Dec 19, 2022 04:21:16 AM Edited Dec 19, 2022 04:28:52 AM by Hrant P
I’m a graphic designer. I worked on one project from Nov 28 – Dec 3. Before starting, the client asked me to send him x% of my earnings (via Payoneer) after receiving them, as the owner of that project is not him but another person. We made an agreement and I started. Then I did not know that’s against the rules of Upwork (but the question is not only about that). Everything was going successfully. The client was satisfied with the process. He ended the contract by saying that we will continue in the next week and gave the highest feedback. Then, after about a week, some part ($129) of my earnings ($983) automatically was refunded (with a reasoning of low activity, which is nonsense)? He cut that from his percentage. Then, we offered to work on another project (directly for his client). My account was temporarily placed on hold after I accepted that offer. And then, another $700 was again automatically refunded to the client who is considered a “fraud” by Upwork Support team. So, we have a situation, where Upwork helps (maybe unintentionally) fraud people against his freelancers. That’s a fact for me. You spend about 40 hours, hurt your eyes, and then Upwork takes your earnings easily and sends them back to that “fraud” client. And more absurd is that they ‘strongly suggest I contact my client to ask for a bonus payment’. All that time they sent me Upwork Hourly Protection link several times instead of clearly answering why my 6 hours (from 39:20 hours) were logged according to the guidelines, but the other 33 - were not. No appropriate and clear answer, e.g., “You don't have an ID Verification Badge.”, or “Your client did not use a verified billing method.”, etc. When I asked if the only reason for that refund is that I forwarded some part of the money back to the clients, they again sent the same link. I’ve already spent 5-6 days on that pointless discussions. One more absurd sentence from the last response: “Moving forward, to avoid this thing happening again, please use the Upwork Team app to track your time...”. What I should use when working on an hourly contract???… Of course Upwork Team app. Moreover, I didn’t add manual time but used only the tracker. I don’t know how to talk with them. I have a feeling that they copy and paste readymade texts instead of addressing my issues directly.
Dec 19, 2022 05:13:32 AM Edited Dec 19, 2022 05:16:02 AM by Martina P
Before starting, the client asked me to send him x% of my earnings (via Payoneer) after receiving them, as the owner of that project is not him but another person.
It should have stopped there. You were not even hired yet. This kind of arrangement is clearly fraud, money laundering, credit card theft, or a combination of the above.
Upwork is not supporting fraud, and they can't monitor each and every thing clients and freelancers do. The freelancer has to be trusted to:
When fraud is identified, upwork takes action, which is exactly what they did. Both parties taking part in these things are complicit in fraud. You will not get paid even if you recorded hours correctly, since fraud in never covered.
Dec 19, 2022 05:37:21 AM Edited Dec 19, 2022 05:37:37 AM by Hrant P
Thanks for the response.
By the way, I was hired, did the work, got my money, and then send him some % via Payoneer.
But in that case, why I received this: "...After your work diary is reviewed Upwork steps in and pays you for the time logged that meets Upwork Hourly Protection Criteria.
The review of your work diary showed low activity, which is not guaranteed for payment. In order to ensure your hours are all paid for even when your client's payment method fails, you will need to log time following the criteria listed here." When I asked which criteria I did not follow, I got no clear answer.
And why my 6 hours (from 39:20 hours) were logged according to the guidelines, but the other 33 - were not in that case? I should not be paid generally according to you, yes?
Dec 19, 2022 10:44:47 AM Edited Dec 19, 2022 10:45:34 AM by Christine A
Why would the client need you to send a percentage of your payment via Payoneeer? That makes no sense whatsoever, and most people would have realised that they were taking part in something shady at that point.
I guess you didn't read this key part of Upwork's payment protection policy: "The following cases do not qualify for payment protection: ....
Dec 21, 2022 11:28:35 AM by Tiffany S
Low activity is the explanation that you are claiming you didn't get.
Activity levels are measured per 10 minute segment. Apparently, six of your hours showed sufficient activity to qualify for payment protection.
Dec 19, 2022 07:05:14 AM Edited Dec 19, 2022 07:07:19 AM by Martina P
By the way, I was hired, did the work, got my money, and then send him some % via Payoneer.
This is a serious violation of ToS. It sounds like you are still not aware that no serious client would ever ask a freelancer to do something like this. You should not participate in activities that are strictly forbidden by ToS. I don't know why you draw attention to it by posting on a public forum.
In cases like this, usually the client will fail to pay, and the freelancer loses his own money, and this would not be upwork's fault. I personally don't want my fees to go towards paying for fraudulent activity. Upwork is doing the right thing not paying for fraud.
Dec 19, 2022 07:16:54 AM Edited Dec 19, 2022 07:17:41 AM by Will L
It isn't obvious that either the client or Upwork was adversely affected by the repayment to the client by the freelancer, so I don't see how this is a "serious violation of ToS." A violation, yes. A "serious" violation. Not necessarily.
Upwork earned its fees in full. The client got their project completed below the cost originally agreed to.
