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mdomen
Community Member

Has Anyone Ever Dealt With This?

I have an Upwork customer who requested a legal contract. I asked for clarification. He wanted to talk by phone. I explained to him on the phone that a contract was not what he was asking for and explained the legal documents that he needed as an employer. He then sent an offer but the titles of the milestones were incorrect. I emailed him to tell him exactly what the milestones should say - that I was drafting two documents for him, not three, and I stated what they were. Fast forward....

 

After a week of not responding to me because he said communicating through Upwork was too difficult, he told me to get the info from his assistant. I did. I sent the draft of the document almost 2 weeks ago and I texted, called, and emailed asking him what the hold up was in approving the milestone. Well, today, almost 2 weeks after I asked to be paid, he claims he wanted a handbook. Nooooo. We never discussed doing a handbook. Emails prove that. 

 

Am I going to get **Edited for community guidelines* on this and not ever get paid? Anyone dealt with someone like this?

 

 

13 REPLIES 13
jr-translation
Community Member


Millie D wrote:

I have an Upwork customer who requested a legal contract. I asked for clarification. He wanted to talk by phone. I explained to him on the phone that a contract was not what he was asking for and explained the legal documents that he needed as an employer. He then sent an offer but the titles of the milestones were incorrect. I emailed him to tell him exactly what the milestones should say - that I was drafting two documents for him, not three, and I stated what they were. Fast forward....

 

After a week of not responding to me because he said communicating through Upwork was too difficult, he told me to get the info from his assistant. I did. I sent the draft of the document almost 2 weeks ago and I texted, called, and emailed asking him what the hold up was in approving the milestone. Well, today, almost 2 weeks after I asked to be paid, he claims he wanted a handbook. Nooooo. We never discussed doing a handbook. Emails prove that. 

 

Am I going to get **Edited for community guidelines* on this and not ever get paid? Anyone dealt with someone like this?


I stick to the ToS and get paid. I never had an issue like that.

 

At what point during the exchange did you leave Upwork?

You know that the client has 14 days to review the work and there is absolutely no reason to pester him, right?

Ambiguity means "hourly contract."

??? Not sure I follow.

re: “Not sure I follow.”

 

There was ambiguity in the client’s directions and in the client’s understanding of what needs to be done.

 

That means that this is not supposed to be a fixed-price contract. It is supposed to be an hourly contract.

I  too  stick to the Terms of Service.  I did everything as I normally do and have done for years. I've never had anyone be this non-responsive.  I never left Upwork. Not  sure what you mean. He wanted me to send stuff to his assistant who did not have access to his Upwork account. I sent him everything through Upwork's email system. 

 

Yes, I know they have 14 days but what happened here is that it has now been several weeks after the initial deadline and now, on the 10th  day, he claims that the document is not what he asked for and so that restarts the 14 days and so, as of now, it will be over a month since I performed the work and sent the document. 

tlbp
Community Member

I'm  a writer so I usually get a brief or a written description of what the client wants. Occasionally a client and I will disagree over whether I've met the brief (although that happens less often as I gain more experience). 

In your situation, you tried to create a job with a client who couldn't define what he wanted. That was a grievous error. Your description of the situation highlights several indicators that you did not have enough accurate information from the client to succeed. 

 

Was the milestone funded? You can try to dispute if he refuses to pay. The process, IIRC, goes like this:

First, the client gets 14 days to review after you submit for payment. If you resubmit during that period, the 14-days starts over. I believe, if the client formally requests revisions (through the milestone function) this cancels the countdown entirely and you have to resubmit. 

 

If you and the client are at an impasses where payment is not being released and the client is continually requesting revisions, then you have to file a dispute to force the issue. This is only applicable for funded milestones. You won't get any relief if the milestone wasn't funded.

 

Once one of you disputes, an Upwork mediator will attempt to get  you to come to an agreement. But, the mediator won't judge between you. (From what I have read, the help may be more or less aggressive when it comes to whom they try to get to compromise and how much.) 

 

If no one budges at the mediation (dispute) stage, then you have to decide to walk away or pay for arbitration. 

 

IMO, though, your best way to profit from this experience is to learn what type of clients to avoid.

 

mdomen
Community Member

Yes, his initial job posting was unclear and I mentioned that in my proposal - that I would need further explanation of what he was needing.  This is very common since many laypersons do  not understand "legalese" and what the terms are for things in the law. That is why we had a back and forth in writing and then again, after we spoke on the phone and  that is why I kept correcting him prior to accepting the offer.

 

Yes, both milestones appear to have been funded. I'm just unclear as what point I should initiate a dispute since he  just keeps delaying and delaying.

 

I went over a year not doing much on Upwork but before  that, I always had fixed price clients approve quickly, especially when they needed to get the deliverables from the additional milestones.  To wait over a month to be paid, if I even get paid, is crazy.

petra_r
Community Member


Millie D wrote:

 and then again, after we spoke on the phone and  that is why I kept correcting him prior to accepting the offer.


