work out for our site, we can look to change it.


How many freelancers need to weigh in before Upwork concludes that this change is not working out?

 

"Certa bonum certamen"
Stan's avatar
Stan G Community Manager

7 people. We're going to work on rolling it back, which we hoped to already have done, but with our engineer on PTO, we're trying to do it without breaking the universe.

*Cura et Celeritas*

Ravindra's avatar
Ravindra B Community Member


 wrote:

7 people. We're going to work on rolling it back, which we hoped to already have done, but with our engineer on PTO, we're trying to do it without breaking the universe.

*Cura et Celeritas*


No, we certainly don't want to wreck the universe! 😀

 

"Certa bonum certamen"
Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

Since you're going to work on fixing it, maybe (if they're going to count on you, you'll be 2.5 engineers) you can do something so that loading any forum thread isn't frustrating?
Any other website or forum or social network works fast for me.
The only page I have loading problems with is the forums. It starts loading and then just keeps going around until it reads the entire page. Sometimes the browser even tells me if I want to wait or close the page.

By the way, I'm interested too, if you could answer Jeanne's question about how the forum really works.

Stan's avatar
Stan G Community Manager

Short term answer - We're working on it by making some optimizations over the coming month. Everyone is sick of me asking about it as well. Longer term answer - We've been planning to move to the next gen version of our Community platform which would resolve a magnitude of issues currently causing the slow downs. Unfortunately, it had been delayed time and again, which kept pushing us back. With that said, we're planning to kick off work on it in at the end of the year finally, and we'll get moved onto it as soon as possible from there.
Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

So, you're supposed to change the font quickly, right?
And we'll have to put up with the slowness until next year, right?

Another thing, I get upvote emails, but, for example, I haven't received an email with your response. It's happened to me more often lately. It's this thread in particular, I haven't received notifications for some of the posts, and that's even though I started the thread.

Stan's avatar
Stan G Community Manager

I checked your settings, and it does look like you should be receiving notifications as they happen. I tried resetting a few of them, but will have Morgan on my team follow up to confirm it's working as it should. These are the types of issues where we may have to open a ticket with our vendor if the problem persists to see the logs on their side of what is happening.  And as crazy as it sounds, we have found the classic geek joke around 'have you tried turning it off and back on again" actually does resolve a lot of little problems on our Community platform.

 

Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

Thanks.

FYI, I've received emails about two upvotes, but not for Radia and Clark's posts other than yours.

Morgan's avatar
Morgan B Community Manager

Hi Maria.
I've made a change to your profile notification settings this morning and verified that you are subscribed to this topic.

You should now receive email notifications for comments on posts you engage with.
Please let me know if you didnt recieve an email about this reply!


Morgan

Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

Thanks, I got it.
Anyway, before, when I created a thread or replied to a post, I received emails about the thread's activity without having to subscribe. Has that changed? Do I have to subscribe to any thread even if I've written in it or is that already established by what you've done?

Stan's avatar
Stan G Community Manager

I'm first to admit the notification settings are confusing if it still doesn't work, you can try flipping these two settings as well.  I'm actually trying to find a well written definition of how all of these work, but I can't find one of those at the moment either (I spend a lot of time in our vendors own community trying to figure out things we don't know).

StanG_0-1725998728449.png

 

Clark's avatar
Clark S Community Member

Stan,

 

Thanks for the update.

 

WCAG guidelines and Section 508 guidelines may not specify typefaces or dictate many elements of typefaces or fonts, but font choice and style have a huge impact on accessibility. This is something that graphic designers, web designers, illustrators, display designers, and many others pay attention to because presentation and readability are important.


The sans-serif font being used is fine, but as everyone, including you, has pointed out, the font weight is too light (i.e., weight 300 or less as Radia mentioned) and difficult to read. It doesn't provide sufficient contrast between the black text and white background. I have perfect vision and it strains my eyes, so I can imagine how bad it is for those with imperfect or impaired vision.

 

I understand if Upwork is making a company-wide brand change across its platforms, but the Community forums are a bit "separate," no? It would be great if you guys could simply undo the change.

Mariusz's avatar
Mariusz O Community Member

european74_0-1725877461191.png

The font looks hard to read.

Stan's avatar
Stan G Community Manager

Anyone want to confirm it looks better now to *read it* and it only has been changed in the *Freelancers* forum.  We changed the font to 16px and weight to 450.

*Note* There will still be an issue with italics, and the font size will still be smaller when you write a post / in various other spots. For our engineering friends out there, I am very literally putting in an override to change the font in a few spots right now.

Ravindra's avatar
Ravindra B Community Member

 

Yes, it is a whole lot better.

 

"Certa bonum certamen"
Maria's avatar
Maria T Community Member

Yes, it reads well now.
It seems a bit big to me, but I'm not going to complain about that, just in case something else breaks 🙂
I'm giving your post as a solution, while I wait for you to do something about the loading speed, it's a bit frustrating.

 

m_terrazas_0-1725997016875.png

 

Clark's avatar
Clark S Community Member

Much better!.

 

Thank you and the entire Community team for reversing the font style changes.

Jeanne's avatar
Jeanne H Community Member

Much improved. Thank you!