That isn't to say any freelancer should ever agree to such an arrangement. All payments between freelancer and client should go through Upwork's payment system. Anything else is asking for trouble. And violates Upwork's Terms of Service, which many freelancers and clients apparently never read in full.
I'd guess this was likely a case where the client defrauded his own employer by paying the freelancer with his boss's credit card and getting a kickback from freelancer, unbeknownst to the boss. But I would not be surprised if we aren't being told all the facts here.
Dec 19, 2022 08:46:11 AM by Hrant P
Dec 19, 2022 10:29:03 AM by Martina P
Of course the client planned that in advance. He is a scammer.
Dec 19, 2022 10:27:37 AM by Martina P
Paying outside of upwork is the biggest sin on upwork. It is a very very serious violation. One that get's one suspended. Not getting more serious than that.
Dec 20, 2022 04:48:42 AM Edited Dec 20, 2022 04:50:38 AM by Will L
Martina,
Having a client pay a freelancer outside Upwork deprives Upwork of its fee income. That should be a serious issue for Upwork, which eventually needs to report profitable operations to its shareholders.
Having a freelancer pay money to a client outside Upwork deprives Upwork of nothing other than control of freelancers' actions.
If the amounts involved are very large (define that as you wish) then a major concern for Upwork might be money laundering. If the amounts involved are small, the activity is unlikely to be money laundering. (Even the US government's rules related to fighting money laundering only require US banks to report cash transactions above $10,000.)
Regardless, the takeaway for all Upwork clients and freelancers is not to make any payments outside Upwork. Just say, "No."
Dec 20, 2022 11:25:20 AM by Martina P
That is a valid point, but upwork does not differentiate. They explicitely forbid payments "received or paid" outside of platform.
Dec 19, 2022 08:30:49 AM by Nikola S
Hi Hrant,
Dec 19, 2022 11:19:32 AM by Nathan R
I've get this scam all the time, and I have gotten it on UpWork, but oddly only before I actually landed a client. They offer to pay you a very tempting rate/price for a job and offer to overpay you and ask you to they take the overpayment and pay someone else, either a sub-contractor or other party he can't pay dirtectly. The reason often make little sense. The trick is they pay you using a stolen card or account.
If they just used the stolen card themselves they know itll get flagged and no purchase will go through. By paying you, then having you pay someone else with your valid account, they essentially wash the cash. Then when the original charge gets flagged the credit card company takes the money back, leaving you stuck with whatever amount you forwarded.
Dec 19, 2022 11:36:22 AM by Robert D
I am not sure but maybe they are overwhelmed. I am currently having an issue with verification of my ID that is preventing me from applying to jobs and I never get a reply or solution, I just get locked out of the page. I am not sure how their support operated but it would really be nice if they had a phone option.
Dec 19, 2022 11:34:09 PM by Jonathan L
They have been overwhelmed for a couple of months now. As I understand it, they have been hiring agents to deal with the mass uptick.
The sad thing is, I suspect much of the uptick is caused by a flood of new freelancers (and to a much lesser degree, clients) who don't learn anything about the platform's functions and Terms of Service before they begin. These new users then contact Support instead of searching for the answers in the Support page. Some of them wind their way over here, posting questions that show that they obviously did not read any of the material.
Dec 20, 2022 02:48:40 PM by Jeanne H
The moment you went outside of Upwork with financial transactions with no contract, everything changes. Upwork does not support such activities and if you violate the Terms of Service, they may not pay you a cent. When you broke the rules in a big way, you lost any help from Upwork.
There are cases where the freelancer doesn't use the mouse or keyboard enough to qualify for protected hours. I don't think your problem is tracking, but violating the important rules.
Dec 21, 2022 05:27:50 AM by Hrant P
Thank you for the response. I have some objections about Upwork Terms of Services, but now the question is not about that. Their support service annoyed me very much. That's why I posted here.
Dec 21, 2022 06:07:10 AM by Hrant P
Is it normal and logical if they take the most part of your earnings and send them back to a client who frauds all, instead of doing some actions against him (OC taking into consideration my fault)?
That's why now I'm thinking to continue using Upwork or not.
Thanks for your responses and recommendations.
Dec 21, 2022 06:33:32 AM by Will L
All freelancers who do fixed price projects, or who don't fully comply with Upwork's requirements for hourly product protection, should understand that Upwork will require return of all funds those freelancers have received on projects where the "client" either fraudulently used a payment method or requested a chargeback from the card issuing bank.
There is no enforceable payment protection on fixed price projects. Upwork's payment protection on hourly projects is excellent for the most part.
Dec 21, 2022 11:19:00 AM by Jeanne H
Some like hourly, some like fixed price. I have never used hourly, and I will not. The work I do, and the way I work, does not fit into neat little tracking points. However, I have never been scammed, and I know many other freelancers who use fixed price as well. I always make sure the client has money in escrow, and more importantly, when we have our chat before the job, which I insist on, I fully explore the client's intentions and objectives.
It's more important to talk to the client and get a feel for their intent than how your hours are tracked in terms of getting scammed.