You are not allowed to talk to someone on the phone before a contract is in place. No communication of any kind outside the platform prior to hiring.

 


Millie D wrote:

Yes, both milestones appear to have been funded. I'm just unclear as what point I should initiate a dispute since he  just keeps delaying and delaying.


That isn't even possible. Only the first milestone would be funded. 

 


Millie D wrote:

I'm just unclear as what point I should initiate a dispute since he  just keeps delaying and delaying.


You can dispute the non-release of a milestone but that would probably put an end to the contract. How assertive have you been with the client about the scope of the milestone? How well was it defined? 


 

mdomen
Community Member

In the entire time I've used Upwork, there has always been a phone icon in the Upwork messaging portal and there used to be  a video  chat function as well that looks like it has now  been replaced with something called Loom.  There has always been a reminder  when you type in a phone number that you have to  contract through Upwork and I've always done that. Been on the platform for several years now.

 

The purpose of  the communication before entering into  a contract is to make sure that both parties understand what is  needed. For example, a lot of proposals will just say that they need a "business contract". I then ask what they mean by that and they can't explain and it's about 5 emails  back and forth and so finally they ask to just talk on the phone to explain and if they want a contract in an  area of law that I don't specialize in,  I tell them I can't do the  work.  If I can do the work, then I tell them that they can send me the Offer. When they do, I almost  always correct them on what the Milestone should say so that there are no misunderstandings.

 

When I go to the Job, it says that the  entire amount is in Escrow, not  just the first milestone. 

 

The emails back and forth between us were very specific about what I was drafting. One contract to be used as a template for employees. Somewhere in his mind though  he got it in his head that I was writing  an entire employee handbook for him which makes no sense because there would be no need for the second milestone which was a policy statement for employees. That is why I feel like he is playing some kind of game. One of his excuses was that he was out of town. Who runs a company but doesn't have a smartphone or tablet or laptop when they travel?

petra_r
Community Member


Millie D wrote:

In the entire time I've used Upwork, there has always been a phone icon in the Upwork messaging portal


Ah, OK, so you talked via an Upwork voice-call, which is fine.

 


Millie D wrote:

When I go to the Job, it says that the  entire amount is in Escrow, not just the first milestone.


Then are you sure there are 2 actually set up milestones? Rather than just one? 

 

Either way, you need to either get the client to understand the scope (which is whatever it says on the milestone) or dispute non-release.

 

 

 

re: “Somewhere in his mind though  he got it in his head that I was writing  an entire employee handbook for him which makes no sense because there would be no need for the second milestone which was a policy statement for employees.”

 

If the client is not sure about what he needs or if his needs can’t really be defined clearly, then that means you use an hourly contract.

 

But if - for whatever reason - you enter into a fixed-price contract - then you must stick to the original written task description. If the client tries to veer from that in even the tiniest way then you, as the freelancer,  need to put a stop to it and make it clear that he can’t ask for out of scope work.

 

If the client wants something that is not in the scope of the current task agreement, then that is FINE: But that means that he must release the current escrow payment and create one of the following:

- a new hourly contract

- a new fixed-price contract

- a new milestone within the current fixed-price contract 

 

A client may not hire a freelancer for a fixed-price contract and then ask for something that was not written in the current task agreement unless he releases the current escrow money and sets up a way to pay for that additional work.

tlbp
Community Member


Millie D wrote:

Yes, his initial job posting was unclear and I mentioned that in my proposal - that I would need further explanation of what he was needing.  This is very common since many laypersons do  not understand "legalese" and what the terms are for things in the law. That is why we had a back and forth in writing and then again, after we spoke on the phone and  that is why I kept correcting him prior to accepting the offer.

 

Yes, both milestones appear to have been funded. I'm just unclear as what point I should initiate a dispute since he  just keeps delaying and delaying.

 

I went over a year not doing much on Upwork but before  that, I always had fixed price clients approve quickly, especially when they needed to get the deliverables from the additional milestones.  To wait over a month to be paid, if I even get paid, is crazy.


And in your in-person practice, if a client doesn't understand clearly and demonstrate the ability to restate what it is that you are preparing for them, do you continue forward with the work?

 

IIRC, that's a fast ticket to "I'm not paying for that!" land. At least online they seldom threaten to contact the disciplinary board. 

mdomen
Community Member

"

And in your in-person practice, if a client doesn't understand clearly and demonstrate the ability to restate what it is that you are preparing for them, do you continue forward with the work?

 

IIRC, that's a fast ticket to "I'm not paying for that!" land. At least online they seldom threaten to contact the disciplinary board. "

 

I have never needed an actual legal client to restate what it is that I'm preparing for them. If they want a change, they call and if there is an issue, a conversation is had about  it. Like I said in my original post, I have  never had an issue like this in my 5 years on  Upwork.  Offline, this would never be a disciplinary issue. In fact, it would be a collections issue. Once work has been completed, the client has to pay. They can't say, "Oh, nevermind. Let's pretend you didn't bill any hours and do any work and I'll keep the work you did and refuse to pay you."

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