Dec 21, 2022 08:12:32 AM by Will L
What is your point, Martina?
If hourly client doesn't pay, Upwork doesn't get its fee but does pay the freelancer what's due under the terms of its excellent hourly payment protection.
If fixed price client doesn't pay, Upwork doesn't get its fee and freelancer is not paid for work performed.
Dec 21, 2022 09:45:18 AM by Martina P
My point is that people are constantly complaining that upwork should pay them, even if the client never paid upwork, because that's what the fees are for. I am pointing out that upwork does not get a fee when the client does not pay, which is always missed by the complainers.
Dec 21, 2022 08:22:39 AM Edited Dec 21, 2022 08:25:17 AM by Jessica D
If there was no Upwork involved, and you managed to find this client on your own, and this same exact thing happened... What would you do?
How would you pay yourself after being defrauded if you were a freelancer without Upwork? What action would you take that would be different and ensure that you got the money from a scam client that didn't actually end up paying anyone at all?
I am asking because I was a freelancer for about 8 years before I came onto Upwork and when I started out, I came across people and scams like these. People don't pay you and you're out of luck, and need to get back to marketing and hopefully find something to replace it. I've had perfectly legit jobs where clients didn't feel like paying and just disappeared. Even WITH contracts in place.
Being scammed sucks, and realizing it happened because you didn't read the TOS sucks, BUT Upwork is not at fault or responsible for compensating you for either of those.
Upwork is also a MUCH safer place to do business for freelancers because of their TOS and the fact that they facilitate all of this. Nothing is ever perfect, but we should learn and grow from our mistakes instead of placing blame.
I would also consider researching into what life is like for solo freelancers out on their own, you might end up with a different opinion.
ETA: This wasn't intentially supposed to be Upwork propaganda but I feel like it turned out like that, I just wanted to point out that you'd be in this situation whether Upwork was involved or not.
Your time has been wasted, but who can pay you when no money has been paid?
Dec 21, 2022 08:44:34 AM Edited Dec 21, 2022 08:46:03 AM by Will L
All true, Jessica.
But Upwork shouldn't refer to "payment protection" on fixed price projects. There is none that is enforceable, compared to what "payment protection" means in regards to properly-documented hourly project payments.
By the way, do you know whether Upwork actually debits a client's credit card in full when an amount is shown in "escrow," or is there no funding actually taken from the client's payment method into "escrow" until the freelancer formally submits work under a milestone that is shown as "funded"?
Dec 21, 2022 08:54:35 AM by Jessica D
Hey Will, yes they do, at least the first milestone. Here is Upwork's article on that: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068208-Escrow-for-Fixed-Price-Jobs
And Upwork's payment protection on Fixed priced jobs is simple.
-If the client doesn't have a verified payment method, you aren't protected.
-If you are doing work above and beyond what is in Escrow (ie starting an unfunded milestone early) you aren't protected.
-If the milestone isn't activated or funded, you aren't protected.
-If you did the work but the client doesn't want to approve or tried to cancel... dispute it.
A lot of my work is fixed-priced, I have had a few fixed-priced projects where I submitted the work, and the client just... disappears. 14 days later my escrow payment is released to me. That is payment protection.
Dec 21, 2022 09:43:24 AM by Will L
Yes, Jessica, what you describe is a certain level of protection.
But if an hourly client has used a fraudulent payment method or the issuing bank issued a chargeback, the freelancer still gets paid in full by Upwork.
Under either of those situations with a fixed price project, the freelancer doesn't get paid and actually has to return related funds previously paid out to the freelancer by Upwork.
It has been a while since I used a fixed price contract, but I remember there being a delay in releasing payment to the freelancer even if "escrow" had been in place for many days or even weeks. I don't know why payment that was actually available in "escrow" needed to be delayed once the client authorized release of payment to the freelancer.
At any rate, payment "protection" under hourly contracts is fundamentally more robust than with fixed price projects. New freelancers should fully understand these differences, which can only be discovered by a) parsing through the relevant posts on this message board or b) experiencing the unpleasant reversal of payments due or payments already received.
Dec 21, 2022 05:10:38 PM by Jared K
You actually unintentionally did fraud by circumventing Upwork's payment sysemt. You're actually stealing from Upwork by doing that and you're only inviting more scammer to the platform.
Dec 21, 2022 09:14:30 AM by William T C
Hey Hrant, you must stay on Upwork if you want to be protected and get paid.
I can't speak to your specific client situation, however in the future pick your clients more carefully and stay on Upwork's system if you want to get paid and follow the Terms of Use.
I always use Milestones to avoid any potential issues that might arrive due to using a Tracking App, however I know every Freelancer's situation is different.
Thanks!
Dec 21, 2022 11:27:14 AM by Tiffany S
100% of what went wrong here is attributable to you not learning how to use Upwork before you embarked on this project. (Or perhaps you knowingly engaged in a scam, but I'll assume you were an innocent victim)
It's true that customer service isn't great here, but the appropriate Upwork response to the story you've told above is to ban you from the site for repeated TOS violations.